Thoughts/advice on buying electric vehicles.

[paul1609]

In all seriousness though, the EV charged from a diesel generator is still of benefit, because it won't emit fumes where they cause most harm - in city centres and the likes. Just not quite as much benefit as if it wasn't.

Also a large diesel generator can have better emissions capture kit due to not being shoehorned in a vehicle.

I think that's called clutching at straws. I had the V7 out for my 400cc trial motorbike on Monday. I needed the VIN to load up riders weight to the ECU so it can correctly map itself for max performance and emissions compliance!
By my calculations the CO2 emissions of my KTM 400 are 50% lower than a Tesla 3 charged at last year's UK Grid average mix.
Obviously the answer would be to ban electric cars and give Government discounts for new ICE trial bikes. This would also have the massive benefit of taking all car drivers without a bike license off the road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that's called clutching at straws.

It's really not.

There are two types of pollution emitted by ICEs - carbon (which is a long term climate issue) and particulate/NOx etc (which is an immediate-term health issue).

If you only remove one of these it's still worthwhile. Better to remove both, but that needs long-term development of the sourcing of power.

On your wider point it would be a good thing if some single occupancy cars could be switched to "powered two wheelers" i.e. motorbikes/scooters, but I think that's unlikely because (a) it's a higher risk mode of transport to the rider, and (b) it rains in the UK a lot. And also (c) e-bikes are taking the bottom end of the market previously mostly taken by 50cc scooters due to the lack of need for insurance etc and being a lot cheaper.

 

[Alex McKenna]

I think that's called clutching at straws. I had the V7 out for my 400cc trial motorbike on Monday. I needed the VIN to load up riders weight to the ECU so it can correctly map itself for max performance and emissions compliance!
By my calculations the CO2 emissions of my KTM 400 are 50% lower than a Tesla 3 charged at last year's UK Grid average mix.
Obviously the answer would be to ban electric cars and give Government discounts for new ICE trial bikes. This would also have the massive benefit of taking all car drivers without a bike license off the road.

The way things are going - electricity generation will be less and less reliant on burning fossils...

 

[paul1609]

It's really not.

There are two types of pollution emitted by ICEs - carbon (which is a long term climate issue) and particulate/NOx etc (which is an immediate-term health issue).

If you only remove one of these it's still worthwhile. Better to remove both, but that needs long-term development of the sourcing of power.

On your wider point it would be a good thing if some single occupancy cars could be switched to "powered two wheelers" i.e. motorbikes/scooters, but I think that's unlikely because (a) it's a higher risk mode of transport to the rider, and (b) it rains in the UK a lot. And also (c) e-bikes are taking the bottom end of the market previously mostly taken by 50cc scooters due to the lack of need for insurance etc and being a lot cheaper.

According to the ktms V7 the NOX emissions are 0.03g per km, the combustion particulates of a Euro 5 motorcycle engine are too low to be measured. I can't really see that's an immediate health risk to be honest especially in the context of the tyre and brake particulates of a 2 1/2 tonne EV SUV.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to the ktms V7 the NOX emissions are 0.03g per km, the combustion particulates of a Euro 5 motorcycle engine are too low to be measured. I can't really see that's an immediate health risk to be honest especially in the context of the tyre and brake particulates of a 2 1/2 tonne EV SUV.

Yes, but you're not going to get mass switching to motorcycles, because it's quite a dangerous mode of transport (both perceived and actual) and it's rather weather susceptible.

They suit some people (clearly you) and will no doubt continue to, but the UK is never going to see mass adoption.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Obviously the answer would be to ban electric cars and give Government discounts for new ICE trial bikes.

My Direct Access was 25 years ago and, even then, I knew I'd likely be a casualty! So a flirt with a Fazer 600 and then I was back on four wheels.

 

[trebor79]

Depends on the temperature outside but trust me, it knocks about 30 miles off the range when you hit the air con button.

Is that actual or just what the guessometer says?
What impact does it have on the miles/kWh consumption readout?

Several reasonably reliable sources on the net suggest that on a warm summers day aircon uses 2.5 - 4 kw,
the 1 kw figure is if it’s on but not cooling, full climate control is worse

Car air conditioning absolutely does not use anything like 2.5kW. it might uses 4kW for a few minutes when you first turn it on if the car's been stood in the sun, but it ramps down to next to nothing once the cabin has cooled down.
Our Niro (same architecture as the Kona) can show in real time what's being used by the climate control.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Another very valuable journalistic comparison of petrol versus electric. Yes - "Fifth Gear" had Jason Plato hooning around a racetrack in a Kia EV6 and an Alfa Stelvio. My wife and I had naiively hoped to see some meaningful, real-world scenarios. We turned off after 2 minutes....

