Prosecuted for travelling using any day return T&Cs

[menmak08]

On the 17th of September 2024 I travelled earlier than I should, but I was spoken to by the trained manager when he checked my ticket but he told me that my ticket is invalid stating that I cannot travel earlier as to when I booked for my travel mentioning that my railcard does not permit me my ticket was a discounted ticket because I have a railcard(network railcard) however I explained to him that the condition which is anytime return allows me to travel with no time restrictions, on on 10th October 2024 I received a letter from the prosecution unit stating 'contravention of railway act', and I was fine for this, I don't know what to do.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you show us the letter you've had from the prosecution unit please? That will help the knowledgable people here to advise you.

 

[Alfonso]

It will be clearer once you have uploaded the information requested by other posters, but it sounds like you have an anytime return (which can be used on any train) with a network railcard discount (which can only be used after 10AM on weekdays, with a few exceptions). It is very rare for anyone to purchase an anytime return with a network card since network cards are generally only valid at the sort of times you can use cheaper off peak tickets. The basic benefits of a network card are shown here: https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/about-the-railcard/using-your-railcard/ (link to network railcard website)

 

[menmak08]

@Alfonso and @1D54 Attached is the 2nd letter received.

 

[Alfonso]

It looks like you only have a couple of days left. I think there are two wise choices and one unwise choice:
Wise choice 1: pay the £126.90 without delay. This may seem a lot but it is an out of court settlement, you will not get a criminal record or have to deal with the legal system.
Wise choice 2: Post all of the relevant information here, with any personal details or reference numbers covered up: people will want to know what train, what time, exactly what ticket to and from where etc. And much more experienced and knowledgeable people than me will check to see if anything was done incorrectly or there is any way out if this. There is very little time before wise choice 1 is taken off the table so if you want to do this, do it very soon.
Unwise choice: pretty much anything else.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Wise choice 1: pay the £126.90 without delay. This may seem a lot but it is an out of court settlement, you will not get a criminal record or have to deal with the legal system.

Realistically, this is the way to go. There are arguments that what it says on the ticket should override what it says on the railcard, but the railways don’t accept those arguments. You would have to go to court to make your case, and even with a good (= expensive) lawyer there would be no guarantee that you would win, in that there are also good arguments in the other direction.

Paying the £126.90 is almost certainly the cheapest and quickest way out of this matter even if it’s not the justest.

(Edited to correct amount to pay)

 

[menmak08]

@Alfonso will look at the options, @notmyrealname Attached is the condition for my ticket.

 

[transportphoto]

@Alfonso will look at the options, @notmyrealname Attached is the condition for my ticket.

Please could you also read the conditions of your Railcard? They need to be read in conjunction with one another.

There’s been a lengthy discussion here recently about the implications of railcard validity upon otherwise Anytime tickets. The concept was picked up on quite widely on social media, and has gained some political traction I believe.

 

[methecooldude]

@Alfonso will look at the options, @notmyrealname Attached is the condition for my ticket.

It's not your Anytime ticket that's the problem, it's the use of the network railcard before 10AM

Using your Railcard - Network Railcard

www.network-railcard.co.uk

• The Railcard discount is valid for journeys made any time on weekends and bank holidays and from 10am Monday to Friday, though some stations may allow you to start your journey earlier

 

[jfollows]

See https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/

4.2. Network Railcard discounts apply for travel at or after 10.00 Monday to Friday (excluding Public Holidays) and any time on weekends.  Discounts apply to services in the Network Railcard area only (see network-railcard.co.uk/map).

I think it would be wise to pay the out of court settlement amount.

 

[methecooldude]

Please could you also read the conditions of your Railcard? They need to be read in conjunction with one another.

There’s been a lengthy discussion here recently about the implications of railcard validity upon otherwise Anytime tickets. The concept was picked up on quite widely on social media, and has gained some political traction I believe.

Which makes me wonder how many threads we are going to see in this fashion

 

[WesternLancer]

@Alfonso and @1D54 Attached is the 2nd letter received.

I think you need to pay this or you will be prosecuted. If you loose when prosecuted the sum you will have to pay in court fine and costs will be notably higher than this and you will also have a criminal record that you will need to declare (eg job applications or at work etc). It’s best to avoid that.

 

[Hadders]

The Network Railcard cannot be used for travel before 10am on weekdays. This is clearly stated on the front of the railcard, I don't know where it is stated if you have a digital version of the railcard but the terms and conditions referred to above also reference this restriction.

