• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
22,931
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Probably not much. Personally I expect East West Rail to kill the X5 stone dead, even if the bus is still £2. Bus only tends to do well against rail when the rail service is particularly poor, because rail is generally so much faster and more comfortable.
Exactly this.

The fact is that, for the vast majority of people, they value speed and comfort over cost. Countless examples are littered across the country where a) an existing line that was rubbish has been improved and is more reliable/faster, or b) a line has been reopened and decimated the parallel bus services.

It's why it's a misnomer when people say buses should or shouldn't compete with trains...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

stevieinselby

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2013
Messages
1,692
Location
Selby
Probably not much. Personally I expect East West Rail to kill the X5 stone dead, even if the bus is still £2. Bus only tends to do well against rail when the rail service is particularly poor, because rail is generally so much faster and more comfortable.
The X5 is still the main service to Buckingham (which EWR doesn't serve), and provides a direct connection between Bedford and Milton Keynes (which EWR won't). It's also a long-established service. When buses are cheaper, or free for pensioners, they can still attract a decent number of passengers. I don't believe the X5 will disappear at all, although it might be reduced to hourly, like the X95 was between Edinburgh and Galashiels following the opening of the Borders Railway.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,257
Why do you think when London is barely winning its guerilla war with anti ulez activists , that a nationwide road pricing scheme isnt going to be very expensive from the sheer amount of vandalism a bunch of sitting duck cameras in the middle of nowhere will invite?
This is different, as it's effectively replacing one tax - fuel duty - with another.

And future electric cars won't need cameras to track them anyway, as they'll be so connected to the web, with all the driverless technology coming in. In the same way the GPS on a phone can be used to track an individual, the car's movement will be easily followed.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,274
Location
Bolton
The real issue is much less the £2 cap than the subsidy money.

If the Treasury thinks it can go back to the 2019 model of subsidy for the bus industry with a 2019 level of service they're sorely mistaken.

If the Fare Cap Grant is taken away and replaced with simply nothing we will have little bus industry left at all in England beyond urban areas and whatever parsimonious tendered routes can hang on as councils struggle more and more. You can charge 1p or £100 for singles, it makes no difference if there's no bus in the first place to get on. Fingers crossed as many as possible can survive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The X5 is still the main service to Buckingham (which EWR doesn't serve), and provides a direct connection between Bedford and Milton Keynes (which EWR won't). It's also a long-established service. When buses are cheaper, or free for pensioners, they can still attract a decent number of passengers. I don't believe the X5 will disappear at all, although it might be reduced to hourly, like the X95 was between Edinburgh and Galashiels following the opening of the Borders Railway.
It could also be split in Buckingham into a slightly less express Buckingham - Oxford and a similar Buckingham - Milton Keynes - Bedford as today. That might make it cheaper to run, or not depending on which depots were used. I'd rather it stayed similar to now personally but the bus industry is probably in for a rude awakening.

It will be many years before Oxford - Bedford trains could run as you say, and they may never get there. This particular pair is probably not a vast demand though...
 
Last edited:

Man of Kent

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
908
The X5 is still the main service to Buckingham (which EWR doesn't serve), and provides a direct connection between Bedford and Milton Keynes (which EWR won't). It's also a long-established service. When buses are cheaper, or free for pensioners, they can still attract a decent number of passengers. I don't believe the X5 will disappear at all, although it might be reduced to hourly, like the X95 was between Edinburgh and Galashiels following the opening of the Borders Railway.
Much of the off peak service has already been reduced to hourly (in some cases for a second time in September, after being restored to half-hourly).
 

renegademaster

Established Member
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
2,215
Location
Croydon
This is different, as it's effectively replacing one tax - fuel duty - with another.

And future electric cars won't need cameras to track them anyway, as they'll be so connected to the web, with all the driverless technology coming in. In the same way the GPS on a phone can be used to track an individual, the car's movement will be easily followed.
Thats not going to stop the conspiracy theorists (and people with genuine privacy concerns) being really against them. I wouldnt even be suprised if most the blade runners have compliant vehichles themselves, its not about the 10 quid.
 