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm conscious the forum has several active threads covering pros/cons of EV ownership. Rather than duplicate those, I'll bring this one to a close, after my final question:

Does any of you have (or know of) an info source which gives reasonably realistic costs-comparison - ICE vs each principle hybrid type, vs full EV - of a typical D Segment sized car?
Total Cost of Ownership, from its initial purchase + 20k miles annually,.for 7 years? And based on my not having access to a home charger (physical limitation at property).

For me, sticking points in a 7 year TCO:
EV initial cost of purchase. My D segment diesel, an eleven month old dealership demonstrator, was discounted from £26k to £14.5k cash.
Cost of public charging.. For 20,000 miles of annual driving, I average 55mpg. The motorway miles get me close to 60mpg.

 

[bspahh]

I'm conscious the forum has several active threads covering pros/cons of EV ownership. Rather than duplicate those, I'll bring this one to a close, after my final question:

Does any of you have (or know of) an info source which gives reasonably realistic costs-comparison - ICE vs each principle hybrid type, vs full EV - of a typical D Segment sized car?
Total Cost of Ownership, from its initial purchase + 20k miles annually,.for 7 years? And based on my not having access to a home charger (physical limitation at property).

For me, sticking points in a 7 year TCO:
EV initial cost of purchase. My D segment diesel, an eleven month old dealership demonstrator, was discounted from £26k to £14.5k cash.
Cost of public charging.. For 20,000 miles of annual driving, I average 55mpg. The motorway miles get me close to 60mpg.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/car-running-costs-calculator has predicted running costs for cars up to 5 years and 100,000 miles.

They will usually be pretty good at predicting the cost of servicing, fuel consumption and the future value compared to other similar cars. They would not have predicted the increase in second hand car prices during covid.

BTW, for £22k you can get a Fisker Ocean with a 440 mile nominal range. It is a bit of a gamble that you won't need warranty cover, and that spares will be available if you need them.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks for that link @bspahh. My current car, discontinued three years ago, doesn't appear; however the stats are available for one possible replacement (Citroën C5-X), as well as a plethora of other fuel types.

The Fiskar Ocean's "level of financial risk" isn't something I want to ride my luck with.

 

[Snow1964]

I went to a Hyundai roadshow last week (where new Inster was on show) and figures for running costs were given vs similar sized existing car i20

For the i20 doing 200 miles would cost around £35-40 in petrol, which is 17-20p per mile. The Inster plugged in at home overnight costs 3.6p per mile on a typical EV friendly domestic tariff. (Costs more on most public chargers)

So for most people about fifth of cost for electricity vs fuel

So if looking at say 60,000 miles (not unreasonable for a car bought to keep over 6-8 years) then petrol would be £10,500-£12,000, electricity about £2160

Servicing is bit cheaper for EV too, so in this example better off buying the EV providing initial cost premium over petrol is under £9k

Or to put it another way if you do 8-10k miles per year, keep cars 6-8 years, then instead of paying £24-27k for the Inster, would need a small petrol hatchback for £15-18k But in UK not many new cars under £18k

 

[Harpers Tate]

Even 38.3kWh isn't generous for a pure EV, and the range with a 28kWh battery must have been dire.

The batteries are small, but they are efficient, with relatively low weight and good aerodynamics.

EV database says the real world range is 115 miles with the 28kWh battery and 155 miles with the 38kWh one. You can get them for less than £10k, so they could be good as a second car.

As bspahh says battery size isn't the whole story. A big factor is the rate of consumption (efficiency), and that does vary hugely. The orginial Ioniq was (and still is) one of the most efficient vehicles on the road. I have had both of these cars; the 28kWh one for 2 years and the 38.3 kWh one for 5. MY real-world range is/was:

28: 100-150
38: 175-230

but I want to place those figures into a different context:

28: 2-3
38: 3.5-4.5

Those figures are the elapsed time in hours on average driving those sorts of distances with a fair chunk on dual carriageway/motorway. More for regular roads. In my view, 2+ hours' driving is far enough to go without a break. Certainly after 3+, most folk will need a physical needs break of some sort. Changed thinking means you schedule/arrange these stops to coincide so that you are charging while you eat, drink, visit restrooms, buy gifts for whoever you are visiting, whatever (which you were going to do anyway).

