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I don’t believe what you’re quoting says what you claim. If you want to enter the UK “as a UK citizen” then you need those documents. However linked from your 3million link is a response from the Border Force stating:
That section is specific to UK-EU/EEA dual citizens and is likely just for travel relatively soon. The UK ETA guidance states dual citizens must enter on their British passports. Perhaps the guidance will carve out an exception for EU/EEA dual citizens when their second passports require UK ETA in April but I haven't seen anything to suggest that. I might have missed something though.
As a UK citizen born outside of the UK but now living in Ireland I ran into so many issues when trying to fly on my driving licence , with regards to the guards at Dublin Airport that now I just take my passport with me everytime anyway
There was an Irish times piece about the myth of passport-free CTA flying a few weeks back as well
Frankly I think it would be best just to impose full border controls for RoI - GB travel. It would only require a small detachment at the sea borders and changing in procedure at airports.
Frankly I think it would be best just to impose full border controls for RoI - GB travel. It would only require a small detachment at the sea borders and changing in procedure at airports.
But that would be meaningless without also having controls on the land border and breaking the Good Friday agreement, or having them between NI and GB as well which caused enough problems when it was just goods affected.
But that would be meaningless without also having controls on the land border and breaking the Good Friday agreement, or having them between NI and GB as well which caused enough problems when it was just goods affected.
It would set things up for when there is a united Ireland. In the mean time it would catch more of the anomalies mentioned in this thread, which are only going to become more of a problem with EES/EITAS and UK ETA. It would shrink the hole entering and leaving GB to just travel to and from Northern Ireland. I agree that border checks within the UK would be unacceptable but travellers could be subject to better surveillance.
Enforcement will become much stronger when UK ETA phases 3 and 4 occur early next year. UK ETA won't be valid if issued to a British Citizen. It's causing aggravation within my brothers social circle because of other British emmigrants who no longer have British passports or whose kids have never have one. They will be required to get one for travel after 8th January. I suspect leeway will be given for a while but a British citizen traveling to the UK on another passport could be offloaded. Requiring Citizens to enter a country using the national Passport is normal. The UK and EU are just copying countries that already have ETAs.
US citizens have managed to get ESTAs in their foreign passports and Australian citizens have managed to get ETAs in their foreign passports. I doubt the UK system will be sophisticated enough to tell in many cases. Nobody is going to get offloaded from a flight. If the system believes you are a citizen it would just not issue the ETA and you wouldn't get on in the first place. I suppose theoretically the ETA system could do a periodic sweep of the foreign passport numbers of all new citizens and revoke any ETAs, which would also stop you checking in.
Citizens travelling to Australia on a foreign passport may get a telling off when they arrive but I do not think they would be subject to any penalty, and the same for the US. Citizens can't be denied entry if they make it to the border.
Canada specifically allows US/Canadian citizens to travel to Canada with only their US passport, as Americans don't need eTAs; as Canadians don't need ESTAs, such people could also in practice travel to the US with only a Canadian passport. A similar situation exists between Australia and NZ and will exist between the UK and ROI (I expect Ireland to introduce a similar scheme in due course). New Zealand also specifically allows citizens to enter on a foreign passport, if they get an endorsement of their NZ citizenship there (whereas you can never get a UK CoERoA again after you get a British passport).
But that would be meaningless without also having controls on the land border and breaking the Good Friday agreement, or having them between NI and GB as well which caused enough problems when it was just goods affected.
Between NI and GB is a no-no. Even during The Troubles, it was never considered, although mandatory ID checks were quite normal on the land border when passing through military checkpoints.
Interesting to see Border Force accepting that you can use your non-UK passport to enter the UK. Must try this next time out of idle curiosity.
I was travelling GB-NI frequently in the mid-1980s. True there was no identity check, but there was a chap (reputedly Special Branch) at a little desk labelled 'Police' observing arrivals at Heathrow, Birmingham and Manchester at least. Occasionally you saw someone being stopped. I think the same happened for Dublin arrivals but I can't be sure.
So no border, but an effectively policed boundary.
On UK-IE ferry I had a full border control (which was waving me through as a EU citizen). And on flights, Ireland doesn't segregate on arrival so everyone has to go through passport control.
