Public perception of railways

[wildcard]

Anecdotal poor public perception maybe hiding an ulterior motive. Claiming that rail travel is so awful ( absent personal experience ) is a defence against a climate change minded friend asking you 'Why do you use your car so much ?'

 

[Whisky Papa]

An odd example yesterday (Thursday) evening. The manager in a Todmorden pub, on hearing I had just returned from Halifax by train, enquired if they were 'back to normal' after earlier problems. I knew there had been a major issue on Tuesday after a power failure, but no, she meant Thursday morning, with the line and station apparently flooded and 'no trains until about two o'clock' which having checked RTT was utterly wrong. If people keep hearing incorrect stories like this on top of the actual problems, it soon creates a very bad image!

 

[Sealink]

I am going to Inverness in December, on the 1200 ex KGX.

I could travel to London from Dorset that morning, but I just don't trust SWR to get me there in time, so for the fourth time in as many trips I will travel up the day before and overnight in London.

At the time of booking, KGX - INV in 1st was £116. Dorchester - Inverness on a through (guaranteed connection) ticket was a magnificent £444.40.

 

[hvordan]

Probably already been mentioned but cost is probably one of the biggest factors against rail that I hear. I know lots of people who travel frequently between Scotland and London, often on short notice, and most of the time it is cheaper to fly than take the train! Anywhere else in Europe it would be crazy to think the plane is cheaper than the train, but in the UK it is reality.

 

[Bungle73]

Probably already been mentioned but cost is probably one of the biggest factors against rail that I hear. I know lots of people who travel frequently between Scotland and London, often on short notice, and most of the time it is cheaper to fly than take the train! Anywhere else in Europe it would be crazy to think the plane is cheaper than the train, but in the UK it is reality.

Anywhere else in Europe the railway gets far more state funding. And then there is the fact that air fares are being kept artificially low.

 

[Sealink]

Anywhere else in Europe the railway gets far more state funding. And then there is the fact that air fares are being kept artificially low.

Or just across the water, look at walk on rail fares between Belfast and Dublin, and Dublin-Cork.

 

[mrmartin]

Anywhere else in Europe the railway gets far more state funding. And then there is the fact that air fares are being kept artificially low.

I think you've got it the wrong way round. The air industry pays for basically 100% of its costs - airports, ATC, fuel, leasing stock etc. You could argue that they don't pay enough for pollution, but honestly it gets pretty shaky because there are a lot of rail services which use diesel trains and have very low load factors - noone seems to consider the impact of these.

If direct air capture becomes more mainstream around £200/tonne (I suspect this will happen in the next 10 years or so) it would cost ~£30 each way to offset a ryanair domestic flight.

At the end of the day air is just a lot cheaper to build, operate and run than our rail system.

 

[ainsworth74]

Or just across the water, look at walk on rail fares between Belfast and Dublin

Though even there we're at a disadvantage. If you're travelling from Belfast you'll pay more than if you're travelling from Dublin as there is a differential pricing due to Irish Rail receiving more state support than Translink meaning they charge a lower price for exactly the same journey!

 

[Bungle73]

I think you've got it the wrong way round. The air industry pays for basically 100% of its costs - airports, ATC, fuel, leasing stock etc. You could argue that they don't pay enough for pollution, but honestly it gets pretty shaky because there are a lot of rail services which use diesel trains and have very low load factors - noone seems to consider the impact of these.

If direct air capture becomes more mainstream around £200/tonne (I suspect this will happen in the next 10 years or so) it would cost ~£30 each way to offset a ryanair domestic flight.

At the end of the day air is just a lot cheaper to build, operate and run than our rail system.

Really. Let's start with the fact that airlines don't pay tax on the fuel they use.

 

[roadie]

However dreadful the image of the railways from the passenger's perspective there is one overriding advantage of rail travel: safety. Yesterday's awful crash on the M6 involving five fatalities, including two children, highlights just how dangerous the roads can be. Yes, train fares are high and there can be delays and overcrowding, but your chances of surviving the journey intact are way ahead of the same trip by road.

Rail maybe safer but for the vast majority of us we are used to the risks of road travel since we need to get to and from a station to access the railway as it only serves a very limited number of destinations, and when the railway shuts for engineering, strikes or overnight as its not a 24/7 service we have to drive or be driven.

 

[yorksrob]

Rail maybe safer but for the vast majority of us we are used to the risks of road travel since we need to get to and from a station to access the railway as it only serves a very limited number of destinations, and when the railway shuts for engineering, strikes or overnight as its not a 24/7 service we have to drive or be driven.

The journey to the station for pedestrians would certainly be safer with fewer cars.

 

[yoyothehobo]

The journey to the station for pedestrians would certainly be safer with fewer cars.

