Why is this ticket not valid on the 1040 Avanti

[yorkie]

No, as it is in the railcard T&Cs.

If this was to be tested in court, it may not go the way the rail industry wants it to...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2024 ==

13.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel say:

If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
13.1.1 any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;
13.1.2 by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;
13.1.3 any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’.

If not valid on Avanti should that not be stated on the face of the ticket?

I agree. However train companies like to pick and choose what rules apply to them, and argue that small print outweighs key terms.

I'd love to see this tested in court; I would be hopeful that a good solicitor could defeat Avanti's argument.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which specific permitted route in the Routeing Guide for this flow do you allege would not be allowed “in practice”?

Any direct travel on Avanti, given the definition of any permitted from National Rail Enquiries is thus:

Your ticket may show a route or train company that you must use for your journey. If not, you are allowed to use any permitted route for the journey you are making. Permitted routes cover all reasonable routes available for making your journey, including direct services and suitable connecting services.

Clearly this Any Permitted ticket is not, in practice, an Any Permitted ticket. The routeing guide routes are not the only determinant of whether a route is permitted. All direct trains are de facto permitted, but those Avanti ones are not.

 

[furlong]

We have to get back to a situation where the industry takes responsibility for its own mistakes, irrespective of the rail companies involved.

Avanti should have understood this situation as a rail industry error and accepted it for travel, taking the matter up with the company responsible later.

Is the 0930 restriction an example of something the owner of a Gold Card should know, and the Avanti restriction something they have to be advised on the ticket?

Both should be referenced on the face of tickets when relevant.
For a long time, the industry has included text on tickets warning you that you need to check. E.g. "Valid as advertised" or "See restrictions".
We do seem to have a problem, now that URLs are printed on tickets to explain the restrictions, that the information provided there also fails to take railcards into account. This is easily rectified by adding (correct and detailed) railcard information to all the pages.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2024 ==

Any direct travel on Avanti, given the definition of any permitted from National Rail Enquiries is thus:

Your ticket may show a route or train company that you must use for your journey. If not, you are allowed to use any permitted route for the journey you are making. Permitted routes cover all reasonable routes available for making your journey, including direct services and suitable connecting services.

Clearly this Any Permitted ticket is not, in practice, an Any Permitted ticket. The routeing guide routes are not the only determinant of whether a route is permitted. All direct trains are de facto permitted, but those Avanti ones are not.

That's 13.1.1, that there's no need to refer to the Routeing Guide when making this journey.

13.The Routes You May Use
13.1Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes. If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
13.1.1 any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;

 

[Starmill]

NRCoT 2.3 states:

It would appear either (i) the obligitary information was not made available when purchasing the ticket at Penge East or (ii) the staff there did meet their obligations under the NRCoT but the passenger either ignored or did not fully understand the information.

Don't worry, I'm sure a certain long-standing forum member who likes to argue that the phrase "made available" includes being published online anywhere (even if they were "made available" in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory, with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard'!) will be along presently to make this point!

Needless to say I think this frequently-repeated opinion is about as respectable as the opinion that the contents of the customer charter isn't capable of being interpreted as part of the consumer contract.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2024 ==

I think there is some overrun with the "not valid before 10am" cases. In those cases,

- The ticket clearly says Anytime, yet was time restricted
- and the company did not honour its contractual obligation to allow the customer to pay the excess

I think in this case, spelling out every single restriction applying to the ticket the OP's friend bought would be completely unrealistic. Nonetheless, it is bizarre that the ticket claims to be valid via any permitted route, when clearly in practice it is not.

I do have to question if there is, in fact, doubt about the meaning of the terms.

Now of course I personally haven't really thought about there being any doubt about the terms which explain the railcard minimum fare or the operator restrictions in the past as there has been a conventional understanding of what they mean, albeit they're very very poorly drafted.

However some very convincing alternative interpretations have been put forward. There are at least three competing interpretations of the minimum fare rule now all of which are conclusions a reasonable person could arrive at when they view the NRCoT and relevant discount conditions in the round.

As a result if there really is doubt about the meaning of the terms the consumer is entitled to invoke Section 69.