US citizens have managed to get ESTAs in their foreign passports and Australian citizens have managed to get ETAs in their foreign passports. I doubt the UK system will be sophisticated enough to tell in many cases. Nobody is going to get offloaded from a flight. If the system believes you are a citizen it would just not issue the ETA and you wouldn't get on in the first place. I suppose theoretically the ETA system could do a periodic sweep of the foreign passport numbers of all new citizens and revoke any ETAs, which would also stop you checking in.
Citizens travelling to Australia on a foreign passport may get a telling off when they arrive but I do not think they would be subject to any penalty, and the same for the US. Citizens can't be denied entry if they make it to the border.
Canada specifically allows US/Canadian citizens to travel to Canada with only their US passport, as Americans don't need eTAs; as Canadians don't need ESTAs, such people could also in practice travel to the US with only a Canadian passport. A similar situation exists between Australia and NZ and will exist between the UK and ROI (I expect Ireland to introduce a similar scheme in due course). New Zealand also specifically allows citizens to enter on a foreign passport, if they get an endorsement of their NZ citizenship there (whereas you can never get a UK CoERoA again after you get a British passport).
Holders of South African passports entering South Africa on a foreign passport will encounter big trouble and possibly a fine. Try it a second time and likely proceedings will be started to strip you of your South African citizenship.
US citizens have managed to get ESTAs in their foreign passports and Australian citizens have managed to get ETAs in their foreign passports. I doubt the UK system will be sophisticated enough to tell in many cases. Nobody is going to get offloaded from a flight. If the system believes you are a citizen it would just not issue the ETA and you wouldn't get on in the first place. I suppose theoretically the ETA system could do a periodic sweep of the foreign passport numbers of all new citizens and revoke any ETAs, which would also stop you checking in.
Citizens travelling to Australia on a foreign passport may get a telling off when they arrive but I do not think they would be subject to any penalty, and the same for the US. Citizens can't be denied entry if they make it to the border.
Canada specifically allows US/Canadian citizens to travel to Canada with only their US passport, as Americans don't need eTAs; as Canadians don't need ESTAs, such people could also in practice travel to the US with only a Canadian passport. A similar situation exists between Australia and NZ and will exist between the UK and ROI (I expect Ireland to introduce a similar scheme in due course). New Zealand also specifically allows citizens to enter on a foreign passport, if they get an endorsement of their NZ citizenship there (whereas you can never get a UK CoERoA again after you get a British passport).
I was travelling GB-NI frequently in the mid-1980s. True there was no identity check, but there was a chap (reputedly Special Branch) at a little desk labelled 'Police' observing arrivals at Heathrow, Birmingham and Manchester at least. Occasionally you saw someone being stopped. I think the same happened for Dublin arrivals but I can't be sure.
So no border, but an effectively policed boundary.
A much smaller policed boundary for GB would help when you consider GB is about 97% the population and economy of the UK. We should be in a situation where if a wanted person enters Belfast Port or Airport they are detected by facial recognition on CCTV and have police waiting for them on arrival in GB. That would still be an open border for non criminals. It's in essence just a 21st version of having a police officer observe passengers.
On UK-IE ferry I had a full border control (which was waving me through as a EU citizen). And on flights, Ireland doesn't segregate on arrival so everyone has to go through passport control.
British Citizens should be waived through too, I have every time I have used Dublin Port. Unfortunately the Garda have been heavily criticised for racial profiling for CTA "random" checks. Full border controls between GB and RoI would be fairer.
I was travelling GB-NI frequently in the mid-1980s. True there was no identity check, but there was a chap (reputedly Special Branch) at a little desk labelled 'Police' observing arrivals at Heathrow, Birmingham and Manchester at least. Occasionally you saw someone being stopped. I think the same happened for Dublin arrivals but I can't be sure.
So no border, but an effectively policed boundary.
Holders of South African passports entering South Africa on a foreign passport will encounter big trouble and possibly a fine. Try it a second time and likely proceedings will be started to strip you of your South African citizenship.
Yes it seems to be a specific offence in South Africa, a country which also requires adults to obtain permission to have multiple citizenships.
If you are a (People's Republic of) China citizen and you attempt to use a foreign passport in the PRC migration zone, your PRC citizenship may be immediately stripped - as multiple citizenships are forbidden (unless you are a "special" person).
This isn't going to happen. The UK and Ireland migration policies are diverging and there is too much bad history to make such a policy politically viable.
What would help though is Ireland launching its own ETA and being connected with UK ETA to share each other's data.
