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Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

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Trainman40083

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If the government decides to completely scrap the £2 fare cap at the end of December, what are bus companies most likely to do? Will they go back to exactly the same fare structures for pricing single fares as 2 years ago? There is, of course 2 years worth quite high of inflation to consider which would result in fares being much higher than 2 years ago. The price of day tickets has continued to rise with inflation during the period of the £2 cap. My local Stagecoach day ticket was £7.90 at the end of 2022. During the last 2 years this first rose to £8.50 and more recently another increase to £9.50. Is there any chance that some individual bus companies will initially price single fares at a level lower than they were before the £2 cap to soften the blow.
Well, where I live 2.5 miles out of a City Centre the "normal" fare was £2.70 single. Now £3.10 and maybe another increase in 2025.

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If the government decides to completely scrap the £2 fare cap at the end of December, what are bus companies most likely to do? Will they go back to exactly the same fare structures for pricing single fares as 2 years ago? There is, of course 2 years worth quite high of inflation to consider which would result in fares being much higher than 2 years ago. The price of day tickets has continued to rise with inflation during the period of the £2 cap. My local Stagecoach day ticket was £7.90 at the end of 2022. During the last 2 years this first rose to £8.50 and more recently another increase to £9.50. Is there any chance that some individual bus companies will initially price single fares at a level lower than they were before the £2 cap to soften the blow.
Where I live, when the £2 fare came in, the normal fare was £2.70 . Now £3.10, and no doubt there will be an increase in 2025, unless there is a cap.
 
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Bletchleyite

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To be fair it's those more local fares where poorer people will be hit most. It doesn't really make an awful lot of sense that Oxford to Cambridge on the X5/905 for a day out (through fares still exist) is £2, but it does make sense that fares used by people to get to work, healthcare and education are subsidised and discounted. The "not for long distance coaches or tourist routes" thing sort of dealt with that, but not entirely, because despite the X5 being a long distance route it's registered in bits so counts as several short distance ones - but with a £2 through fare still possible.
 

HSTEd

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I must admit from my experience of Manchester buses, I am not at all sold on "tap and cap" systems.

The number of failed transactions with people using debit cards or phones pretending to be debit cards is ludicrous.
But something has to be done to eliminate on board payment, my buses to and from work regularly spend more time stopped than moving.
 

1D54

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Advance purchase rail tickets for me to do the six mile trip to work every day if the cap disappears. It'll need to be AP as i can't get any sort of season ticket using a railcard. It will work out cheaper than £4 return a day but one train per hour compared to three buses will be a pain.
 

Bletchleyite

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Advance purchase rail tickets for me to do the six mile trip to work every day if the cap disappears. It'll need to be AP as i can't get any sort of season ticket using a railcard. It will work out cheaper than £4 return a day but one train per hour compared to three buses will be a pain.

A bus season ticket might offer you better value. Monthlies are very often only three or four quid per day, sometimes even less.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I must admit from my experience of Manchester buses, I am not at all sold on "tap and cap" systems.

The number of failed transactions with people using debit cards or phones pretending to be debit cards is ludicrous.
But something has to be done to eliminate on board payment, my buses to and from work regularly spend more time stopped than moving.

I don't think Ticketer implements it (or anything else at all, for that matter, at least from a passenger perspective) particularly well. It works absolutely fine in London. Perhaps a competitor will come up with a more robust design.
 

ChrisC

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Where I live, when the £2 fare came in, the normal fare was £2.70 . Now £3.10, and no doubt there will be an increase in 2025, unless there is a cap.
From where I live, when the £2 fare came in, the normal fare into Mansfield, 7 miles away, was £4.50. I believe the normal single fare is now £5.50.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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366 postings made so far on thus thread, but "The Budget Day of Judgement" will reveal all.

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The Torygraph are today doom-mongering ......
In my earlier days of 1950's railway travel, I always assumed that I could see telegraph poles. Thank you for correcting my incorrect name for them. I shall now remember them by their correct name of torygraph poles.
 
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Trainman40083

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I must admit from my experience of Manchester buses, I am not at all sold on "tap and cap" systems.

The number of failed transactions with people using debit cards or phones pretending to be debit cards is ludicrous.
But something has to be done to eliminate on board payment, my buses to and from work regularly spend more time stopped than moving.
I have seen this happen. I wonder if anyone knows why, say a debit card, with ample funds, would decline. Surely it doesn't need a PIN number, you can't enter?
 

HSTEd

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I have seen this happen. I wonder if anyone knows why, say a debit card, with ample funds, would decline. Surely it doesn't need a PIN number, you can't enter?
Well I think there are probably some people who don't have ample funds but try to blag their way onto the bus, but mostly I think its just because the implementation is awful.

Those machines do not appear rugged in the slightest.
 