It's not something I will be doing for the sake of the sums involved but if a consumer did I would find it hard to argue with them.

 

[etr221]

It was expanded in 2015. The current map can be viewed on this page on the National Rail site.

The page linked to - the Railcards info page for Annual Gold Card makes no mention of there being any restriction over Train Operator in the main rubric, and on the map there is only a reference to "Participating Train Companies". Only if you click the FAQ for 'any restrictions', and read to the bottom, do you get anything to say 'Not on Avanti' (or LNER). Looking at the AGC Ts&Cs, there is no mention of Avanti and LNER - the nearest you get is that there are non-participating companies on which discounted tickets are not valid (even if the AGC itself is). And as for the statement that the OP's ticket was not valid on XC north of Banbury, as XC is a participating company, and their route on to Birmingham is marked on the map (just not as an XC line), it is at least arguable that it is valid. But the bottom line to the argument is that it's not valid because it isn't stated that it is, once you have carefully read the small print, to understand what it does say.

 

[TUC]

Some of this discussion appears to lack an understanding of the distinction between a ticket's validity and a railcard's validity.

 

[RJ]

Some of this discussion appears to lack an understanding of the distinction between a ticket's validity and a railcard's validity.

I think it’s quite deliberate and the protest is against the Gold Card discount not being accepted by all TOCs. There is the option of not using the discount if the terms don’t work with the intended journey.

In the meantime, the ticket being endorsed with the Gold Card discount is all that’s needed on the ticket to indicate that it’s bound by the terms of that discount. If anyone is unsure what journeys it can be used for then they should certainly ask staff to look into it for them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some of this discussion appears to lack an understanding of the distinction between a ticket's validity and a railcard's validity.

What is the difference? Was the ticket valid on Avanti, in your view?

 

[redreni]

Some of this discussion appears to lack an understanding of the distinction between a ticket's validity and a railcard's validity.

I doubt anyone posting here hasn't grasped that.

What is in doubt is whether the Railcard restrictions are enforceable if the ticket is sold without telling the customer about them.

 

[transportphoto]

This may seem very naive. When purchasing an annual season ticket (which qualifies as a Gold Card) are the benefits, and restrictions of those benefits, explained fully? Is there any supporting literature which explains the intricacies?

 

[JonathanH]

This may seem very naive. When purchasing an annual season ticket (which qualifies as a Gold Card) are the benefits, and restrictions of those benefits, explained fully? Is there any supporting literature which explains the intricacies?

They are stated on the websites of the Train Operating Companies. For example https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/season-tickets/annual-train-tickets

When you buy an Annual Season ticket or Annual Travelcard, you’ll automatically get a free Annual Gold Card if your season ticket is issued on smartcard or Oyster card. With this card, you can enjoy discounts on travel within the Gold Card area from 9:30 am on weekdays and anytime on weekends and public holidays. Read the  Annual Gold Card terms and conditions.

The terms and conditions are linked at the end of the quoted piece and available further down that page.

Annual Gold Card terms and conditions

Conditions of issue and use of the Annual Gold Card and reduced priced tickets ('discounted tickets') bought with an Annual Gold Card.

Reference to an ‘Annual Gold Card’ means an Annual Gold Card Season ticket, Annual Gold Travelcard or Gold Record Card (issued when you have your Annual Season ticket or Annual Travelcard issued on an Oyster card or Smartcard).

Train Companies enter the contract with You for the issue and use of the Annual Gold Card. Reference to a 'Train Company', or the 'Train Companies' means those Train Companies which, pursuant to a franchise agreement, operate Passenger Rail Services and participate in the Annual Gold Card discount scheme. References to ‘You’ and ‘Your’ mean the named Annual Gold Card holder.

1. The Annual Gold Card and tickets bought with it are not transferable and must not be given, loaned or resold to anyone else. Only You can use the Annual Gold Card.

2. Annual Gold Card discounted tickets are valid for travel in the Annual Gold Card area only.

3. Annual Gold Card discounted tickets are not valid for travel from 04:30 to 09:29 Monday to Friday, except on Public Holidays.

