Mk1 (or derivatives ) brake luggage area - interior picture?

[4COR]

I'm trying (and failing!) to find an in service picture of a BR Mk1 Brake (or derivations thereof) showing the interior of the luggage area.

I remember travelling on the 4VEP/4CIGs in the 90s (Oxted line, Brighton Main Line etc) with the luggage/bike area having some kind of metal mesh separating it from the corridor area but for the life of me can't find a picture of a Mk1 interior online. Can anyone help/point me in the right direction? Thanks!

 

[Gloster]

The only photos that I can find are on page 29 of Keith Parkin’s book on Mark 1 coaches, probably in ex-works condition. One photo is of the interior of a BG, a second outside a guard’s compartment and the third looking towards the gangway in a BSK.

 

[yorksrob]

I vaguely remember it. Did it go when the units were refurbished ?

 

[4COR]

The only photos that I can find are on page 29 of Keith Parkin’s book on Mark 1 coaches, probably in ex-works condition. One photo is of the interior of a BG, a second outside a guard’s compartment and the third looking towards the gangway in a BSK.

Thanks - Parkin's book was on my list of potential sources (I can get it to read but not borrow - handy perk of being able to use a copyright library - but a faff!)

I vaguely remember it. Did it go when the units were refurbished ?

I remember standing in them (in the EMU equivalent at least) between East Croydon and Upper Warlingham in the summer, must be 2002 - the window opened a long way and it was the coolest place to stand. Riddlesdown tunnel a lovely cool breeze! Fairly sure the metal mesh was there then, but the memory plays tricks...

 

[Gloster]

Virtually all of the Mark 1 BSK (Brake Second Compartment), BCK (Brake Composite Compartment) and BFK (Brake First Compartment) vehicles had the corridor side separated from the ‘van area’ by a floor to ceiling metal mesh with roughly two inch mesh. There were a pair of sliding doors halfway down and as the mesh came to the end it zig-zagged to give access to the end gangway; colour was the usual pale grey. A few Mark 1 BG (Brake Gangway), the full brakes, also had a similar mesh fitted.

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks - Parkin's book was on my list of potential sources (I can get it to read but not borrow - handy perk of being able to use a copyright library - but a faff!)

I remember standing in them (in the EMU equivalent at least) between East Croydon and Upper Warlingham in the summer, must be 2002 - the window opened a long way and it was the coolest place to stand. Riddlesdown tunnel a lovely cool breeze! Fairly sure the metal mesh was there then, but the memory plays tricks...

I think the VEP's definitely got rid of them on refurb. Can't remember for the CEP's.

 

[4COR]

CEPs weren't on the East Grinstead services so unsure on them - CIGs were though. Mundane things you wish you had recorded in hindsight!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2024 ==

Virtually all of the Mark 1 BSK (Brake Second Compartment), BCK (Brake Composite Compartment) and BFK (Brake First Compartment) vehicles had the corridor side separated from the ‘van area’ by a floor to ceiling metal mesh with roughly two inch mesh. There were a pair of sliding doors halfway down and as the mesh came to the end it zig-zagged to give access to the end gangway; colour was the usual pale grey. A few Mark 1 BG (Brake Gangway), the full brakes, also had a similar mesh fitted.

Super ta - think I need to get hands on Parkin as well!

 

[yorksrob]

CEPs weren't on the East Grinstead services so unsure on them - CIGs were though. Mundane things you wish you had recorded in hindsight!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2024 ==


Super ta - think I need to get hands on Parkin as well!

Wish I'd been rich enough to buy one

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I remember travelling on the 4VEP/4CIGs in the 90s (Oxted line, Brighton Main Line etc) with the luggage/bike area having some kind of metal mesh separating it from the corridor area but for the life of me can't find a picture of a Mk1 interior online. Can anyone help/point me in the right direction? Thanks!