Teapot42

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Off topic, but road pricing will have to come in at some point to replace the massive sums raised from fuel duty.
Without a doubt. Simple economics means something has to replace fuel duty once a significant percentage of the cars on the road are electric. An average driver will use 1000l of fuel per year (10k miles at 45mpg), which contributes £529.50 in fuel duty alone to the government, plus the VAT on top. They can't easily add anything on to electricity as it's used so much more widely throughout the home, and anyone with solar might not even pay for charging at all.

Increasing VED isn't equitable as it has no reflection on the distance driven, or type of roads used. There is a big argument that where public transport isn't a viable alternative (rural drivers for example) then charging excessively for car usage isn't sensible. Therefore, road pricing with variable amounts based on where you drive is the only equitable option. How they do this without a significant risk of fraud or crime related to avoiding the charge is another question of course!
 

Trainman40083

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Well I think there are probably some people who don't have ample funds but try to blag their way onto the bus, but mostly I think its just because the implementation is awful.

Those machines do not appear rugged in the slightest.
I've seen a couple of lads. Card declined on the bus. They went to a ATM, got cash out, and the bus was gone. In one case, the next bus was cancelled. So it worked in a cash machine, not on the bus.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have seen this happen. I wonder if anyone knows why, say a debit card, with ample funds, would decline. Surely it doesn't need a PIN number, you can't enter?

Some Stagecoach machines (these ones aren't Ticketer) seem to dislike Apple Pay, but they're in a poor state of repair anyway (many with broken screens) and need replacement.
 

johncrossley

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I must admit from my experience of Manchester buses, I am not at all sold on "tap and cap" systems.

Which "Manchester buses" are you talking about? The Bee Network hasn't implemented tap and cap yet. As for the remaining commercial operators in Greater Manchester, very few of those have tap and cap. I can only think of Arriva Merseyside, and they only operate a few services in the far west of the county.
 

WibbleWobble

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I have seen this happen. I wonder if anyone knows why, say a debit card, with ample funds, would decline. Surely it doesn't need a PIN number, you can't enter?
Banks and merchants don't like lots of small transactions (often known as microtransactions) as it can be the sign of something iffy. Given some people may use their card or phone during the week for just bus travel, with larger transactions at weekends, there's too many simultaneous microtransactions. It needs the user to either make a larger transaction, or put their card in a cash machine and input the PIN.
 

WelshBluebird

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Banks and merchants don't like lots of small transactions (often known as microtransactions) as it can be the sign of something iffy. Given some people may use their card or phone during the week for just bus travel, with larger transactions at weekends, there's too many simultaneous microtransactions. It needs the user to either make a larger transaction, or put their card in a cash machine and input the PIN.
Tap on for buses and the like should be using transit mode which shouldn't trigger the systems you mention specifically because of what you say.
 

kkong

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As I understand it (outside London), there is typically no online authorisation of the transaction during bus boarding; settlement is done at the end of the day.

The card is checked for validity and that it's not on the operator's blacklist (insufficient funds when the same card was used previously on the same operator).
 

geoffk

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To be fair it's those more local fares where poorer people will be hit most. It doesn't really make an awful lot of sense that Oxford to Cambridge on the X5/905 for a day out (through fares still exist) is £2, but it does make sense that fares used by people to get to work, healthcare and education are subsidised and discounted. The "not for long distance coaches or tourist routes" thing sort of dealt with that, but not entirely, because despite the X5 being a long distance route it's registered in bits so counts as several short distance ones - but with a £2 through fare still possible.
I wonder how much revenue the railways are losing to these longer-distance bus routes (not Oxford - Cambridge obviously, but Leeds - Scarborough or Newcastle - Carlisle for example).
 

Trainman40083

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I wonder how much revenue the railways are losing to these longer-distance bus routes (not Oxford - Cambridge obviously, but Leeds - Scarborough or Newcastle - Carlisle for example).
I've not noticed any less passengers on any trains I have been on ..For some, price will be less of a decider , as time may be more of a consideration.
 

HSTEd

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Which "Manchester buses" are you talking about? The Bee Network hasn't implemented tap and cap yet. As for the remaining commercial operators in Greater Manchester, very few of those have tap and cap. I can only think of Arriva Merseyside, and they only operate a few services in the far west of the county.
Not specifically tap and cap, but Stagecoach regularly rejects cards or phones pretending to be cards. Or takes an inordinant amount of time to recognise them.

If they can't even do it properly now, I have no confidence that tap and cap is actually going to speed anything up
 

johncrossley

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Not specifically tap and cap, but Stagecoach regularly rejects cards or phones pretending to be cards. Or takes an inordinant amount of time to recognise them.

But that is not at all comparable. Have you been somewhere, like London, where they have been using contactless cards as the ticket itself (not as a way of buying a paper ticket) for many years?

TfL need cards to be swiped in very fast, otherwise the Victoria Line gate line would have long queues. So they wouldn't tolerate contactless bank card use if it wasn't quick.
 