Or a "proper" CTA where the UK and ROI (and IOM and CI) are in a single migration zone like Schengen.
I flew domestic to and from Derry Airport last year and saw the same, also had police checks on GB-NI ferries.
Yes it seems to be a specific offence in South Africa, a country which also requires adults to obtain permission to have multiple citizenships.
If you are a (People's Republic of) China citizen and you attempt to use a foreign passport in the PRC migration zone, your PRC citizenship may be immediately stripped - as multiple citizenships are forbidden (unless you are a "special" person).
The previous labour government under T Blair tried to make the key change needed (other than getting political consensus and electoral consent), to get us into the schengen zone. That change being national ID cards. You need them. Labour told us they wanted to introduce ID cards to combat benefit fraud and NHS tourism. The truth is that national ID cards are a neccessary requirement for a country to join Schengen. Ironic that it was defeated on 'civil liberties' grounds.
The UK acts as such from what I can gather, it's Ireland mostly that doesn't. The UK doesn't have any fixed controls for CTA flights, while Ireland doesn't segregate and everyone has to pass through international arrivals.
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I wonder if that could have been a different results if the driver licenses could be upgraded and act as ID (like in the US and Canada, by adding nationality and place of birth), I never understood the unneeded duplication when one card could do both ID and DL
The UK acts as such from what I can gather, it's Ireland mostly that doesn't. The UK doesn't have any fixed controls for CTA flights, while Ireland doesn't segregate and everyone has to pass through international arrivals.
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I wonder if that could have been a different results if the driver licenses could be upgraded and act as ID (like in the US and Canada, by adding nationality and place of birth), I never understood the unneeded duplication when one card could do both ID and DL
The UK acts as such from what I can gather, it's Ireland mostly that doesn't. The UK doesn't have any fixed controls for CTA flights, while Ireland doesn't segregate and everyone has to pass through international arrivals.
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I wonder if that could have been a different results if the driver licenses could be upgraded and act as ID (like in the US and Canada, by adding nationality and place of birth), I never understood the unneeded duplication when one card could do both ID and DL
Also, in upgrading a drivers licence to do both, you don't take away the requirement for an ID card, as you would quite rightly need one for people that don't drive.
For the unique reason because they don't state the nationality of the traveler, if you add the nationality to an existing driver's license, I would be pretty confident it could become a valid for travel piece of id. Though one not compliant with the ID card regulation
The previous labour government under T Blair tried to make the key change needed (other than getting political consensus and electoral consent), to get us into the schengen zone. That change being national ID cards. You need them. Labour told us they wanted to introduce ID cards to combat benefit fraud and NHS tourism. The truth is that national ID cards are a neccessary requirement for a country to join Schengen. Ironic that it was defeated on 'civil liberties' grounds.
We should be in a situation where if a wanted person enters Belfast Port or Airport they are detected by facial recognition on CCTV and have police waiting for them on arrival in GB.
Unfortunately, Brexit pretty much rules that out, as EU citizens have freedom of movement to the RoI but not to the other CTA jurisdictions. A single migration zone made sense pre-Brexit, but without UK-EU freedom of movement, it's a non-starter.
I was travelling GB-NI frequently in the mid-1980s. True there was no identity check, but there was a chap (reputedly Special Branch) at a little desk labelled 'Police' observing arrivals at Heathrow, Birmingham and Manchester at least. Occasionally you saw someone being stopped. I think the same happened for Dublin arrivals but I can't be sure.
Yes, it was certainly Special Branch. A friend was lifted quite frequently on accounts of him constantly travelling between Dublin and London, until one of them decided to take it to his superior, who gave him a letter confirming that he was known to Special Branch and that he wasn't a person of interest. He was in the business of smuggling cars into the RoI from the UK, and as Special Branch said, customs regulations were of zero interest to them.
The previous labour government under T Blair tried to make the key change needed (other than getting political consensus and electoral consent), to get us into the schengen zone. That change being national ID cards. You need them. Labour told us they wanted to introduce ID cards to combat benefit fraud and NHS tourism. The truth is that national ID cards are a neccessary requirement for a country to join Schengen. Ironic that it was defeated on 'civil liberties' grounds.
The UK was involved in the discussions about Schengen from the beginning, and it wasn't until the mid 90s under John Major that the UK finally ruled out joining. Had it stayed as a project between France, Germany and the Benelux, the UK probably would have joined along with Ireland.