4. All child fares are subject to a minimum £1 fare. Travelcard minimum fares also apply, see nationalrail.co.uk/goldcard for details. Please note, minimum fares are subject to change during the validity of Your Annual Gold Card.

5. The maximum group size is 4 adults (aged 16 years and over) and 4 children (aged 5-15 years).

6. Tickets for Your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets You must show Your Annual Gold Card and, where applicable, photocard.

7. If the journey You are making is covered by Your Annual Season ticket You do not need to buy yourself a ticket. However, if You are purchasing discounted Off-peak Day Travelcards for accompanying adults or children and You intend to travel in a London Fare Zone not covered by Your Annual Season ticket, You must also purchase a discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcard Zones 1-6 for yourself.

8. You must carry Your Annual Gold Card and, where applicable, photocard with You on the journey and when asked by rail staff You must show a valid ticket and valid Annual Gold Card. If You fail to do so, You and each member of Your group will be required to pay the full price Standard or First Class Single fare for Your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting Your journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare.

This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which You began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and there was no working ticket machine from which You could buy discounted tickets, or You have a disability which prevented You accessing ticket retailing facilities. In these cases You will be able to use Your Annual Gold Card to buy discounted tickets on the train or at Your destination.

9. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of Your discounted ticket and the full price Standard or First Class fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if:
a) You travel beyond the station for which Your ticket is issued;
b) You travel to a destination beyond the Annual Gold Card area, without having first obtained the correct ticket for Your journey;
c) You travel on a route for which a higher fare applies or at a time when discounted tickets are not valid.

10. Additional accompanying passengers for whom discounted tickets are purchased must travel with You throughout the journey.

11. Even if Your Annual Season ticket is valid for travel on any train company service, Annual Gold Card discounted tickets can only be used for travel on participating Train Company services in the Annual Gold Card scheme area – see the Annual Gold Card area map for the current participating Train Companies and scheme area.

12. You can buy 1 discounted 1-year national or Network Railcard for £10, subject to the relevant eligibility criteria, during the validity of Your Annual Gold Card, for yourself or someone else.

13. The Annual Gold Card and all tickets issued to the holder are issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the conditions listed on the National Rail website (and, where appropriate, the Conditions of Carriage of any other operators on whose services the ticket is valid).

14. The Annual Gold Card will not be valid if it is damaged. In the event that an Annual Gold Card is damaged, lost or stolen, please refer to the terms and conditions of the Annual Season ticket purchased on the National Rail website.

15. The Annual Gold Card does not become Your property and if requested must be handed in to a representative of any Train Company.

16. The right is reserved to revise these conditions, availability of the tickets and train companies included in the Annual Gold Card scheme – see nationalrail.co.uk/goldcard for current conditions, discounts and participating Train Companies. The Train Companies will endeavour to give adequate notice of any changes before they are due to come into effect.

Fraudulent use of Annual Gold Cards and Annual Gold Card discounted tickets may lead to a criminal prosecution.

Tickets you CANNOT get Annual Gold Card discounts on include:
● Season tickets, including Travelcard Season tickets
● Eurostar tickets
● Tickets for special excursions or charter trains and some coach/bus links, including Railair services
● Most London Underground and Docklands Light Railway tickets (unless using Oyster pay as you go)
● Some Train Company and Community Rail Partnership specific tickets

I haven't purchased an annual season ticket for 13 years, but I am sure that you used to have to sign a form to buy one which included accepting the terms and conditions, including the Gold Card.

11 is the condition pertinent to this thread, and relies on access to the Gold Card map.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This may seem very naive. When purchasing an annual season ticket (which qualifies as a Gold Card) are the benefits, and restrictions of those benefits, explained fully? Is there any supporting literature which explains the intricacies?

No, and yes- if you go looking for it.

The info on the Gold Card isn’t particularly clear and nor is it particularly easy to find.

Some of this discussion appears to lack an understanding of the distinction between a ticket's validity and a railcard's validity.

I think most people on this forum are fully aware of the distinction.

The issue is that this distinction is not well communicated to the general public. The fact the thread was even started in the first place shows that even people with understanding of the railway are confused.

