Long Buckby to Hexham - Off Peak Return

[Joey Beauchamp]

I'm used to anomalies in ticket prices but this one is so weird, I'd like to ask the board what the reason might be and if there are any solutions to my problem.

I'm travelling from Long Buckby to Hexham on Friday 25th October and returning Sunday 27th October. Because I have my 6 year old with me, I have decided to by a flexible fare so that we can choose between East and West coast on the day, to hopefully avoid cancellations or delays.

An off peak return from Long Buckby to Hexham (I'll stick to adult non-railcard discounted prices to keep it simple) costs £147.10. However, despite the 09.22 from Long Buckby definitely counting as off-peak when buying a return to Rugby, the ticket doesn't seem to be valid on this train. I really want to catch the 09.22 because of the connection to the Crosscountry at Tamworth (next one doesn't stop there).

So I looked at an off peak return from Rugby to Hexham as it would leave Rugby after 09.30. The price is £162! Does anyone know why the price shoots up moving 10 miles further North, on the same route? I'm guessing one is set by LNWR and one by Avanti, but it still seems nonsensical as the route via Newcastle uses no Avanti trains!

I think I've exhausted all possibilities but if anyone has an idea of how to keep the cost down while catching the 09.22 and not sticking to a specific time, I'm all ears!

 

[jfollows]

There is no such thing as an off-peak train!
An off-peak return Long Buckby-Hexham is not valid before 09:30, restriction code 2V.
Both fares are set by Cross Country.
See https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=LBK&dest=HEX&period=20240928 for example.

 

[mangyiscute]

Someone who understands the fare system better than me can comment, but I think you'd be allowed to buy a Long Buckby to Hexham return not valid on the 09:22, and then buy a Long Buckby to Rugby single that is valid on the 09:22 and use that ticket to get to Rugby, and then only start "using" the main ticket from Rugby so you are only using it after half 9 (as its restrictions state) and effectively starting your journey short (which is valid on this ticket).

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

There is no such thing as an off-peak train!
An off-peak return Long Buckby-Hexham is not valid before 09:30, restriction code 2V.
Both fares are set by Cross Country.
See https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=LBK&dest=HEX&period=20240928 for example.

Well, well, well. The fare from Rugby says "Any Permitted". So does that mean the return from Rugby is valid via London, hence why it's more expensive?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2024 ==

Someone who understands the fare system better than me can comment, but I think you'd be allowed to buy a Long Buckby to Hexham return not valid on the 09:22, and then buy a Long Buckby to Rugby single that is valid on the 09:22 and use that ticket to get to Rugby, and then only start "using" the main ticket from Rugby so you are only using it after half 9 (as its restrictions state) and effectively starting your journey short (which is valid on this ticket).

That would be ideal, if permitted. Starting short (and rangers / rovers) don't pop up on Train Split, which makes it more difficult to find the cheapest fares.

 

[jfollows]

Well, well, well. The fare from Rugby says "Any Permitted". So does that mean the return from Rugby is valid via London, hence why it's more expensive?

No, Rugby-Hexham is valid via Carlisle or Newcastle but neither of these routes is valid via London.

 

[Watershed]

An off peak return from Long Buckby to Hexham (I'll stick to adult non-railcard discounted prices to keep it simple) costs £147.10. However, despite the 09.22 from Long Buckby definitely counting as off-peak when buying a return to Rugby, the ticket doesn't seem to be valid on this train. I really want to catch the 09.22 because of the connection to the Crosscountry at Tamworth (next one doesn't stop there).

An Off-Peak Return from Long Buckby to Hexham isn't valid on the 09:22 because it has restriction code 2V, which means you can't travel before 09:30.

An Off-Peak Day Return from Long Buckby to Rugby is valid on the 09:22 because it has restriction code JD, which means you can't travel before 09:15.

Given the circumstances, it's obviously silly that you can't take the 09:22 on an Off-Peak ticket to Hexham, despite paying much more. In reality I suspect that, in the highly unlikely event of a ticket check between Long Buckby and Rugby, they would just accept your ticket anyway, on the basis that a local Off-Peak ticket would be valid as you say.

However, if you want to properly abide by the rules then you need to buy a separate ticket to Rugby - which can, of course, be an Off-Peak ticket! Only in the rail industry does buying one Off-Peak ticket to get around the restrictions on another Off-Peak ticket make any sense...

So I looked at an off peak return from Rugby to Hexham as it would leave Rugby after 09.30. The price is £162! Does anyone know why the price shoots up moving 10 miles further North, on the same route? I'm guessing one is set by LNWR and one by Avanti, but it still seems nonsensical as the route via Newcastle uses no Avanti trains!

Both the fares from Long Buckby and Rugby are set by CrossCountry, probably on the basis you are assumed to travel via Newcastle.

I can't explain why the fare from Rugby is more expensive. At privatisation (1996), the fares were either the same or marginally more from Long Buckby (depending on the ticket type). But by 2014 (the furthest back I can easily look up 'modern era' fares) those from Rugby were higher. So at some point in those intervening years, CrossCountry must perhaps have increased the Rugby fares more quickly, or applied a one-off increase.

Avanti set the fares from Long Buckby/Rugby to Carlisle and stations as far east as Brampton. If you're happy to tie yourself to travelling via Carlisle, this would save quite a bit of money - with the added advantage that the Avanti Off-Peak Return routed "via Long Buckby" (which makes no sense if you're starting in Long Buckby, I know!) is effectively valid at any time of day as it has time restriction 2T. 2T means it's only restricted between 02:30 and 04:15, during which time you won't find any trains running!