I so wish I had taken pics of the Van space in VEP's in their original format, I can picture same even now as I type this, having spent many commutes sitting on the floor of the cage of the van in VEP's various, prior to joining BR in mid 70's. Once 'on the job' I got to ride (pass) in a spare guards van compartment, complete with a heater that was the best and quickest warm up on any winters day! Those who have memories of the heaters in 400 stock, both in guards compartment or cabs will likely agree, if anything, there were times even in the winter months they needed to to switched off during the journey....brings back memories of 'another' time..!

 

[Sun Chariot]

@4COR Is this old thread of any use, G?

Mk1 parcels and BGs - interiors

Hi all, Does anyone have any interior photos from 80s/90s standard BG parcels stock? Trying to replicate something but can only find TPO photos. Thanks Luke

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

VEPs and CEPs as rebuilt in NSE days had reduced brake accommodation relative to when they were built, and accordingly the cage didn't reach the end of the carriage. Both had a short area of luggage accommodation with a bit of a cage / sliding door between the guards accommodation and the end compartment. A CIG retained the brake accommodation as built.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Virtually all of the Mark 1 BSK (Brake Second Compartment), BCK (Brake Composite Compartment) and BFK (Brake First Compartment) vehicles had the corridor side separated from the ‘van area’ by a floor to ceiling metal mesh with roughly two inch mesh. There were a pair of sliding doors halfway down and as the mesh came to the end it zig-zagged to give access to the end gangway; colour was the usual pale grey. A few Mark 1 BG (Brake Gangway), the full brakes, also had a similar mesh fitted.

On early 1980s BR organised excursions / Merrymakers, the caged area was my teen self's Pandora's Box, as it contained trade stand and snacks!

 

[WesternLancer]

Original caged areas were spacious. By the time I was using them in the 80s to transport my bike they weren’t used for much else. That would have been VEPs and CIGs.

The film sequence of the Beatles playing in such an area in A Hard Days Night early in the film gives a good idea of them. Even tho that may have been a recreation film set.

Surely some preservation examples?

 

[4COR]

Surely some preservation examples?

I thought there might have been some, but the pictures of brakes in preservation appear to be very much open plan (which is very much sensible IMHO - practicalities of making the best use of available space).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2024 ==

@4COR Is this old thread of any use, G?

Mk1 parcels and BGs - interiors

Hi all, Does anyone have any interior photos from 80s/90s standard BG parcels stock? Trying to replicate something but can only find TPO photos. Thanks Luke

www.railforums.co.uk

Good stuff yes, thanks! Some obscure resources but interesting stuff. You might have guessed this is a modelling type query as well

Ultimately I'm trying to improve Mk1 BSKs a bit - a general feel is more than good enough, but they will be internally lit - but there is a bit of nostalgia having travelled on the latter BR(S) EMU versions of them!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Seems that the reason for the cages has been forgotten!

Until the recent (ish!) past. passenger trains conveyed both parcels and mail traffic. This was loaded into the 'van' of brakes and the cages - the access doors to which were kept locked - were to prevent theft.

Perhaps the reason they were removed was the abandonment of C&D Parcels and the loss of mail traffic meant that there was nothing to be kept secure.

 

[D6130]

CEPs as rebuilt in NSE days

The BEPs and CEPs as originally built - with the guard's/luggage/mail area immediately adjacent to the driving cabs in the motor coaches - didn't have cages IIRC. therefore, on an eight or twelve car train, valuable items had to be carried in the front or rear brakes (or in the Motor Luggage Van on boat trains).

 

[Western Lord]

Original caged areas were spacious. By the time I was using them in the 80s to transport my bike they weren’t used for much else. That would have been VEPs and CIGs.

The film sequence of the Beatles playing in such an area in A Hard Days Night early in the film gives a good idea of them. Even tho that may have been a recreation film set.

Surely some preservation examples?

I'm pretty sure that the on train sequences of A Hard Days Night were actually filmed on a real (moving) train.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm pretty sure that the on train sequences of A Hard Days Night were actually filmed on a real (moving) train.

