London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[StrollerEd]

Personally, I prefer breakfast to be included in the price of my ticket when travelling First Class on an InterCity service, rather than having to pay extra on top. If I have to pay extra, I wonder why I didn't just travel Standard Class and have breakfast elsewhere! They should introduce Smoked Salmon and Scrambled Eggs because - a. Virgin do it, b. Not everyone likes a Full English so having an alternative is nice, c. It's very easy to prepare.

My prime motive for travelling FC on the Edin/London route is to get comfort, peace & quiet - giving me opportunity to work and thus justify the extra investment in FC by my employer.

The fuss caused by staff having to serve 'get your stuff for free if you can' to each and every passenger disturbs that - noting that with short-journey passengers (sometimes commuters) that a given seat means multiple passengers having to be served and so maximising disturbance.

The food is important - and I have been happy in the past with the free snacks - inc coffee etc - and the option to buy something more substantial.

I await the bumper sales of 'FC Travel Hampers' from M&S.

 

[Failed Unit]

Don't - just DON'T - base your opinions on the Super Voyagers! The offer has changed, but is still far inferior to the Pendolinos. Base your opinions on "complimentary" breakfasts on the Pendolinos!

But they don't run from Edinburgh - You have always had the same situation with Virgin - I used to travel frequently to Warrington from Glasgow you used to avoid the Voyagers if you were hungry. That was at the time that public sector workers could have first open tickets. For the person that just wanted to get from A-B they could never understand why you got a full breakfast on the trains heading to London but nothing on the ones heading futher to places like Plymouth (it was XC at the time).

I understand the offer has changed on the Voyagers.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think people are being a bit finicky about the breakfast. After all, FC ticket prices have remained almost identical, and the price of a still decent breakfast has down from £12 to 0p. Not everyone likes black pudding (such as me, because of what it's made of), and baked beans can be messy - which isn't too good for business travellers in suits!

So just ask for them to not include Black Pudding or Beans with your breakfast you avoid things you don't like I still get things I want. I don't like tomatoes but rather than just thinking "hmm this breakfast is awful because of tomatoes" I just ask them not to serve it with tomatoes.

Considering the breakfast isn't costing you anything, I think the criticisms are a bit harsh.

So because it's free I have no right to complain? I don't see why it's free has any bearing on whether or not I can criticize or not? Previously catering on EC was the best in the country bar none (not even you favorite TOC Virgin could match it). Now it appears that the catering has gone massively downhill as a consequence I feel completely justified in my criticism. The points I've raised about breakfast might be a minor thing but they are a symptom of the wider issues with the new catering.

 

[All Line Rover]

So because it's free I have no right to complain? I don't see why it's free has any bearing on whether or not I can criticize or not? Previously catering on EC was the best in the country bar none (not even you favorite TOC Virgin could match it). Now it appears that the catering has gone massively downhill as a consequence I feel completely justified in my criticism. The points I've raised about breakfast might be a minor thing but they are a symptom of the wider issues with the new catering.

East Coast was the best, but you had to pay for it - you could have got a breakfast just as decent elsewhere for less. Virgin was - and in my opinion is still - the best for a free breakfast. East Coast are almost as good. All I'm saying is that when a breakfast is included in the price of your ticket - and East Coast have to make 1000s of them a day - it's a bit OTT to say "but there's no black pudding" or "but there's no baked beans." You don't have to have the breakfast if you don't like it anyway! East Coast are catering for the masses here, so you can't expect the breakfasts to be "personalised." You could "personalise" your breakfast under the old "At Seat" offering because: a. You paid for it! and b. Less people ordered breakfast so more time could be spent on preparing the few that were ordered.

I think that your criticisms about the breakfast are in the minority. I imagine that most regular travellers on East Coast are glad that a "free" breakfast is included in the price of their ticket - even though the price of that ticket (or season ticket) hasn't changed. They're not going to complain about a lack of black pudding or baked beans!

I still agree with people's criticisms about the "All Day" offer. I might even agree with people's criticisms about the "Evening Meal" offer (it certainly isn't as good as Virgin), but I won't make conclusive opinions about it until I have tried it next month on my ALR.