I think I've exhausted all possibilities but if anyone has an idea of how to keep the cost down while catching the 09.22 and not sticking to a specific time, I'm all ears!

@mangyiscute 's suggestion is probably what I would go for, if you want maximum flexibility whilst travelling on the 09:22.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An Off-Peak Return from Long Buckby to Hexham isn't valid on the 09:22 because it has restriction code 2V, which means you can't travel before 09:30.

An Off-Peak Day Return from Long Buckby to Rugby is valid on the 09:22 because it has restriction code JD, which means you can't travel before 09:15.

Given the circumstances, it's obviously silly that you can't take the 09:22 on an Off-Peak ticket to Hexham, despite paying much more. In reality I suspect that, in the highly unlikely event of a ticket check between Long Buckby and Rugby, they would just accept your ticket anyway, on the basis that a local Off-Peak ticket would be valid as you say.

However, if you want to properly abide by the rules then you need to buy a separate ticket to Rugby - which can, of course, be an Off-Peak ticket! Only in the rail industry does buying one Off-Peak ticket to get around the restrictions on another Off-Peak ticket make any sense...

Ironically it's because XC has actually simplified their Off Peak tickets (most if not all of them are valid from 0930, and they even had other TOCs put in their restriction codes in some cases "for journeys on XC see 2V"). Simplification obviously has downsides, and this is one case where it does.

WMT has not done this, and so there are lots of different ones.

 

[Watershed]

Well, well, well. The fare from Rugby says "Any Permitted". So does that mean the return from Rugby is valid via London, hence why it's more expensive?

No - it's an accident of history more than anything else. The fares from Long Buckby are part of the same cluster as fares from Northampton. From Northampton to Hexham I suppose it was seen as plausible that you might want to travel via London (indeed, at the time of privatisation there were Advance fares routed via London). To make clear that the Off-Peak fare didn't allow travel via London, it was routed "not via London".

From Rugby it was presumably seen as less plausible that you might want to travel via London (bearing in mind there that Intercity services from Rugby to London were slower and less frequent in the past). So the fares didn't have a specific route, which in the modern era meant they become "Any Permitted". That doesn't imply that travel is permitted via London though - you would need there to be a permitted route via London, which there isn't.

That would be ideal, if permitted. Starting short (and rangers / rovers) don't pop up on Train Split, which makes it more difficult to find the cheapest fares.

It would absolutely fine. There are no restrictions on starting short on a ticket with restriction code 2V, or indeed 2T.

 

[Haywain]

I think I've exhausted all possibilities but if anyone has an idea of how to keep the cost down while catching the 09.22 and not sticking to a specific time, I'm all ears!

The first thing is to get a Family & Friends Railcard.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

The first thing is to get a Family & Friends Railcard.

I've got one, I was just trying to keep the initial post as simple as possible.

Avanti set the fares from Long Buckby/Rugby to Carlisle and stations as far east as Brampton. If you're happy to tie yourself to travelling via Carlisle, this would save quite a bit of money

Unfortunately, it wouldn't save much at all, unless I purchase advance tickets for the Carlisle/Brampton to Hexham part (which I don't really want to). The reason being, that period returns don't exist, so would need to be two lots of singles.

 

[Watershed]

I've got one, I was just trying to keep the initial post as simple as possible.


Unfortunately, it wouldn't save much at all, unless I purchase advance tickets for the Carlisle/Brampton to Hexham part (which I don't really want to). The reason being, that period returns don't exist, so would need to be two lots of singles.

There is a period return from Carlisle to Hexham (admittedly not from Brampton and only 1tph stops there anyway), so splitting in Carlisle makes more sense. Advance tickets on that route are also readily available on the day, even just minutes before the train leaves. So you don't have to commit to a particular train until you are about to board it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a period return from Carlisle to Hexham (admittedly not from Brampton and only 1tph stops there anyway), so splitting in Carlisle makes more sense. Advance tickets on that route are also readily available on the day, even just minutes before the train leaves. So you don't have to commit to a particular train until you are about to board it.

There is a cut-off, I think a couple of minutes. I once tried to do this as the train was visible approaching the platform and it wouldn't sell despite already being in my basket, I had to select the train after and a walk-up fare instead.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

There is a period return from Carlisle to Hexham (admittedly not from Brampton and only 1tph stops there anyway), so splitting in Carlisle makes more sense. Advance tickets on that route are also readily available on the day, even just minutes before the train leaves. So you don't have to commit to a particular train until you are about to board it.

You're quite right, I'd missed that as it's a "short return" and I hadn't clocked what that actually means!

It saves a fiver (after railcard discount) but I reckon I'm better off paying the extra and keeping my options open. I'd be so gutted if the West Coast mainline got spangled on Sunday and I didn't have the option of going the other way.

 

[yorkie]

It saves a fiver (after railcard discount) but I reckon I'm better off paying the extra and keeping my options open. I'd be so gutted if the West Coast mainline got spangled on Sunday and I didn't have the option of going the other way.

If severe disruption occurs, ticket acceptance should be in place, so if you were restricted to the West Coast, you would be able to switch route.

However if it's just one train that is cancelled, then it would be a lot less likely; however if your intended train is cancelled and you choose not to travel, you can claim a full refund from the point of sale. You could then book a new ticket via the route of your choice.