Thanks. That’s positive to hear.

 

[mailbyrail]

I'm pretty sure that the on train sequences of A Hard Days Night were actually filmed on a real (moving) train.

The film sequences were filmed on the GW mainline between Chippenham and Wootton Bassett using Chippenham as the base. We lived close by at the time and my father worked in the booking office. He met all the Beatles and also Wilfred Bramble I remember although I never had the chance.
Dad moved from Chippenham to Liverpool Lime Street where various music stars and others were regular passengers and often bought their own tickets in person.

 

[Gloster]

Quite a lot of the filming of the exterior scenes was done on the Minehead branch. I still think that much of the guards van scenes was done on a set: the sheer number of people required, the size of the equipment and the lighting requirements make me think that it just wouldn’t be possible in a real van, even if stationary. Film studios were adept at producing all sorts of sets and they seem to have made an effort here: could BR have supplied some components to be incorporated in the set?

 

[matchmaker]

One other thing about the guards area on Mk1s - one of the doors on each side opened in, rather than out. This proved very handy on a sweltering summer day in the summer of 1986 on a Severn Valley Railway service when you could leave the door open and cool yourself down in the draught!

 

[Ashley Hill]

I'm trying (and failing!) to find an in service picture of a BR Mk1 Brake (or derivations thereof) showing the interior of the luggage area.

Have you thought of taking a photo of a preserved one? Whilst many have had the cages ripped out and turned into seated areas etc,I’m sure there are many in their original condition.

 

[Merle Haggard]

One other thing about the guards area on Mk1s - one of the doors on each side opened in, rather than out. This proved very handy on a sweltering summer day in the summer of 1986 on a Severn Valley Railway service when you could leave the door open and cool yourself down in the draught!

Guards' doors generally opened inwards so that they could remain on the platform until the train had started to move to check, for example, for attempts to board at the last minute - this door remaining open on a moving train didn't present the danger that an outward-opening one would. The layout was such that if the brake was at or towards the rear of the train and facing correctly (i.e.. the van behind the passenger accommodation) the passenger corridor was on the opposite side of the coach to the platform in usual layouts, so that passengers would not be presented with an open door.

 

[D6130]

Guards' doors generally opened inwards so that they could remain on the platform until the train had started to move to check, for example, for attempts to board at the last minute - this door remaining open on a moving train didn't present the danger that an outward-opening one would. The layout was such that if the brake was at or towards the rear of the train and facing correctly (i.e.. the van behind the passenger accommodation) the passenger corridor was on the opposite side of the coach to the platform in usual layouts, so that passengers would not be presented with an open door.

I think we may be confusing the guard's door with the van loading and unloading doors. The guard was provided with a single inward-opening door within his office on one side of the coach and opening into the corridor opposite his office on the other. These were the doors from which he despatched the train. A little further along, there were double outward-opening doors giving access to the parcels/mail compartment.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I think we may be confusing the guard's door with the van loading and unloading doors. The guard was provided with a single inward-opening door within his office on one side of the coach and opening into the corridor opposite his office on the other. These were the doors from which he despatched the train. A little further along, there were double outward-opening doors giving access to the parcels/mail compartment.

Possibly, but the post I was replying to referred to an inward opening door. The arrangement you describe also applied to L.M.S. coaches as I remember but, more as an aside, I have a memory somewhere of a (confusing!) double door one side of which opened inwards and one outwards, though I may be confusing with something non-railway or even dreamt it

 

[D6130]

I have a memory somewhere of a (confusing!) double door one side of which opened inwards and one outwards, though I may be confusing with something non-railway or even dreamt it

No....I think you may well be right. Although during my time as a guard (1983-88) I mainly worked on Southern Region EMUs and DEMUs, I also worked on loco-hauled Mark 1 stock. The non-corridor EMUs (SUB, EPB, HAP, CAP, etc.) and the DEMUs didn't have separate guard's doors (or parcels/mail cages) and therefore had one of the double doors which opened inwards for guard's despatch duties. However, I'm pretty certain that the loco-hauled brake vehicles - and those on the corridor EMUs (CIG, BIG, VEP, REP, TC....plus the refurbished BEP and CEP stock) - had double loading/unloading doors which both opened outwards. It may be that the type AM10/class 310 stock used on the Northampton line had double doors, one of which opened inwards and the other outwards. Having never worked them and rarely travelled on them, I honestly can't remember.