A S Leib

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It's an hourly bus vs 2 tph, the bus is 30+ minutes longer and advance tickets for £2-£3 aren't frequently hard to find (although admittedly I'm not normally looking for fares into Newcastle on weekday mornings when they might be rarer), so I'd be surprised if many people taking the bus now would switch to the train because of the £2 cap on that route.

For last-minute travellers saving £11-£15 (without a railcard) might seem more attractive though.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder how much revenue the railways are losing to these longer-distance bus routes (not Oxford - Cambridge obviously, but Leeds - Scarborough or Newcastle - Carlisle for example).

Probably not much. Personally I expect East West Rail to kill the X5 stone dead, even if the bus is still £2. Bus only tends to do well against rail when the rail service is particularly poor, because rail is generally so much faster and more comfortable.
 

Mikey C

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As I understand it (outside London), there is typically no online authorisation of the transaction during bus boarding; settlement is done at the end of the day.

The card is checked for validity and that it's not on the operator's blacklist (insufficient funds when the same card was used previously on the same operator).
Yes, I found it quite confusing when I looked at my credit card statement after using it on a bus outside London for the first time, and saw that I had only been charged 20p, as the full amount didn't go through until some time later.
 

Ghostbus

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A relative spent £4 to do Newcastle to Scarborough for a holiday.

I doubt the railway is losing much. They had no idea it was even possible until I broke it down for them and reassured them repeatedly and vehemently, with links, that this was really a thing. Hourly bus services, early til late. No booking. Cash or card. Fully tracked. Double deckers. Proper bus stations. Even leather seats and a table for the first leg. Presumably a bog standard Enviro400 for the second leg. Probable just as comfy as a Northern train.

A pound per hour travelled.

I doubt most people ever really knew about this amazing alternative to the train. This absolute gift horse in tough times. They only get to take this one short trip away a year, and usually with not much notice due to the pressure of work and family life.

I'm not even shocked that the railway (the government) want over £50 to make that same journey with the same notice, even in this dreary out of season period. Absolute rip off. That's before you even see "Specified train only, no refunds". Quick quick, buy now! Only four left! Sheesh.

The railways are so lucky that (to my absolute surprise), express coach operators want no part of the Newcastle to Scarborough market. They'll be back on the train next year I suppose. I might check the standard bus fare, just to give them the hopefully reasonably cheap but slow option compared to the train.

I might even just hire a car and drive them if the rates have fallen to pre-Covid levels, around £80 for this trip (hire and fuel, out and back twice), just to spite the LNER drivers. Just as quick as the train, but with no changes either. And with privacy, comfort, convenience and a virtually guaranteed arrival, on time, door to door. Never had a hire car break down on me yet.
 

renegademaster

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Without a doubt. Simple economics means something has to replace fuel duty once a significant percentage of the cars on the road are electric. An average driver will use 1000l of fuel per year (10k miles at 45mpg), which contributes £529.50 in fuel duty alone to the government, plus the VAT on top. They can't easily add anything on to electricity as it's used so much more widely throughout the home, and anyone with solar might not even pay for charging at all.

Increasing VED isn't equitable as it has no reflection on the distance driven, or type of roads used. There is a big argument that where public transport isn't a viable alternative (rural drivers for example) then charging excessively for car usage isn't sensible. Therefore, road pricing with variable amounts based on where you drive is the only equitable option. How they do this without a significant risk of fraud or crime related to avoiding the charge is another question of course!
Why do you think when London is barely winning its guerilla war with anti ulez activists , that a nationwide road pricing scheme isnt going to be very expensive from the sheer amount of vandalism a bunch of sitting duck cameras in the middle of nowhere will invite?
 
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stevieinselby

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Great if you fancy living in an orwellian country. As this would mean even more cameras everywhere and recording every journey you make.
That depends how it is done. It could be a very simple flat rate per mile, in which case all the government needs to know is how many miles you've driven (which they can get from the MOT records), not where/when you've driven. That would be the cheapest solution as it wouldn't require very much infrastructure, whereas cameras on every street would be prohibitively expensive, and trackers in every car would be hard to implement retrospectively for cars already on the road. Unless they do what the water companies did when they wanted people to switch to meters, and charge a punitively high VED rate for any cars not fitted with trackers.

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I'm not saying that road pricing would be popular, but you need to bear in mind that you're talking about a country where a quarter of the population backed permanent nightclub closures during Covid. Of course, "people who drive" is a much larger group than "people who go to nightclubs".
I've no doubt that the Daily Mail and its ilk will kick up the most almighty fuss, and so must people will be vehemently against it and will give the most ridiculous reasons and pretexts to justify their views. It's very likely that getting on for half of motorists will see their costs fall under road pricing, because for people who drive low mileages (or drive on quiet roads at quiet times, if variable pricing is introduced) the new road pricing costs will be offset by reductions in VED or fuel duty.
 
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