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @Snow1964 although the size of car you quote (i20) and annual distances, are both smaller than my need.
Here's what I posed in post #99, also in my opening post for this thread:

Does any of you have (or know of) an info source which gives reasonably realistic costs-comparison - ICE vs each principle hybrid type, vs full EV - of a typical D Segment sized car?
Total Cost of Ownership, from its initial purchase + 20k miles annually,.for 7 years? And based on my not having access to a home charger (physical limitation at property).

 

[Noddy]

Thanks @Snow1964 although the size of car you quote (i20) and annual distances, are both smaller than my need.
Here's what I posed in post #99, also in my opening post for this thread:

Does any of you have (or know of) an info source which gives reasonably realistic costs-comparison - ICE vs each principle hybrid type, vs full EV - of a typical D Segment sized car?
Total Cost of Ownership, from its initial purchase + 20k miles annually,.for 7 years? And based on my not having access to a home charger (physical limitation at property).

It is very hard to predict the total cost of ownership based on public charging because unlike fuel there is such a big variation in pricing. So you need to work out where you are likely to charge. AC charging can often be had in the region of 30-60p kWh, and DC charging at Ionity, Westmorland, E.On Drive and open to all Tesla (assuming you aren’t boycotting Elon) can be had for around 65p. Then there’s Gridserve, Instavolt and Osprey at around 70-85p and finally the likes of Shell and BP which are over 90p (note the core business of the last two vs their EV pricing which in turn pushes up the average pricing-not that I’m cynical or anything).

Most importantly the above are all turn up and pay prices. As a driver with no home charging you’ll likely want to sign up for a subscription (possibly multiple-one for local AC, and one or more for rapid DC). For example the standard Ionity rate is 68p, but by paying £10.50 per month the price falls to 43p. You only need to add 40 odd kWh per month (basically one decent charge) to make this worth while-assuming there are Ionity chargers that are on your regular routes.

Personally I wouldn’t recommend getting an EV without home charging currently unless you live in an area where there is good AC provision very close to where you live (and you can leave it to charge overnight) and/or your work place has AC charging.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Many thanks @Noddy

When I do the south coast to and from Nottingham (near-ish Toton), my usual comfort-break stop is Bicester Tesco, so I'll have a look for charging locations and providers - thanks for explaining the differences.
Sadly, neither Nottingham nor Hampshire work sites have EV charging infrastructure.

 

[notverydeep]

I'm very much hoping that a suitably affordable EV of a suitable body shape becomes available in the next few years, but I fear it won't. I have a 2009 Ford Focus Estate and very few EVs seem to be conventional estate cars. Even with home charging, both the EV and ICE options described in this thread seem really expensive.

My focus estate cost £3,830 in 2014 and has since added 63110 miles in my ownership. I have spent £7,447.56 on diesel (11.84 pence / mile), £4,253.34 on maintenance, servicing and repairs and £340 on Vehicle Excise Duty (car tax), a total of £15,870.90 for 63110 miles, which is a total cost of 25.15 pence per mile of which. This is extremely cheap motoring and it has been reliable too, with only one roadside breakdown due to a failure of some wiring behind the instrument cluster (a known issue for that vintage of Ford Focus apparently). Had the purchase price less any residual value after more than 10 years been £15k, this would have added a full 17.7 pence / mile to the total. I don't routinely need to drive into a ULEZ.

What can I conclude from my own experience and from reading this thread? Firstly that if your starting premise is that you must spend £20k or more on a car (or the equivalent leasing payments) EVs will be cheaper motoring than ICEs provided that you charge at home (or work) but don't do too many 200 plus mile trips. On the other hand, if you do lots of long trips and / or cannot charge at home the cost of charging away from home and the potential journey time penalty would make some sort of ICE or hybrid more appealing, at least for the moment. However my main conclusion is that either way, spending £15k or more on purchasing or leasing a car isn't the most economically rational strategy by a wide margin, rather finding a fully / mostly depreciated car that will still be generally reliable remains the best bet - clearly this is likely to be an ICE for the moment. Given five more years of EV sales and adding further charging infrastructure, will hopefully bring EVs beyond early model Leafs and Zoes into this category...

 

[jon0844]

Given what you paid for the Focus and taking into account inflation, are there no EVs you could get for similar money in 2024 terms? How long has the MG5 (Estate) been around?

If you replaced your Focus with that, I expect the ongoing costs would be small and clearly the car will have many more features (especially safety wise) over the Focus.

I share the view that we need more estate car options but people have all but given up on them in favour of SUVs for reasons I can't fathom.