 

[Merle Haggard]

No....I think you may well be right. Although during my time as a guard (1983-88) I mainly worked on Southern Region EMUs and DEMUs, I also worked on loco-hauled Mark 1 stock. The non-corridor EMUs (SUB, EPB, HAP, CAP, etc.) and the DEMUs didn't have separate guard's doors (or parcels/mail cages) and therefore had one of the double doors which opened inwards for guard's despatch duties. However, I'm pretty certain that the loco-hauled brake vehicles - and those on the corridor EMUs (CIG, BIG, VEP, REP, TC....plus the refurbished BEP and CEP stock) - had double loading/unloading doors which both opened outwards. It may be that the type AM10/class 310 stock used on the Northampton line had double doors, one of which opened inwards and the other outwards. Having never worked them and rarely travelled on them, I honestly can't remember.

You may be right about AM10s, and working at Northampton at the start of my railway career (???) would be where I encountered them. Just made it a bit complicated loading the van without incurring station overtime.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

(CIG, BIG, VEP, REP, TC....plus the refurbished BEP and CEP stock) - had double loading/unloading doors which both opened outwards.

I believe the CEPs (and presumably the BEPs) as originally built with a van behind each cab, each pair of van doors included one inward opening door (standard drivers pattern on 400 stock), which was nearest the cab, whilst the adjoining (van style) door opened outward, having the larger lever handle that operated the internal floor to ceiling drop bolt arrangement. This latter door had the vertical handrail attached to the outside which would be used by someone entering the cab via the in swinging door.

 

[Pigeon]

Mostly DMUs rather than proper hauled stock (and no EMUs at all), but nearly every guard's van I remember putting my bicycle in had a pair of doors which were "one in one out". Very convenient to be able to approach with the bicycle along the platform and push open the inward-opening door without having to stagger backwards with the bicycle out of the way of a door swinging open. The big lever handle on the opposite door provided plenty of leverage making it easy to then stretch across the bicycle and operate it at arm's length, with the outward swing of that door being away from me so again not needing to be dodged.

Cages were nearly always still there and very rarely locked. Usually there were at least a few mailbags in there; if there were a lot and also a lot of passengers they occasionally got used as seating by bicycle owners. Stacks of big flat peeping cardboard boxes containing day-old chicks also used to appear regularly, and could sometimes be useful for propping the bicycle upright, depending on how much other stuff was in there taking up space. Once there was a Volvo M41 gearbox and Laycock de Normanville D-type overdrive assembly in there, but that was me.

 

[80sGuard]

1951 SR units (EPB, BEP, CEP etc) had their motors under the end coaches,so guards compartments were behind the drivers desk with a sliding door separating them. Access was via double inward opening doors - one on a standard door catch and the other lever operated. On two car units there was only one guards compartment, so on the rare occasions when I was working a single two car unit, it was easier to tell th driver he could start away then give two on the bell. 1963 units (BIG CIG VEP etc) had only one motored coach, so only one guard's compoartment in the motored coach. The goods cage occupied about one third of the coach to with two sets of outward opening double dotors on each side. The guard had a single inward opening door on each side. A corridor allowed passengers to get past the goods cage, and sliding doors could be padlocked or locked with a BR1 key if necessary. I can't find any pictures of guards compartments online (we tend to get overlooked) but here is a link to a diagram of a VEP taken from an SR Carriage Working Notice Appendix of 1967 https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/electric/vep_diag_ms001.jpg that shows the VEP layout. The Bluebell Railway Preservation Society Copyright is acknowledged.