ID cards are not a necessary requirement to join Schengen. While Denmark doesn't have one, other countries only have optional ID cards, and in some countries, it's the norm for people to only have passports and not ID cards. Most of my Swedish friends for example don't have an ID card. Even France doesn't have mandatory ID cards.
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UK citizens with other nationalities, seeking to enter the UK are required under Home Office rules to use their UK passport for this purpose, unless they have paid more than three times the cost of a passport to have a "certificate of entitlement to the right of abode" endorsed in their foreign passport. Further reading on the subject:
Part 1 of the Immigration Act 1971, particularly sections 1, 2, 3 (1) And (8)
Whilst enforcement of this requirement is variable, and someone presenting at the border with a passport from a country whose citizens do not need a visa to enter the UK is likely to be admitted with few enquiries, what I originally wrote in post 21 is correct.
It is recommended that a dual national with British citizenship should travel on either a British passport or a non-British passport that is endorsed with a certificate of entitlement to the right of abode, in order to demonstrate to a carrier that they are a British citizen and therefore have permission to travel to the UK on this basis.
If a dual national is seeking to travel solely on a non-British passport, without a certificate of entitlement stamp, they could experience difficulties when trying to travel to the UK and risk being denied boarding if their non-British passport provides no evidence of their claimed British citizenship.
Dual nationals may choose to present a valid national passport in either of their nationalities at the UK border. However those who hold a UK passport may find it most straightforward to present this in order to prevent unnecessary delays on arrival. Where a dual national wishes to travel to the UK using their EU identity card instead of a passport, they will need to check the requirements of their carrier in advance of travel. Upon arrival in the UK, they should be aware that Border Force will need to undertake further checks to be satisfied as to their British nationality and this may result in delays.
Where a person cannot provide direct evidence of the nationality, they wish to enter the UK under (e.g. British passport), the Border Force officer must consider whether they are satisfied that the person is British. Relevant evidence to consider will be certificate of naturalisation, registration or entitlement, or proof that they were born in the UK, and evidence regarding the citizenship or status of their parents at the time of their birth. However, any dual national seeking to travel in this way should also be aware that Border Force may need to carry out further checks and that this may delay onward travel.
Obviously if you do not have any simple way to prove that you are a British citizen, it is much easier to present a British passport, but you are in no means required to do so. I, for one, regularly travel to Europe and often use e-Gates and manual checks entering/exiting on my EU passport.
I do not see how these rules would be any different for a second citizen of a non-EU country but, as stated, it may cause delays when entering.
If you only present a non-visa-free passport at the check in desk, no airline will let you fly (though Eurostar and maybe the ferries at Calais will likely let you present yourself to UK Passport Control)
I'm not sure how that's related. There are other countries with mandatory ID cards, e.g. Belgium and Germany, and identity theft is becoming a problem.
Yes, i guess that is because Denmark has a specific opt out of the eu 'area of freedom, security and justice'. It would be buried somewhere deep with that.
In just the same way that you couldn't deny that the eu has a single currency on the basis that Denmark (and a few others aren't in it).
Remember that while being randomly ID checked within schengen, means that you should have that ID available (and Denmark does have optional ID cards that enable Danes to cover themselves in this situation), the method of working, in the words (paraphrased) of the eu is that every opportunity should be given to the individual to prove their ID however they can.
Yes, i guess that is because Denmark has a specific opt out of the eu 'area of freedom, security and justice'. It would be buried somewhere deep with that.
Remember that while being randomly ID checked within schengen, means that you should have that ID available (and Denmark does have optional ID cards that enable Danes to cover themselves in this situation),
Nordic citizens don't need to have ID within the Nordic Passport Union area, similar to the UK CTA. They only need a travel document when they travel outside of the Nordic Passport Union area, although in practice, they will carry something like a driving licence or a bank card when they travel within the area.
Nobody said anything about "mandatory"; you have brought that up yourself. All EU member states except Denmark issue national ID cards valid for travel (in Ireland's case styled the "passport card"). Whether it is mandatory to obtain the card, or to carry it or other ID, varies from one member state to another.
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Obviously if you do not have any simple way to prove that you are a British citizen, it is much easier to present a British passport, but you are in no means required to do so. I, for one, regularly travel to Europe and often use e-Gates and manual checks entering/exiting on my EU passport.
I do not see how these rules would be any different for a second citizen of a non-EU country but, as stated, it may cause delays when entering.