 

[StrollerEd]

ALR, your post illustrates the folly of the new EC policy on FC food:

FC passengers pay FC prices not to be regarded as one of the masses. They pay a premium in order to have some sense of personalised service.

The 'free-for-all' engenders the wrong attitude in provider and passenger alike, and undermines the peace & comfort element as well as removing the good food element.

East Coast was the best, but you had to pay for it - you could have got a breakfast just as decent elsewhere for less

Agreed, but I wanted to eat that breakfast while I was travelling. As indicated elsewhere, I can just as easily eat such a breakfast in the deadtime at the airport.

 

[furgus2]

I'm wondering how restrictive/generous East Coast is with the alcohol. I find that on Virgin from Euston to West Midlands, Manchester, Liverpool and Preston the normal practice is to offer one drink as the trolley passes out from kitchen and another on its way back to the kitchen. This seems just the right amount to me. Is this pattern copied on East Coast?

 

[All Line Rover]

FC passengers pay FC prices not to be regarded as one of the masses. They pay a premium in order to have some sense of personalised service.

The 'free-for-all' engenders the wrong attitude in provider and passenger alike, and undermines the peace & comfort element as well as removing the good food element.

Virgin have not "personalised" their breakfast for years, yet plenty of people still pay extra to travel FC because you have a good service - being served food, drinks, having a larger seat, etc.... You also have two breakfast options, so their is some sort of variety.

I don't know the exact number of First Class seats on East Coast's trains, but when near capacity I imagine it's in the 100s. At that scale, it is almost impossible to make a slightly different breakfast for each customer!

After all, East Coast want the First Class carriages to be fairly full - not almost empty!

 

[ainsworth74]

East Coast was the best, but you had to pay for it - you could have got a breakfast just as decent elsewhere for less. Virgin was - and in my opinion is still - the best for a free breakfast. East Coast are almost as good.

And I guess this is the nub of the argument. I would prefer to pay for quality you would prefer to have something for nothing. So might I suggest we just leave it at that seeing as I don't think either of us are going to change our minds

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm wondering how restrictive/generous East Coast is with the alcohol. I find that on Virgin from Euston to West Midlands, Manchester, Liverpool and Preston the normal practice is to offer one drink as the trolley passes out from kitchen and another on its way back to the kitchen. This seems just the right amount to me. Is this pattern copied on East Coast?

On London - Edinburgh services you get 3 chances,

On between London & York, once after York and once after Newcastle (if you are lucky)

If you want more you need to go to the buffet.

 

[All Line Rover]

And I guess this is the nub of the argument. I would prefer to pay for quality you would prefer to have something for nothing. So might I suggest we just leave it at that seeing as I don't think either of us are going to change our minds

Agreed, although I wouldn't say that Virgin's Pendolino Breakfast or Evening Meal isn't "quality." East Coast have switched to a complimentary breakfast, and however hard you try, I don't think they'll be switching back!

Having said that, why don't they do a survey on all breakfast trains for a week, asking people if they prefer having the "new" complimentary breakfast, or if they preferred the "old" way where you could pay £12 for a slightly more substantial breakfast?

 

[sidmouth]

Every one keeps talking about the breakfast, they should be so lucky. Well, I travelled PBO to KGS 1st class yesterday for £124 return on the 7am departure from PBO, and all I was offered was a stale croissant. I arrived KGX hungry and thus really peeved (at that time of morning I dont tend to eat breakfast at home, as it would mean getting out of bed earlier, so do need to eat something on the train). At least in the good old days (pre 22nd May) I had the option of an at-seat service. Now nothing! So how is that an improvement. Needless to say I have fired off an email to EC to express my displeasure. I just feel like a second class citizen just because I live in Peterborough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having said that, why don't they do a survey on all breakfast trains for a week, asking people if they prefer having the "new" complimentary breakfast, or if they preferred the "old" way where you could pay £12 for a slightly more substantial breakfast?