How much of a reduction in cars is required to get a statistically beneficial increase in safety?

Not being facetious, would be interesting to have some values as it is an often a quoted benefit.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

The stationary train I'd just left was still in the platform, and I was no closer than about 3 feet to it, for a single step. I had no doubt that he moved deliberately to give himself an excuse to shout at me. Why does the railway employ these aggressive thugs? I presume they're usually nightclub bouncers or similar.

This is perhaps unfair to nightclub bouncers! They have by law to be registered, trained and background checked. Are there any equivalent requirements (apart from training for their personal safety) for "security" staff on railway premises ?

 

[mrmartin]

Really. Let's start with the fact that airlines don't pay tax on the fuel they use.

They do pay air passenger duty at £6.50 though - was more until very recently and I suspect Labour will rise this again (and maybe VAT on the fuel? not entirely sure). Given a 600km segment on Ryanair burns probably (at 2L/100km/pax) 12 litres of fuel that works out at 54p/litre equivalent. Previously at the old rate it was over £1/litre equiv APD.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Mass media has strong links with the automotive industry, when something goes wrong with the railways, it's over pressed en masse, when something bad happens with cars, you rarely see it. The Hatfield crash killed 4 people as saw the creation of Network rail. 4 people dying in a car crash barely makes the news.

Americanisation is also creeping in a lot more so people find public transport far less attractive.

Also, there's the last mile problem, while at my master's, I worked with. PhD student who could take a regular train but because there was an infrequent bus from the station to the lab, he just never found it attractive, claiming the trains were too unreliable. So he just drove. I found it funny that another person in the lab would take the same route and would arrive quicker but alas... Humans are strange creatures.

My father refuses to take the train to work because each ticket costs around £20. (which is good imo???)

It's a general mix of things.

 

[yorksrob]

My father refuses to take the train to work because each ticket costs around £20. (which is good imo???)

What sort of distance ?

 

[Fazaar1889]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2024 ==

What sort of distance ?

36 km

 

[HSTEd]

Really. Let's start with the fact that airlines don't pay tax on the fuel they use.

And the railway functionally doesn't either.

It gets effectively tax free diesel (11.14p/litre vs 52.95p/litre and a favourable VAT treatment).

 

[DelW]

Really. Let's start with the fact that airlines don't pay tax on the fuel they use.

Does the railway? I always assumed trains used red diesel (or other tax-free equivalent). Though now that all costs are being met by government / taxpayers, any tax would only be money going in a circle anyway.
(Edit: missed an answer to this above)

Mass media has strong links with the automotive industry, when something goes wrong with the railways, it's over pressed en masse, when something bad happens with cars, you rarely see it. The Hatfield crash killed 4 people as saw the creation of Network rail. 4 people dying in a car crash barely makes the news.

Not always the case, a collision on the M6 this week which killed 5 people was widely reported. But I agree that the the threshold of reporting is very different between roads and railways.

 

[Broucek]

I agree that the the threshold of reporting is very different between roads and railways.

While there is a double standard, it's a partly understandable one. The majority of vehicles on the road are driven by amateurs and those amateurs are also responsible for maintenance.

The public rightly expects higher standards from a professionally run public transport service and the higher level of press scrutiny reflects that. And any airline-related incident or near-incident would be reported at least as enthusiastically as one on the railway...

 

[yorksrob]

While there is a double standard, it's a partly understandable one. The majority of vehicles on the road are driven by amateurs and those amateurs are also responsible for maintenance.

The public rightly expects higher standards from a professionally run public transport service and the higher level of press scrutiny reflects that. And any airline-related incident or near-incident would be reported at least as enthusiastically as one on the railway...

Yet as a pedestrian, I'm forced everyday to put my life in the hands of these amateurs, yet rail projects that could help me are out-priced as a result of this double standard.

 

[Broucek]

Yet as a pedestrian, I'm forced everyday to put my life in the hands of these amateurs, yet rail projects that could help me are out-priced as a result of this double standard.

The double standard I referred to relates to press reporting. Not sure what that has to do with pedestrians but I'd say that "car kills pedestrian" is more likely to be reported than "car driver killed"

 

[Dr Hoo]

Mass media has strong links with the automotive industry, when something goes wrong with the railways, it's over pressed en masse, when something bad happens with cars, you rarely see it. The Hatfield crash killed 4 people as saw the creation of Network rail. 4 people dying in a car crash barely makes the news.

Americanisation is also creeping in a lot more so people find public transport far less attractive.

What does ‘mass media’ even mean these days? I can’t remember when I last bought a newspaper.

Perhaps I’m atypical but I get my news from the BBC rather than ad-infested websites or TV channels endlessly interrupted by commercials.