It’s all well and good to say “you should check the T&Cs” but if you hold a ticket that says “anytime” and “any permitted” then why shouldn’t the passenger be able to rely on that?

With the way ticketing has changed there’s no reason why the ticket can’t say SUBJECT TO RAILCARD RESTRICTIONS on it, it could even be in the space where the URL for the time restriction on off peak tickets is printed.

 

[sprunt]

If anyone is unsure what journeys it can be used for then they should certainly ask staff to look into it for them.

12.1 clearly puts the onus on the ticket seller to provide information on any such restrictions, with no requirement on the passenger to seek the information out.

 

[crablab]

I find it slightly astonishing that there's a (albeit minority) view that this is somehow the passenger's fault.

If I go onto Trainsplit and plan a similar journey, it correctly will not sell a Gold Card deducted ticket against the Avanti service. The distinction between a WMT only ticket and the Any Permitted is pretty clear when you compare the prices, and the ticket summary.

(I would say, as feedback, that it isn't particularly clear on Trainsplit why the Gold Card discount isn't being added to the Any Permitted; the discount being applied to some rather than all looks like a bug or oversight).

So the passenger would have been better off booking this journey online, against an itinerary, where they would have been offered the full information as to the validity of the discount.

Why bother to have ticket offices if they can't provide that information? I thought dealing with complex fares was a key part of the argument for keeping them...

The ticket office messed up here and sold the passenger an inappropriate and confusing ticket. It's mind boggling that some expect the passenger to know the railways rules better than the ticket office apparently did!

 

[Cantab26]

The ticket office messed up here and sold the passenger an inappropriate and confusing ticket.

Which fare should the ticket office have sold in your view?

 

[RJ]

I find it slightly astonishing that there's a (albeit minority) view that this is somehow the passenger's fault.

If I go onto Trainsplit and plan a similar journey, it correctly will not sell a Gold Card deducted ticket against the Avanti service. The distinction between a WMT only ticket and the Any Permitted is pretty clear when you compare the prices, and the ticket summary.

(I would say, as feedback, that it isn't particularly clear on Trainsplit why the Gold Card discount isn't being added to the Any Permitted; the discount being applied to some rather than all looks like a bug or oversight).

So the passenger would have been better off booking this journey online, against an itinerary, where they would have been offered the full information as to the validity of the discount.

Why bother to have ticket offices if they can't provide that information? I thought dealing with complex fares was a key part of the argument for keeping them...

The ticket office messed up here and sold the passenger an inappropriate and confusing ticket. It's mind boggling that some expect the passenger to know the railways rules better than the ticket office apparently did!

What was the exact nature of the conversation that was had at the ticket office? The customer might’ve requested that ticket and not specified what service they would be taking. The Any Permitted fare is not for exclusive use on Avanti services and could still be used on other TOCs. It is poor value for money when used with a Gold Card, but it’s likely a ticket that matches what the customer asked for.

It’s not reasonable to expect ticket office clerks to reel off the full set of railcard restrictions as a matter of course whenever someone buys a ticket. The default assumption is that the passenger understands how the discount can be used, unless there’s an obvious mistake being made, like trying to travel at 8am on a working day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which fare should the ticket office have sold in your view?

If a Gold Card was proffered for a walk-up ticket on the WCML, almost certainly advising the passenger that they would be better off choosing ahead whether to use Chiltern or WMT and buying the relevant dedicated ticket is the best customer service approach to avoid the passenger paying for flexibility they in effect can't use.

Ticket offices are valueless if they aren't offering professional knowledge and advice. Indeed, had the poster tried to purchase on much-maligned Trainline it wouldn't have sold them an itinerary on Avanti with that ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2024 ==

It’s not reasonable to expect ticket office clerks to reel off the full set of railcard restrictions as a matter of course whenever someone buys a ticket.

I think it is totally reasonable for a ticket office to tell someone "You know you won't be able to use that before 10am, right?" or "You know you won't be able to use that on Avanti, there are cheaper options or I can sell you an undiscounted ticket?" where there's a relevant restriction, yes.

What is the point of a booking office if it doesn't offer knowledgeable, professional advice? In this case, online purchase or a planner based TVM would have correctly informed the passenger.