Recessio

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
1,518
Location
London
@stevieinselby off topic but the problem with using MOT mileages is it doesn't take into account any mileage done abroad or on private roads
Not to mention people clocking their cars to reduce mileage

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

So was the telegraph article about the fare cap just a leak to float the idea, or has it actually been confirmed/denied by a government source yet?
 

duncombec

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2014
Messages
1,156
Not to mention people clocking their cars to reduce mileage

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

So was the telegraph article about the fare cap just a leak to float the idea, or has it actually been confirmed/denied by a government source yet?
It's unlikely anything will be confirmed before the budget - in any case that's what was given as a clear answer (for a politician) in last week's transport questions.

We already know (not least from informed posters here) that the Department for Transport has sought extensive data for modelling on £2.50 and £3 (which is largely what the early posts in this thread were about, before it got hijacked by the tickets-on-board-bad mafia).

My guess is that we will see a direct copy of the original Conservative plan for 2024, just moved forward a year to 2025, in that it will be £2.50 for 6 months and then £3 for 6 months.
 

joieman

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2024
Messages
971
Location
Loughborough
Thats not going to stop the conspiracy theorists (and people with genuine privacy concerns) being really against them. I wouldnt even be suprised if most the blade runners have compliant vehichles themselves, its not about the 10 quid.
One thing people are against, I think, are too many different forms of taxation. Personally, I think it's rather loopy that, for instance:
1) we pay income tax while saving money for a car;
2) we pay VAT on the car we buy;
3) some of us pay fuel duty on the purchase of fuel to run said car*;
4) we pay VED to drive the said car on public roads;
5) some of us pay congestion charges and/or emissions charges to drive into certain areas.

*Obviously not EV drivers!

Unfortunately, poorly-planned, haphazard taxation schemes are nothing new in this country, which has had more than its fair share of frankly daft taxes such as the window tax.

But also, people get up in arms over taxation systems that they consider too intrusive and/or they feel compromises their civil rights. This is why vigilantes have been running a long campaign of ULEZ camera vandalism, and also why many people are opposed to mileage-based vehicle taxation systems.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,316
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
One thing people are against, I think, are too many different forms of taxation.

Which is fine, but are people happy with a base rate of income tax of maybe 50% or VAT of 50%? If we wanted to narrow down the number of taxes, we would have to increase the amount of the ones that remained.
 

8ace

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2019
Messages
286
Location
Brighton
The road pricing scheme I read about would be based on trackers that some cars already have for insurance purposes (to check you drive sensibly or something). Maybe this subject needs its on thread apologies for derailing things.
 
Last edited:

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,537
Location
Isle of Man
Thats not going to stop the conspiracy theorists (and people with genuine privacy concerns) being really against them.
I don't think many people have genuine privacy concerns, though. They certainly wouldn't if they understood the huge amount of data that is already being collected. Take, for instance, the infrastructure used to work out the 'shadow tolls' charged for PFI-constructed motorways.

The ULEZ lot are conspiracy loons getting all swivel-eyed about 15-minute cities and- to be quite frank- most of them are really only upset because a Muslim mayor brought it in. They didn't care when it was Boris Johnson who was going to bring it in.
We already know (not least from informed posters here) that the Department for Transport has sought extensive data for modelling on £2.50 and £3 (which is largely what the early posts in this thread were about, before it got hijacked by the tickets-on-board-bad mafia).
I think that's probably the most likely outcome, £2 fares increasing upwards to £2.50 or £3. This would, in turn, allow day tickets to go back up to the £5 mark that most of them were charged at pre-covid.
 

renegademaster

Established Member
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
2,215
Location
Croydon
I don't think many people have genuine privacy concerns, though. They certainly wouldn't if they understood the huge amount of data that is already being collected. Take, for instance, the infrastructure used to work out the 'shadow tolls' charged for PFI-constructed motorways
I mean past abuses dont excuse, plus the goverment has a much poorer reccord with data breaches than someome like google that also snoop heavily.