Not sure what Americanisation creeping in means either. I thought it arrived about 100 years ago with movies. How does it make public transport less attractive?

 

[DJP78]

Interesting course this debate has taken.

So, Guardian news reporting the lobbying group ‘campaign for better transport’ and treasury officials are pestering Reeves to increase fuel duty.

7p per ltr increase on petrol pumps expected.

Campaign for Better Transport also lobbying for additional duty on aviation fuel to bring operating costs in-line with railways to deter flying and promote rail use which is currently the most environmentally friendly form of public transport.

Let’s hope Labour can withstand the feet stomping and inevitable lobbying from oil firms, aviation sector and motoring groups.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Not always the case, a collision on the M6 this week which killed 5 people was widely reported. But I agree that the the threshold of reporting is very different between roads and railways.

I think I saw 1 tiktok about it? Many people injured but I don't see a mass reform on the national highways anytime soon.

What does ‘mass media’ even mean these days? I can’t remember when I last bought a newspaper.

Perhaps I’m atypical but I get my news from the BBC rather than ad-infested websites or TV channels endlessly interrupted by commercials.

I've personally started avoiding newspapers as a whole recently. I dislike the obvious biases. I, like the majority of people my age, get my news from social media. The rampant biases and misinformation seen everywhere undeniably affects people's mindsets. Any tiktok about news will have an incredibly stupid comment section. That is what people read and that is where they get their information.

Not sure what Americanisation creeping in means either. I thought it arrived about 100 years ago with movies. How does it make public transport less attractive?

Any post about public transport is filled with anti-public tranport opinions and mindsets. There's always the mindset of "you've made it if you have x or Y car" or "haha yes, I'm so poor, I use the bus!!". It's everywhere and it affects the masses opinions. It is due to the fact that our social media is largely americanised and tailored for the north American market, resulting in American values becoming the standard. Look on r/USdeafaultism on reddit, it is the norm unfortunately.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thank you @Fazaar1889 . I clearly made a sound decision in avoiding TikTok and Reddit.

 

[nanstallon]

This is perhaps unfair to nightclub bouncers! They have by law to be registered, trained and background checked. Are there any equivalent requirements (apart from training for their personal safety) for "security" staff on railway premises ?

Well, if these Rentathugs ever went to charm school, they should ask for their money back! All part of how the railway all too often treats its paying customers as the enemy.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Thank you @Fazaar1889 . I clearly made a sound decision in avoiding TikTok and Reddit.

Fair enough. But the reality is that these sites are where people get their information and opinions from.

 

[Halwynd]

I recall an incident back at a station in the 80s...

Passenger asks a Railman a question about a delayed train, receives some form of response but then follows it up with a supplementary question. Railman responds by asking the customer which window he wants to go through. Passenger writes in to complain and a Form One is issued. Railman is subsequently sent to work in the Red Star office out of the way. At the same station, the Travellers Fare buffet was run by two middle-aged women who served every passenger with an evil scowl... in my younger days they put the wind up me - it felt a bit like being served by a human version of Arkwright's till.

My feeling is that a fair chunk of the British public have a soft spot for the railway - look at how many 'normals' turn out for a steam charter, or the reaction years ago when lines were proposed for closure - but these days they're often frustrated with how it operates, poorer comfort perhaps, more expensive fares, ticket complexity, poor reliability etc. I can remember in British Rail days not once having to use a Rail Replacement Bus - and the railway would always get you home, and usually by train, if something went wrong at the end of the day. Can't say that today.

 

[yorksrob]

I recall an incident back at a station in the 80s...

Passenger asks a Railman a question about a delayed train, receives some form of response but then follows it up with a supplementary question. Railman responds by asking the customer which window he wants to go through. Passenger writes in to complain and a Form One is issued. Railman is subsequently sent to work in the Red Star office out of the way. At the same station, the Travellers Fare buffet was run by two middle-aged women who served every passenger with an evil scowl... in my younger days they put the wind up me - it felt a bit like being served by a human version of Arkwright's till.

My feeling is that a fair chunk of the British public have a soft spot for the railway - look at how many 'normals' turn out for a steam charter, or the reaction years ago when lines were proposed for closure - but these days they're often frustrated with how it operates, poorer comfort perhaps, more expensive fares, ticket complexity, poor reliability etc. I can remember in British Rail days not once having to use a Rail Replacement Bus - and the railway would always get you home, and usually by train, if something went wrong at the end of the day. Can't say that today.

You've got me reminiscing about the Ashford station buffets in the late 1980's, early 90's (one on each island platform) and the ladies who ran them - perfectly lovely, as was the hot chocolate from the Cadbury's machine.
Happy days !