The situation has similarities to the issue we have seen with 16-25 and 26-30 railcards but there are key differences. The 16-25 and 26-30 railcards can be used at any time subject to a minimum discounted fare of £12 on weekdays prior to 10am. This restriction is not clearly stated on the railcard, unlike the restriction on the Network Railcard.

My view is that an appeal is unlikely to suceed and I would pay the amount requested to make the matter go away.

 

[jamiearmley]

I might have missed something : but can you tell us where you were travelling from and to?

 

[mad_rich]

The Network Railcard cannot be used for travel before 10am on weekdays. This is clearly stated on the front of the railcard, I don't know where it is stated if you have a digital version of the railcard but the terms and conditions referred to above also reference this restriction.

On mine (Virgin Trains app) it's not on the 'front' of the digital railcard, but appears when you click the (i) icon for more info. It's not exactly prominent, but it does appear on the first page once you've clicked (i).

Your Railcard is not valid before 10:00 Monday to Friday (Excluding public holidays).

A minimum fare of £13 applies for all journeys Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays).

 

[menmak08]

I might have missed something : but can you tell us where you were travelling from and to?

Southampton Central to Reading

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

Attached is the ticket booked on that day which also have the any time day return on a week with same railcard.

 

[jfollows]

Southampton Central to Reading

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

Attached is the ticket booked on that day which also have the any time day return on a week with same railcard.

Yes, that’s the ticket showing the railcard discounted price, which isn’t valid before 10am (with a network railcard) as previously discussed.

 

[furlong]

Please fill in the gaps;
What time journey (out and return) was mentioned in your booking confirmation? Were there seat reservations - if so, which trains?
What time did you actually travel?
Where were you stopped (e.g. on the train shortly after leaving Southampton)?
Is your Network Railcard digital or paper and what's the expiry date?

Then you need to focus on two things separately
- Whether the ticket and/or booking confirmations after purchase mentions the restrictions and in what way.
- Whether the booking process prior to purchase mentioned the restrictions and in what way.

Then all the above need to be considered through the perspective of both the Conditions of Travel and consumer law, to consider what the terms of the actual contract formed are likely to be.

 

[slicedbread]

The network raicard has a condition that you don't see for other cards that directly addresses traveling at a time that discounted fares do not apply

4.7. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if you travel:

4.7.1. beyond the station for which your ticket is issued; or
4.7.2. to a destination beyond the area shown on the Network Railcard map (network-railcard.co.uk/map), without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey; or
4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

Does that make a difference to if the OP should have been excessed or issued a penalty fare rather than threatened with a prosecution if they don't settle out of court?

 

[Fermiboson]

It does, actually. The same T&Cs are what the time restrictions rely on.

I wonder if a politely worded letter to the TOC pointing the clause out and offering to pay the remedy would be wise. Alternatively could one pay the settlement under protest then sue under the Consumer Rights Act for the difference in the sum?

 

[menmak08]

Please fill in the gaps;
What time journey (out and return) was mentioned in your booking confirmation? Were there seat reservations - if so, which trains?
What time did you actually travel?
Where were you stopped (e.g. on the train shortly after leaving Southampton)?
Is your Network Railcard digital or paper and what's the expiry date?

Then you need to focus on two things separately
- Whether the ticket and/or booking confirmations after purchase mentions the restrictions and in what way.
- Whether the booking process prior to purchase mentioned the restrictions and in what way.

Then all the above need to be considered through the perspective of both the Conditions of Travel and consumer law, to consider what the terms of the actual contract formed are likely to be.

In response to your questions:
What time journey (out and return) was mentioned in your booking confirmation? 10:15 Were there seat reservations - if so, which trains? CrossCountry
What time did you actually travel? 08:15
Where were you stopped (e.g. on the train shortly after leaving Southampton)?WINCHESTER
Is your Network Railcard digital or paper and what's the expiry date? DIGITAL

Then you need to focus on two things separately
- Whether the ticket and/or booking confirmations after purchase mentions the restrictions and in what way. NO
- Whether the booking process prior to purchase mentioned the restrictions and in what way.NO

 

[BongoStar]

In response to your questions:
What time journey (out and return) was mentioned in your booking confirmation? 10:15 Were there seat reservations - if so, which trains? CrossCountry
What time did you actually travel? 08:15
Where were you stopped (e.g. on the train shortly after leaving Southampton)?WINCHESTER
Is your Network Railcard digital or paper and what's the expiry date? DIGITAL

Then you need to focus on two things separately
- Whether the ticket and/or booking confirmations after purchase mentions the restrictions and in what way. NO
- Whether the booking process prior to purchase mentioned the restrictions and in what way.NO

We had a very lively disagreement debate here on misuse of Railcard just last week.