That is really beside my point anyway. My main point will be that itll be stupidly expensive to enforce when every vaugely right leaning area starts to look like Bromley with every camera spray painted over.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,537
Location
Isle of Man
My main point will be that itll be stupidly expensive to enforce when every vaugely right leaning area starts to look like Bromley with every camera spray painted over.
The only way you can toll for the exact mileage used is by installing the equipment on the car. The idea of a network of cameras tracking your every move is fanciful, and not just in rural areas. Even the congestion charge zone and the ULEZ zone in London doesn't have a camera on every street. Those swivel-eyed loons spray-painting the cameras achieve nothing, as another camera will get you later in the day and you only need to be snapped once.

What will probably happen is that motorways, trunk roads, and city centres will become toll roads. Back to the days of the turnpikes, and a lot more palatable to those in rural areas.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,257
The only way you can toll for the exact mileage used is by installing the equipment on the car. The idea of a network of cameras tracking your every move is fanciful, and not just in rural areas. Even the congestion charge zone and the ULEZ zone in London doesn't have a camera on every street. Those swivel-eyed loons spray-painting the cameras achieve nothing, as another camera will get you later in the day and you only need to be snapped once.

What will probably happen is that motorways, trunk roads, and city centres will become toll roads. Back to the days of the turnpikes, and a lot more palatable to those in rural areas.
Though if you don't toll local roads, you'll end up with drivers driving through towns and villages to avoid the tolls.
 

Teapot42

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2022
Messages
1,120
That would be another big political battle that the current goverment who is obssessed with not rocking the boat is not going to fight
Out of interest, how do you feel the revenue currently extracted via fuel duty and the associated VAT can be recovered once the majority aren't buying their fuel in a way that can easily be taxed?

There is no perfect answer - increasing VED will penalise those who only travel short distances at the expense of those who travel much further, and there is a big argument that any new system needs to tackle congestion. There will end up being a broad consensus as to the most equitable approach, regardless of what a fringe group thinks.
 

Snex

Member
Joined
20 Jun 2018
Messages
449
The only way you can toll for the exact mileage used is by installing the equipment on the car. The idea of a network of cameras tracking your every move is fanciful, and not just in rural areas. Even the congestion charge zone and the ULEZ zone in London doesn't have a camera on every street. Those swivel-eyed loons spray-painting the cameras achieve nothing, as another camera will get you later in the day and you only need to be snapped once.

What will probably happen is that motorways, trunk roads, and city centres will become toll roads. Back to the days of the turnpikes, and a lot more palatable to those in rural areas.

Not a chance that will happen mind, as whichever government proposed it might aswell have their bags packed, as they'll be leaving the office at the next election. You just have to look at how bad some areas of London done over the ULEZ and that's tiny in comparison.
 

Teapot42

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2022
Messages
1,120
Though if you don't toll local roads, you'll end up with drivers driving through towns and villages to avoid the tolls.
Maybe, but if your tolled road takes a fraction of the time and is in much better condition then at least a decent percentage will choose that option. It all depends of the level of the toll really. As per my earlier post it probably needs to average 6-7p a mile to replace fuel duty on a one for one basis.

I'd suspect it will end up being a sliding scale based on the type of road, with possibly reductions for local travel in certain areas where public transport isn't a viable choice.

And, of course, things will get shake up again in the not too distant future when self-driving cars shake up the ownership model completely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Not a chance that will happen mind, as whichever government proposed it might aswell have their bags packed because they'll be leaving the office at the next election. You just have to look at how bad some areas of London done over the ULEZ there and that's tiny in comparison.
To my mind that is just another argument for moving to PR. It's too difficult to bring in much needed reform under FPTP as anyone who tries knows they'll likely be out as the rewards won't be obvious until well after the next election. At least with PR a drastic swing in the makeup of government is less likely, so the less popular reforms might have some chance.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,274
Location
Bolton
Though if you don't toll local roads, you'll end up with drivers driving through towns and villages to avoid the tolls.
This doesn't seem to happen all that much in France. I guess that's partly because French drivers know the autoroute is highly reliable though.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,537
Location
Isle of Man
You just have to look at how bad some areas of London done over the ULEZ and that's tiny in comparison.
The protests about ULEZ have been massively overstated in the right wing press.