 

[E27007]

I went to a Hyundai roadshow last week (where new Inster was on show) and figures for running costs were given vs similar sized existing car i20

For the i20 doing 200 miles would cost around £35-40 in petrol, which is 17-20p per mile. The Inster plugged in at home overnight costs 3.6p per mile on a typical EV friendly domestic tariff. (Costs more on most public chargers)

So for most people about fifth of cost for electricity vs fuel

So if looking at say 60,000 miles (not unreasonable for a car bought to keep over 6-8 years) then petrol would be £10,500-£12,000, electricity about £2160

Servicing is bit cheaper for EV too, so in this example better off buying the EV providing initial cost premium over petrol is under £9k

Or to put it another way if you do 8-10k miles per year, keep cars 6-8 years, then instead of paying £24-27k for the Inster, would need a small petrol hatchback for £15-18k But in UK not many new cars under £18k

A good head for figures in your financial case, as ever, there are numbers which you can know for analysis eg, the (purchase price) but others you do not, eg the value of the car after 60,000 miles.
Those numbers which you do not know are the guests which may ruin the party.
There are a few new cars below £18,000, Fiat Panda, Fiat 500, Dacia Sandero, and a low budget of £15,000 will buy
a nice low-mileage IC car from a main dealer, eg a Honda Jazz

 

[notverydeep]

Given what you paid for the Focus and taking into account inflation, are there no EVs you could get for similar money in 2024 terms? How long has the MG5 (Estate) been around?

If you replaced your Focus with that, I expect the ongoing costs would be small and clearly the car will have many more features (especially safety wise) over the Focus.

I share the view that we need more estate car options but people have all but given up on them in favour of SUVs for reasons I can't fathom.

The MG5 is certainly the closest match for the Focus, and as you say will comply with later safety standards, but the oldest are only 2021 and start at £11k on Auto Trader, where the Focus cost £5160 inflated to current prices. Might be a realistic choice in 3 more years or so. Hopefully the Focus will carry on until then.

Definitely don’t want a SUV. Most seem to be larger on the outside, smaller on the inside. I heard this described as “autobesity” (probably on YouTube) which I thought was amusing…

 

[Noddy]

I'm very much hoping that a suitably affordable EV of a suitable body shape becomes available in the next few years, but I fear it won't. I have a 2009 Ford Focus Estate and very few EVs seem to be conventional estate cars. Even with home charging, both the EV and ICE options described in this thread seem really expensive.

My focus estate cost £3,830 in 2009 and has since added 63110 miles in my ownership. I have spent £7,447.56 on diesel (11.84 pence / mile), £4,253.34 on maintenance, servicing and repairs and £340 on Vehicle Excise Duty (car tax), a total of £15,870.90 for 63110 miles, which is a total cost of 25.15 pence per mile of which. This is extremely cheap motoring and it has been reliable too, with only one roadside breakdown due to a failure of some wiring behind the instrument cluster (a known issue for that vintage of Ford Focus apparently). Had the purchase price less any residual value after more than 10 years been £15k, this would have added a full 17.7 pence / mile to the total. I don't routinely need to drive into a ULEZ.

What can I conclude from my own experience and from reading this thread? Firstly that if your starting premise is that you must spend £20k or more on a car (or the equivalent leasing payments) EVs will be cheaper motoring than ICEs provided that you charge at home (or work) but don't do too many 200 plus mile trips. On the other hand, if you do lots of long trips and / or cannot charge at home the cost of charging away from home and the potential journey time penalty would make some sort of ICE or hybrid more appealing, at least for the moment. However my main conclusion is that either way, spending £15k or more on purchasing or leasing a car isn't the most economically rational strategy by a wide margin, rather finding a fully / mostly depreciated car that will still be generally reliable remains the best bet - clearly this is likely to be an ICE for the moment. Given five more years of EV sales and adding further charging infrastructure, will hopefully bring EVs beyond early model Leafs and Zoes into this category...

I don’t understand how you can have a model year 2009 Focus that you paid £3830 in 2009? There is no way you can only have paid less than £4000 for a brand new or nearly new Focus, even back then!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t understand how you can have a model year 2009 Focus that you paid £3830 in 2009? There is no way you can only have paid 4000 for a brand new or nearly new Focus back then!

Suspect a 1 and 0 have been confused there, and the car is a 2009 model year but was purchased in 2019, which would sound about right in terms of the numbers. Four grand for a ten year old Focus sounds about right.

 

[notverydeep]

I don’t understand how you can have a model year 2009 Focus that you paid £3830 in 2009? There is no way you can only have paid less than £4000 for a brand new or nearly new Focus, even back then!