The laws I have already stated, and part 1 of the UK Immigration Rules, do have the effect that a British citizen is required to use their British passport (or a certificate of the right of abode) to enter the UK.
Requirement for a person not requiring leave to enter the United Kingdom to prove that he has the right of abode
12. A person claiming to be a British citizen must prove that he has the right of abode in the United Kingdom by producing either:
(i) a United Kingdom passport describing him as a British citizen or as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies having the right of abode in the United Kingdom; or
(ii) a certificate of entitlement duly issued by or on behalf of the Government of the United Kingdom certifying that he has the right of abode.
A British citizen does not require (and cannot be granted) leave to enter (see section 8), so the above must apply to them.
The one possible loophole would be a dual British-Irish citizen who can show their "right to enter or remain" under section 3ZA of the Immigration Act by producing, for example, an Irish passport.
I have not at any stage attempted to say that these laws are routinely enforced and I am aware that actual practice at the border varies, but the UK Border Force could decide to enforce this in the future. This is the last I will say on the matter as it's going off-topic.
The only thing that could be done is levying a fine or getting a speech that you must not do it again (this is what's done in the US) you can't deny entry to a British citizen in any case.
If you have enough proof of your citizenship, you will be admitted at any rate though very delayed for sure if you don't have a passport or your passport is not a visa-free passport.
The situation r/e Spain/Gibraltar drags on. Looks like the only option is for Gib to join Schengen, which ultimately cuts them off from the UK as UK's would need the full Schengen protocol to enter *our* land such as EES, ETIAS and 90-day rule.
If Gibraltar won't accept that, then the only other option is a "hard" border between Gib and Spain, meaning Gibraltarians are subject to the above getting into Spain.
My suggestion is to keep the airport protocols as they are and filter UK's from everyone else, and the others face the same protocols as entering the UK but we would simply show our passport. That means the Spain/Gib border would have two lanes, one for Gib/Spanish residents (who can prove residency) and allow them unhindered passage both ways, and everyone else including UK's having to go through Schengen protocols to cross into Spain.
However the ointment in the fly is if a plane is diverted to Malaga, a system would have to be in place where pax could alight directly on to a "sterile" coach without going through EU passport and be driven, without stopping, through Spain and processed when arriving at Gibraltar Airport. That would probably require a Spanish official on the coach. Very unlikely to happen - so if you intend to go to Gib with just your passport then there will be wueues to process you at Malaga in that situation.
However the ointment in the fly is if a plane is diverted to Malaga, a system would have to be in place where pax could alight directly on to a "sterile" coach without going through EU passport and be driven, without stopping, through Spain and processed when arriving at Gibraltar Airport. That would probably require a Spanish official on the coach. Very unlikely to happen - so if you intend to go to Gib with just your passport then there will be wueues to process you at Malaga in that situation.
This was a problematic situation even before Brexit, because the UK has always had a separate visa system. Someone who needs a Schengen visa will not be admitted in the event of a diversion to Spain and has to return to the UK.
Due to bad weather in Gibraltar, some flights were diverted to Malaga and non-UK players were hit hard as they did not have the paperwork to be there.
They were left on the plane and forced to fly back to the UK, missing out on their first round matches.
A WST statement read: ‘Unfortunately due to bad weather in Gibraltar, certain flights from the UK have been diverted to Malaga.
‘Players travelling on non-British passports and without a Schengen Visa do not meet the Spanish visa entry requirements and therefore have had to fly back to the UK and some will not be able to compete in this week’s BetVictor Gibraltar Open.
This was a problematic situation even before Brexit, because the UK has always had a separate visa system. Someone who needs a Schengen visa will not be admitted in the event of a diversion to Spain and has to return to the UK.
Brexit should have been declared null and void in order to protect Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement, and Gibraltar. Are we really gonna have the situation where in future Brits without Schengen entry rights can't travel between the UK and it's own territory?
Brexit should have been declared null and void in order to protect Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement, and Gibraltar. Are we really gonna have the situation where in future Brits without Schengen entry rights can't travel between the UK and it's own territory?
I think we're just going to have to go for a hard border with Spain and subsidise lifeline links with the UK (and maybe Morocco) for Gibraltar to make it through. It probably wasn't the best choice, but it's too far gone to change.
Are we really gonna have the situation where in future Brits without Schengen entry rights can't travel between the UK and it's own territory?
Where's the Sovereignty there?
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