Or at least give us the opportunity to buy a sandwich, any thing, from a trolley. Any thing is better than nothing as is now occurring for sub 70 min journeys

 

[premier01]

Personally, I prefer breakfast to be included in the price of my ticket when travelling First Class on an InterCity service, rather than having to pay extra on top. If I have to pay extra, I wonder why I didn't just travel Standard Class and have breakfast elsewhere! They should introduce Smoked Salmon and Scrambled Eggs because - a. Virgin do it, b. Not everyone likes a Full English so having an alternative is nice, c. It's very easy to prepare.

I agree-whereas I don't think that scrapping the restaurant service on Evening services and the at seat service in 1st is good I agree breakfast should be included in the ticket price-it is on Virgin and EC need to do the same to keep up with the competition on some routes. I usually travel on VT but would be unhappy at having to pay £12 for breakfast-most 4 star hotels don't charge much more than that and my company expenses policy wouldn't generally cover that cost unless I used part of my allowance for an overnight stay.

EC could have offered the following services:

Breakfast

1st class-complimentary breakfast served at seat as per current offering but with alternatives such as salmon and offer cereals and fresh fruit to match VT

Complimentary drinks-no booze.

Standard-offer a range of breakfast items at the Cafe Bar-bacon rolls etc

All Day Offer

Ensure there is always 2 hot snacks available as well as sandwiches-1 meat or fish and 1 vegetarian such as burger, lasagne etc Free booze-this would out perform VT

Afternoon Tea

Sandwiches, cream tea etc published in the timetable and available as published

Evening Meal

Starter-salads and soup in winter

Main Course-2 simple but good quality options-1 vegetarian and lighter option such as jacket potato meals could be lamb, steak-perhaps smaller cut, fish n chips, curry, spaghetti bolognase etc

Desert-1 option such as cheesecake or fresh fruit with liquer coffee or desert wine-that would really set apart from VT

Free booze

Weekend Service-as current offering as provided this is actually delivered as advertised then it is better than VT and will help increase 1st class upgrade ticket sales.

 

[142094]

I'm a very infrequent user of 1st class, but will be testing it on Thursday. 1st Advance was £1.50 more than the standard advance, so will be having a sandwich and drink.

I was very impressed with the service when I did INV - KGX 1st class last year, so will be interesting to see how it has changed.

 

[thefab444]

All Day Offer

Ensure there is always 2 hot snacks available as well as sandwiches-1 meat or fish and 1 vegetarian such as burger, lasagne etc Free booze-this would out perform VT

Afternoon Tea

Sandwiches, cream tea etc published in the timetable and available as published

In addition "sandwiches" should consist of at least two whole slices of bread i.e. the equivalent of four of what you get at the moment.

 

[Daimler]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I presume another sad casualty of the change in catering service is the availability of freshly made bacon toasties/full English breakfasts to passengers in standard class?

I well recall travelling standard to Durham late last year and going up to the buffet to order a full English, which was freshly made for me in the kitchen (along with a roaring trade in first class breakfasts from the at-seat menu, needless to say).

If so, the notion of standard class food on Edinburgh trains being limited to microwaved paninis is very sad.

 

[ainsworth74]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I presume another sad casualty of the change in catering service is the availability of freshly made bacon toasties/full English breakfasts to passengers in standard class?.

I think bacon toasties maybe still available (or at least some sort of breakfast panini/sandwich/roll thing) but the full English and any other sort of meal is off the menu for standard class passengers.

 

[YorkshireRider]

The fresh made bacon toastie is as you were, but the breakfast has gone im afraid

 

[OxtedL]

I think that this whole saga may be taken as a sign of changing times.

In 2005, Oxted had the one supermarket (and a convenience store), a couple of restaurants, and a load of random shops of various descriptions (including a bakery and a Woolworths, note). And a small cinema.

In 2011, Oxted has four supermakets (you better believe it), at least five restaurants, a Costa Coffee, a Caffe Nero, two other Brand eateries, and notably less variety in shops. I'm amazed we have no McDonalds. (The bakery lost most of it's business, and Woolworths... well ). The cinema changed hands at least twice, and now shows a tonne more adverts, charges more for entry, and generally bombards you with other ways to spend money from start to finish. (That's the internet's fault, methinks.)