Sorry that’s an error. I bought it in 2014 with 105k miles already (and at an auction, so with no dealer prep). I will edit the first post, given that the point I was trying to make was that new / nearly new cars are not the best choice! A case of thinking one thing, typing another!

 

[bspahh]

Sorry that’s an error. I bought it in 2014 with 105k miles already (and at an auction, so with no dealer prep). I will edit the first post, given that the point I was trying to make was that new / nearly new cars are not the best choice! A case of thinking one thing, typing another!

For 5 year old electric cars, with ~ 100k miles on Auto Trader, you have a choice of
A Renault Zoe for £5995 with a range of 186 miles
A Nissan Leaf for £7500 with a range of 168 miles
A Hyundai Ioniq for £8,395 with a range of 174 miles
A Tesla Model 3 for £13,795 with a range of 254 miles

Auction prices could be a bit lower

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry that’s an error. I bought it in 2014 with 105k miles already (and at an auction, so with no dealer prep). I will edit the first post, given that the point I was trying to make was that new / nearly new cars are not the best choice! A case of thinking one thing, typing another!

Nearly new cars can be a decent choice if reliability is important to you - an older car can be a lottery - you've done OK out of it but you won't always.

New cars do appear to be basically financing massive depreciation. I personally think for a balance about 2-3 years old works for me.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I totally agree, @Bletchleyite

I bought my current car in spring 2018. 11 months old, it was the dealership demonstrator and it had barely been run in. The dealership still had enough margin "headroom", to sell it for 45% below its "as new" full list price.

All my previous purchases were of 4-5 years old petrol and, for me, the sweet spot between depreciation and reliability.

D segment sized cars don't need to be expensive.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I'm very much hoping that a suitably affordable EV of a suitable body shape becomes available in the next few years, but I fear it won't. I have a 2009 Ford Focus Estate and very few EVs seem to be conventional estate cars. Even with home charging, both the EV and ICE options described in this thread seem really expensive.

Those unfortunately seem like general problems in the car industry which frustrate me as well, estates have been falling out of favour for a while and EVs seem to be accelerating the trend. Also car prices are a good bit higher compared to a few years ago. I have a 2011 Mazda 6 I bought at three years old for £10,000, that model is now discontinued in favour of the much more popular CX-5 SUV but now to get an equivalent three year old Mazda 6 it's over £20,000.

However there is some promise with the release of the VW ID7 which has a good amount of interior space with a practical design (something the MG is definitely lacking in) and hopefully there will be other versions under the VW brands as well. Although as it's new now it will be a while before I could consider one but I'm curious how the second hand prices will fare against the Superbs and Passats. If there's no new allowances made for electric cars over the next couple of years it could mean poor second hand value and a good buy longer term if there are moves to push people away from petrol and diesel cars. I was looking at hiring a car for a weekend away and a Kia estate was going to be £320 but a Tesla Model Y was £270, a good bit cheaper.

 

[bspahh]

However there is some promise with the release of the VW ID7 which has a good amount of interior space with a practical design (something the MG is definitely lacking in) and hopefully there will be other versions under the VW brands as well. Although as it's new now it will be a while before I could consider one but I'm curious how the second hand prices will fare against the Superbs and Passats.

If there are cars that are on sale new today, which you might want to buy second hand in a few years time, its worth collecting the paper or PDF brochures, as they will have detailed information on the specifications that can be hard to find when the cars are no longer on sale.

You can then set up a search at Auto Trader and bookmark it, and track the price of cars. When you actually want to buy one, you will have a better idea of the prices, rather than the things that are on sale on that day.

You can see which cars have been sat on the forecourt for a while, perhaps because they have a problem that you hadn't noticed.

 

[yorksrob]

If I could drive, I wouldn't buy anything associated with Elon Skum.

 

[notverydeep]

For 5 year old electric cars, with ~ 100k miles on Auto Trader, you have a choice of
A Renault Zoe for £5995 with a range of 186 miles
A Nissan Leaf for £7500 with a range of 168 miles
A Hyundai Ioniq for £8,395 with a range of 174 miles
A Tesla Model 3 for £13,795 with a range of 254 miles

Auction prices could be a bit lower

Of these, the Ioniq is the closest match in terms of the required space, but sill well below the Focus for boot capacity. However, despite the EV premium coming down, 5 year old high mileage cars, like all second hand cars have inflated faster than other prices and wages since 2014. And most auctions are now trade only sadly. A couple of years yet..

I am not a car commuter, but if I was (and could charge at home or work) that Zoe would be a no brainer!