 

[RJ]

12.1 clearly puts the onus on the ticket seller to provide information on any such restrictions, with no requirement on the passenger to seek the information out.

If the customer is requesting a ticket with a discount, the default assumption is they understand how that discount can be used, unless there’s a good reason to suspect otherwise.

In the real world, not every ticket office clerk is going to have an intimate enough knowledge of restrictions on distant parts of the network to advise on potential issues. If the customer tried to buy the same ticket at Euston, the sale would have been rejected, as the staff there would likely know more about ticketing arrangements on their line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the real world, not every ticket office clerk is going to have an intimate enough knowledge of restrictions on distant parts of the network to advise on potential issues.

If a booking office clerk doesn't know the restrictions, they've got a computer in front of them in which they can input a journey plan to establish what they are. Failure to do so is just laziness. But unfortunately I've experienced quite a lot of lazy* booking office staff in my time, though more often it's refusing things that are valid and refusing to check when asked to do so than the other way round.

In any case, "Gold Card not valid on Avanti or LNER" is hardly difficult to remember, I knew that and I've never had one.

* "Yer'll av'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat" being the usual classic, when Merseyrail booking offices have been able to issue anything ever since APTIS came in.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I somehow doubt that the GBR world will change the situation described here.
It's similar to a number of fares which amount to a "not intercity" restriction.
I'm pretty sure BR had such fares (essentially NSE/Network Area limited).
There will always be fare boundaries of some sort.

 

[RJ]

If a Gold Card was proffered for a walk-up ticket on the WCML, almost certainly advising the passenger that they would be better off choosing ahead whether to use Chiltern or WMT and buying the relevant dedicated ticket is the best customer service approach to avoid the passenger paying for flexibility they in effect can't use.

Ticket offices are valueless if they aren't offering professional knowledge and advice. Indeed, had the poster tried to purchase on much-maligned Trainline it wouldn't have sold them an itinerary on Avanti with that ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2024 ==



I think it is totally reasonable for a ticket office to tell someone "You know you won't be able to use that before 10am, right?" or "You know you won't be able to use that on Avanti, there are cheaper options or I can sell you an undiscounted ticket?" where there's a relevant restriction, yes.

What is the point of a booking office if it doesn't offer knowledgeable, professional advice? In this case, online purchase or a planner based TVM would have correctly informed the passenger.

I wouldn’t overegg the benefits of online and TVM sales. A significant proportion of time in the ticket office is spent correcting errors people have made when booking tickets online, or correcting mistakes made at the TVMs, or printing TODs because people choose to ignore the instructions for collecting tickets.

If a booking office clerk doesn't know the restrictions, they've got a computer in front of them in which they can input a journey plan to establish what they are. Failure to do so is just laziness. But unfortunately I've experienced quite a lot of lazy booking office staff in my time, though more often it's refusing things that are valid and refusing to check when asked to do so than the other way round.

In any case, "Gold Card not valid on Avanti or LNER" is hardly difficult to remember, I knew that and I've never had one.

Yeah, that’s typically only done if passengers requests information on the journey and there are good reasons for that which don’t include laziness. Sometimes the forced offer of “help” without being asked causes more problems than it solves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, that’s typically only done if passengers requests information on the journey and there are good reasons for that which don’t include laziness. Sometimes the forced offer of “help” without being asked causes more problems than it solves.

I'd consider correctly advising a passenger who may have made a mistake, even if they asked for something specific, is a key part of the role of the sort of high quality, professional, knowledgeable advice booking office staff should be offering.

Just having a person in a shed doing what a TVM can is a waste of money.

It may not to be fair be laziness, it may be that the training is lacking - but it isn't really good enough. But I would absolutely expect a member of booking office staff to know all the Railcard rules by rote or to look them up each time if they don't (and so learn them very quickly) - there aren't that many of them!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2024 ==

Sometimes the forced offer of “help” without being asked causes more problems than it solves.

I've come across that, but only when the advice is incorrect or the wrong questions are asked.