This effect has been brought along in no small part by the recession, but shows the ever increasing power of the Brand in the UK. Teenagers fall straight for it, and grow accustomed to it. Mainly because brands have the power to offer it for much less. Giving teens money to spend on *cough* other things.

As a member of a more recent generation myself, I have to say that I have not learned to appreciate the power of a Full English. Upcoming generations have a changing pattern of consumption, and I would personally not bat and eyelid at being only offered a toasted panini. I only had one experience with the old restaurant car, but I will inform you that while it was very nice, it didn't have any of the things I was accustomed to eating, and just felt like hassle.

The new East Coast catering is probably, regardless of quality or general opinion, The Future on this matter. And that, I believe, is the unfortunate reality of this whole episode.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I was very impressed with the service when I did INV - KGX 1st class last year, so will be interesting to see how it has changed.

I did the Sunday Kings Cross-Inverness full run in Summer 2008, and I think the first class service I received that day was the best that I have ever experienced (it put Virgin's weekday service to shame!). I think I'd been offered coffee ten times by York!

 

[junglejames]

I did the Sunday Kings Cross-Inverness full run in Summer 2008, and I think the first class service I received that day was the best that I have ever experienced (it put Virgin's weekday service to shame!). I think I'd been offered coffee ten times by York!

That doesnt surprise me. It used to be a near constant supply of tea, coffee and biscuits, Friendly staff, and pleasant surroundings.
Now the majority of services sound like 2 sandwiches and a G&T!

I cant believe there are no evening southbound services offering the evening meal. Its supposed to go by the time of day.
How can you charge the same fares for these evening southbound services than you do for the evening northbound services? Its just not fair.

 

[Essexman]

EC have sent me the following standard reply that doesn't answer the points made in my email to them below.

Dear Mr

Thank you for your email regarding complimentary food and drink in First Class, please accept my apologies for the time taken to respond.

I am sorry to learn that the quality of our complimentary food and drink service did not meet your expectations. We aim to provide a wide range of high quality products for our customers and I was therefore concerned to read your comments.

From the details you gave, I am not sure whether you informed staff at the time regarding your dissatisfaction. If ever you feel our goods are not up to standard it is helpful if customers inform staff about their dissatisfaction. This then gives us the opportunity to fully check standards and put things right on the day.

I have taken note of the points you make and will ensure that they are made known to the people responsible for making improvements to our catering services.

With the introduction of any new service we understand there may be lessons for us to learn. I would like to assure you we are working hard to resolve these as quickly as possible. We know that people are let down and disappointed when, for whatever reason, we fail to deliver. The development of our First Class complimentary food and drink service is a key part of our business plan and we know we will fail in our aspirations if we cannot deliver this reliably for our customers.

I would like to assure you that a great deal of work has gone on at all levels within our organisation to ensure we deliver a high quality service our customer. We are determined to get this right and we are grateful to you for taking the time to write and let us know about your experience.

As I am sure you can imagine it is an extremely exciting time for us all at East Coast. We look forward to welcoming you on board your next journey with us.

Yours sincerely,
East Coast Customer Relations Team



To: Customer Relations Mailbox
Subject: Catering

Dear Sirs

I am writing to express my disappointment about your new catering.

I travel regularly on East Coast, sometimes First Class & sometimes Standard. One of the main reasons I chose First Class was in order to have a choice from a menu of freshly cooked meals, for which like most business travellers I am prepared to pay.

Having seen your complimentary menu I consider this far inferior to both the at-seat & restaurant services. Hence I will now be far less likely to travel First Class. Not only will East Coast lose the extra income from my First Class fare and food purchase, but you have now lost the advantage over Hull Trains and Grand Central, so I will now also be using their services.

For example, this week I travelled to Bridlington, out & return in the middle of the day, and as a result of the catering change, chose to travel Standard Class.

It was also disappointing to find that the buffet menu has also changed and that there are no hot meals available. Not only have you lost the ‘At-Seat’ menu that was available in the buffet, but also cottage pie, fish pie & lasagne. The only hot food it now paninis.