If we move away from ICE cars something needs to replace that revenue. Makes sense that those who use the roads pay for them.
 

Trainman40083

Established Member
Joined
29 Jan 2024
Messages
4,591
Location
Derby
The X5 is still the main service to Buckingham (which EWR doesn't serve), and provides a direct connection between Bedford and Milton Keynes (which EWR won't). It's also a long-established service. When buses are cheaper, or free for pensioners, they can still attract a decent number of passengers. I don't believe the X5 will disappear at all, although it might be reduced to hourly, like the X95 was between Edinburgh and Galashiels following the opening of the Borders Railway.
My understanding was that EWR would serve Milton Keynes. But whether it has available capacity before HS2 opens, I don't know.
 

Snex

Member
Joined
20 Jun 2018
Messages
449
To my mind that is just another argument for moving to PR. It's too difficult to bring in much needed reform under FPTP as anyone who tries knows they'll likely be out as the rewards won't be obvious until well after the next election. At least with PR a drastic swing in the makeup of government is less likely, so the less popular reforms might have some chance.

Can't disagree at all there. Britain, in general, is way too short term orientated when it comes to politics, which leads to most the major political disasters which happen. HS2 being a prime example of it

The protests about ULEZ have been massively overstated in the right wing press.

If we move away from ICE cars something needs to replace that revenue. Makes sense that those who use the roads pay for them.

Don't disagree but touching roads is always a toxic topic which did affect the results of some seats in London where it happened. The right wing press sadly have a lot of control when it comes to politics so it's usually best to not feed them things to use. Something Corbyn really didn't understand and fell into every trap they laid.

It's an awkward one and I don't know what the answer is really but personally I'd love to see people who live in areas with good public transport and have no excuse to be driving taxed more than someone living in a farm in the Highlands of Scotland. How you do that, I'm not sure.
 

renegademaster

Established Member
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
2,215
Location
Croydon
most equitable approach
Why do you assume its going to be equitable rather than whats politically easier to collect, our taxation is far from perfectly progressive. Why do you also assume the funding shortfall isnt going to be responded to with borrowing or austerity. Theres so many options other than the alleged inevitbility of road pricing. Not to mention EVs are going to create savings by removing lots of the externalities of ICE , combined with road accident rates that will likely further decline with reduced car use and automatic safety systems
 

stevieinselby

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2013
Messages
1,692
Location
Selby
My understanding was that EWR would serve Milton Keynes. But whether it has available capacity before HS2 opens, I don't know.
The core of EWR will have two service patterns:
Oxford – Bicester – Bletchley – Milton Keynes
Oxford – Bicester – Bletchley – Bedford (– Cambridge)
There will be no EWR services between Milton Keynes and Bedford.
 

slowroad

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2021
Messages
371
Location
Wales
The protests about ULEZ have been massively overstated in the right wing press.

If we move away from ICE cars something needs to replace that revenue. Makes sense that those who use the roads pay for

The protests about ULEZ have been massively overstated in the right wing press.

If we move away from ICE cars something needs to replace that revenue. Makes sense that those who use the roads pay for them.
Road pricing may make sense, but if it is done on the basis of paying for roads it will still leave a large revenue gap. In recent years total spending on roads has been less than one third of motor tax revenues.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,257
The protests about ULEZ have been massively overstated in the right wing press.

If we move away from ICE cars something needs to replace that revenue. Makes sense that those who use the roads pay for them.
The ULEZ within inner London (i.e. within the north and south circulars) caused barely a murmur.

The whole motoring tax regime needs to be ripped up and started again once electric cars become the norm. Never mind not having to pay fuel duty, at the moment those people who can charge at home get a massive benefit of only paying domestic 5% VAT, whereas if you use a public charging point you pay standard 20%.

A fixed cost per mile seems entirely logical, with no exceptions.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,325
A fixed cost per mile seems entirely logical, with no exceptions.
It does, but charging more at peak time also seems logical, other than it then becomes a 'tax on working people' is some eyes.

Ultimately, the success or otherwise, would be measured in terms of modal shift that the £2 cap hasn't really delivered.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top