If you intend to contest this in court based on the wording of the ticket (despite the fact that you signed up for T&Cs of Railcard), you will have to demonstrate that you have upheld your part of the contract as well. Which you haven't.

If you had even tried to input the departure time as 08:15, the ticket would not have been issued.

The argument the rail company will use is that you misrepresented what you wanted to buy (this is even before the point that you ignored the terms of railcard) to obtain the ticket.

I would even question the rationale of buying Anytime ticket when the apparent intention was to travel offpeak, other than to get through the barrier at peak time.

 

[Fermiboson]

The argument the rail company will use is that you misrepresented what you wanted to buy (this is even before the point that you ignored the terms of railcard) to obtain the ticket.

I would even question the rationale of buying Anytime ticket when the apparent intention was to travel offpeak, other than to get through the barrier at peak time.

Ignorance. I would certainly not like to try my chances with it in court, but I think especially considering the prevailling wind there is a chance of defeating an RoRA 5(3) prosecution which requires intent here.

That said £126.90 is pretty cheap for a settlement so if I were OP it's probably not worth the hassle to contest.

 

[BongoStar]

Ignorance. I would certainly not like to try my chances with it in court, but I think especially considering the prevailling wind there is a chance of defeating an RoRA 5(3) prosecution which requires intent here.

What other intention would the OP have to buy an Anytime ticket, if not to travel before 10am?

The default ticket and price it presents when 10:15 is selected is the offpeak day return for £17. OP has to make a conscious choice to select Anytime and pay 90p more.

It is clear OPs intention was not to travel after 10am but rather before.

 

[Fermiboson]

What other intention would the OP have to buy an Anytime ticket, if not to travel before 10am?

The default ticket and price it presents when 10:15 is selected is the offpeak day return for £17. OP has to make a conscious choice to select Anytime and pay 90p more.

It is clear OPs intention was not to travel after 10am but rather before.

Ignorance, as in, OP was unaware that the anytime fare was invalid before 10am.

Consider the following thought process:
"I need to travel before 10, but all these tickets are so expensive. The one for 10:15 is cheaper."
"There's one here that says off peak, but this one says anytime, and it's still cheaper than the other tickets before 10. I must be able to use this before 10!"

 

[slicedbread]

If you intend to contest this in court based on the wording of the ticket (despite the fact that you signed up for T&Cs of Railcard), you will have to demonstrate that you have upheld your part of the contract as well. Which you haven't.

But don't the T&Cs also say that Crosscountry should have charged the difference or issued a penalty fare?

 

[Fermiboson]

I am minded to agree with the above, given the implementation of NRCoT 9.2 as well. Forgetting to bring a railcard means you don't have a valid ticket, which is RoRA 5.3 and also technically a breach of the contract to have your railcard alongside your railcard discounted ticket. But one is generally successful in convincing a ToC not to prosecute in scenarios like this.

 

[some bloke]

on 10th October 2024 I received a letter

@menmak08 , what date is on the letter?

The 14 days is from "the date of this letter", rather than the date you received it.

 

[furlong]

And what date (month/year) does the railcard expire?

 

[mad_rich]

Ignorance, as in, OP was unaware that the anytime fare was invalid before 10am.

Consider the following thought process:
"I need to travel before 10, but all these tickets are so expensive. The one for 10:15 is cheaper."
"There's one here that says off peak, but this one says anytime, and it's still cheaper than the other tickets before 10. I must be able to use this before 10!"

Exactly.

Added to which, there are plenty of situations when the rational, legal thing to do to get the cheapest fare is to pick a train you have no intention of travelling on!

I can think of two on my local TOC, LNER: buying flexi fare for the ‘wrong’ departure time, because it’s cheaper than an Advance for the desired time; buying an off-peak ticket for the ‘wrong’ time because the TOC falsely claims the train you want is sold out.

So “this ticket is cheaper and tells me I can travel at Anytime” doesn’t sound unusual or unreasonable, within the context of complicated train fares.