How disappointing and what a shadow of the service that GNER provided.

Yours sincerely

 

[Skimble19]

The email seems reasonable enough to me.. doesn't really look like a standard template reply either if I'm honest, far too much of it is personalised for it to be so.

 

[Greenback]

I agree; it does not appear to be a bog standard one size fits all reply.

I think that EC will be monitoring feedback very closely. They may not be able to reply ind epth to every individual point made in every piece of correpsondence they receive, but I do believe them when they say they will note them. They will be looking to address concerns made by a majority of people by tweaking the offering and looking for quick wins.

It is in EC's interest to listen to their customers. Like any business, they want to increase revenue and it's difficult to do that if people don't like what you are doing.

 

[Failed Unit]

When I asked the staff is that all you get for a 4h30 journey they just told me to complain directly, the passengers hate the new offer but the management won't listen to the people working on the ground.

 

[Blindtraveler]

did INV - EDB today. Deliberately didnt book breakfast so I could try the onboard offer - not bad but overheard a few people saying that they wernt happy with the all day offer they were served northbound on previouse trips. a caucious thums up but wil wate and try the all day offering.

 

[StrollerEd]

pleased someone has had a reply from EC - I await one to my email of 27th May. As someone remarks this does not look like a standdard response, although it does not address several of the points made in Esssxman's letter. That said, he says "One of the main reasons I chose First Class was in order to have a choice from a menu of freshly cooked meals, for which like most business travellers I am prepared to pay " ; the EC retort " The development of our First Class complimentary food and drink service is a key part of our business plan and we know we will fail in our aspirations if we cannot deliver this reliably for our customers".

The reference to complaint via the staff is very inappropriate as it was plain to me on May 27th that the staff were being run off their feet and doing their best - and the spoken interchange between staff and passengers had resorted to 'studied politeness'. It was not clear whether the complaint about the removal of the resturant car would have had the desired effect:

 

[Failed Unit]

From the passengers I have spoken too on the London - Edinburgh route, non of the have a good word to say about the at all day offer but must are happy with Breakfast and Dinner. I have yet to meet some know knew there was a hot offer on the all day offer, or actually get offered it.

I have a journey coming up where I am travelling Southbound. In the past I would have used the 1700 and had a full meal. I would be the first to admit that trains catering probably didn't cover it's costs, but what has changed they still have chefs on board don't they? In fact more staff are in first class now. Anyway because of how poor the all day offer is and the fact they don't believe passengers travelling south deserve a meal it is a trip over to Glasgow to use virgins 1640 for me. If east coast offered more than 2 sandwiches for a 4h journey they wouldn't have lost my business for this trip!

 

[voyagerdude220]

Anyway because of how poor the all day offer is and the fact they don't believe passengers travelling south deserve a meal it is a trip over to Glasgow to use virgins 1640 for me.

I hope you enjoy the VT evening meal!

I've not travelled on an evening meal service for several months, but the VT breakfast is still as good as ever, particularly on Pendo's, with plenty of toast offered alongside the very substantial, high quality full English.

Also very impressed by "Fresh naturally organic" Salmon tarts with potato which featured recently as part of the all day offer.

 

[All Line Rover]

I hope you enjoy the VT evening meal!

I've not travelled on an evening meal service for several months, but the VT breakfast is still as good as ever, particularly on Pendo's, with plenty of toast offered alongside the very substantial, high quality full English.

Also very impressed by "Fresh naturally organic" Salmon tarts with potato which featured recently as part of the all day offer.

I haven't tried the Pendolino Evening Meal is recent months, but when travelling on the 17:55 and 18:55 services between Manchester and Crewe, they bring the meals out for customers travelling to London and they look very nice.

The Salmon tart sounds nice too! Is it hot? And is it part of the "Light Bites" service? If so, that's much better than just sandwiches!

 

[voyagerdude220]

The Salmon tart sounds nice too! Is it hot? And is it part of the "Light Bights" service? If so, that's much better than just sandwiches!

Unfortunately not, but I was very impressed by how much flavour it had. It made for a very tasty snack, without being too filling.