 

[crablab]

But I would absolutely expect a member of booking office staff to know all the Railcard rules by rote or to look them up each time if they don't (and so learn them very quickly) - there aren't that many of them!

In the real world, not every ticket office clerk is going to have an intimate enough knowledge of restrictions on distant parts of the network to advise on potential issues.

And by extension, if we're saying that the ticket office staff can't be expected to know all these rules because they are far too numerous and complex, then we really can't possibly expect passengers to either.

It seems perverse that passengers need to have greater knowledge of the railway rules than railway staff themselves.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2024 ==

Which fare should the ticket office have sold in your view?

I concurr with @Bletchleyite

 

[JonathanH]

It seems perverse that passengers need to have greater knowledge of the railway rules than railway staff themselves.

They don't. They need to have knowledge of the terms and conditions of the limited number of products they have bought, not the wider range. It really isn't that difficult.

 

[redreni]

They don't. They need to have knowledge of the terms and conditions of the limited number of products they have bought, not the wider range. It really isn't that difficult.

In fairness I've had that conversation with railway staff before. "I don't come to your workplace and tell you your job. I've been doing this for 20 years. How much training on ticketing have you had?" all while I'm not claiming to know more than them about ticketing generally, I'm merely saying that I have checked and I do happen to know that the tickets I'm using at the moment are valid for the particular journey I'm making - a matter that I've looked into and they haven't.

I don't think it works the other way around, though. At least, it shouldn't. At the very least, failure by the passenger to remember a rule that the trained ticket office clerk who sold them their ticket obviously didn't remember either ought to be dealt with sympathetically by, in this case, explaining why the ticket can't be used on Avanti and advising the passenger of their options.

 

[Haywain]

by, in this case, explaining why the ticket can't be used on Avanti and advising the passenger of their options.

I don't think anyone has argued against that.

 

[Cantab26]

If a Gold Card was proffered for a walk-up ticket on the WCML, almost certainly advising the passenger that they would be better off choosing ahead whether to use Chiltern or WMT and buying the relevant dedicated ticket is the best customer service approach to avoid the passenger paying for flexibility they in effect can't use.

I concurr with @Bletchleyite

The passenger does not wish to be limited to WMT and doesn’t want to travel via High Wycombe on both legs.

Which fare should the ticket office sell?

 

[redreni]

The passenger does not wish to be limited to WMT and doesn’t want to travel via High Wycombe on both legs.

Which fare should the ticket office sell?

Back in the real world, however, the passenger arrived at Euston unaware that the ticket wouldn't be valid on Avanti.

The scenario where the passenger is aware of all the restrictions and still wishes to buy this ticket so they can make a round trip via the WCML (LNWR) in one direction and via Banbury and High Wycombe or Reading in the other is all well and good, but it didn't happen in this case. If it were to happen, that would be fine and there wouldn't be a thread about it. Such a passenger would not, I think, be in the least bit surprised or upset if the ticket office clerk pointed out to them that they couldn't use the Any Permitted ticket on Avanti because of the Gold Card discount and queried what route they intended to take.

 

[Haywain]

the passenger arrived at Euston unaware that the ticket wouldn't be valid on Avanti.

So, it's a fair bet that they didn't want to be restricted to Avanti.

 

[35B]

If a booking office clerk doesn't know the restrictions, they've got a computer in front of them in which they can input a journey plan to establish what they are. Failure to do so is just laziness. But unfortunately I've experienced quite a lot of lazy* booking office staff in my time, though more often it's refusing things that are valid and refusing to check when asked to do so than the other way round.

In any case, "Gold Card not valid on Avanti or LNER" is hardly difficult to remember, I knew that and I've never had one.

* "Yer'll av'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat" being the usual classic, when Merseyrail booking offices have been able to issue anything ever since APTIS came in.

Why would a booking clerk in SE London be triggered to explore that particular gap? As others have said, we don't know specifically what was asked for, and therefore what may have triggered a question about validity beyond their normal patch.

This does come back to the industry recognising that the fares system is complex, and that just relying on customers knowing T&Cs is a likely trigger for conflict. That requires both some reflection on the underlying restrictions, and also how railcard restrictions in particular are then communicated to customers at the point of purchase.