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BR 1991 Sleeper Route

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03_179

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Hello all,

Previously you guys have been able to help on a couple of things from the early 1990s.

On 6th July 1991 the wife and I took the Sleeper from Inverness to London Euston.

I wrote down the 47641 took us from Inverness.
A Euston 86425 was on the front.

I have an old note that said the the 47s went to Glasgow Central (the note was written about a year later than the trip) which I don't think was right.

Anyone able to confirm the route the sleeper took?

I suspect that it would have been Inverness via Perth, Stirling, Cumbernauld, Whifflet (?), to Carstairs when the class 86 would have been attached.
Does this seem right ?

Thanks in advance,
 
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jfollows

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In September 1991, 1M16 20:10 SX & SUN Inverness to Euston went via Edinburgh, 01NU50 departure, and was electrically hauled from there. However the Edinburgh-Carstairs line was only electrified in 1991 so July could have been different, I only have the September working timetable.
N - not advertised
U - pick up only
 

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03_179

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In September 1991, 1M16 20:10 SX & SUN Inverness to Euston went via Edinburgh, 01NU50 departure, and was electrically hauled from there. However the Edinburgh-Carstairs line was only electrified in 1991 so July could have been different, I only have the September working timetable.
Thank you.
I thought it didn't seem right that 47s would head into to Glasgow Central ....
 

jfollows

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Edinburgh-Carstairs electrification was operational from 18 March 1991, according to http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm

So although I don’t have the exact timetable, there’s a good chance that July 1991 was similar to September 1991.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And let us know what anyone on WNXX says (https://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=39208) ….

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

6 July 1991 was a SATURDAY, it really helps if you say these things up-front.
https://www.branchline.uk/psul/1990-1.pdf says that the 19:05 SO Inverness-Euston used
Rutherglen East Junction – Coatbridge Junction [H6]
¶ ON SATURDAYS NIGHTS/SUNDAY MORNINGS FROM 6/7 OCTOBER 1990 UNTIL 6/7 JULY 1991:
2000 SO Euston – Inverness
1905 SO Inverness – Euston (from 19 May 1991)

Coatbridge Central – Garnqueen North Junction
Until 15 March 1991:
2110 SX, 2110 SUN Euston – Inverness
2025/2115 SX, 2025/2115 SUN Inverness – Euston
Diverted via Edinburgh from 18 March 1991 except for Saturday diversionary use From 18 March 1991 became diversionary route only
¶ ON SATURDAY NIGHTS/SUNDAY MORNINGS UNTIL 6/7 JULY 1991:
2000 Euston – Inverness
2110 Euston – Aberdeen (until 30 September 1990 and from 18/19 May 1991) 1900/1905/1940 Inverness – Euston
2155 Euston - Edinburgh (from 18/19 May 1991)

Cumbernauld – Greenhill Lower Junction
Until 15 March 1991:
2110 SX, 2110 SUN Euston – Inverness
2025/2115 SX, 2025/2115 SUN Inverness – Euston
Diverted via Edinburgh from 18 March 1991 except for Saturday diversionary use From 18 March 1991 became diversionary route only
¶ ON SATURDAY NIGHTS/SUNDAY MORNINGS UNTIL 6/7 JULY 1991:
2000 Euston – Inverness
2110 Euston – Aberdeen (until 30 September 1990 and from 18/19 May 1991) 1900/1905/1940 Inverness – Euston
2155 Euston - Edinburgh (from 18/19 May 1991)
¶ ON SUNDAYS 22 JULY UNTIL 30 SEPTEMBER 1990 AND FROM 19 MAY 1991: Trains between Glasgow Queen Street and Larbert or Falkirk until ca 1600
Only the first one of these applies to your train, I think.
If you went Coatbrige Junction to Rutherglen East Junction then you probably did end up reversing in Glasgow Central.
 
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03_179

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Edinburgh-Carstairs electrification was operational from 18 March 1991, according to http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm

So although I don’t have the exact timetable, there’s a good chance that July 1991 was similar to September 1991.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And let us know what anyone on WNXX says (https://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=39208) ….

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

6 July 1991 was a SATURDAY, it really helps if you say these things up-front.
https://www.branchline.uk/psul/1990-1.pdf says that the 19:05 SO Inverness-Euston used

Only the first one of these applies to your train, I think.
If you went Coatbrige Junction to Rutherglen East Junction then you probably did end up reversing in Glasgow Central.
Thanks I have seen this on here and on wnxx.
It's does seem the most likely then that we reversed at GLC.

Thanks to everyone that helped and track this down
 

jfollows

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Allwinter_Kit

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I have seen the old sleeper map from BR days (pre-being grouped to leave from Euston) and note that there is a portion of the sleeper that links Leeds to King's Cross (and, presumably, northbound too).

How did that work? Surely travel times can't have been long enough to merit an overnight service - did it just sit in Wakefield Westgate for 7 hours?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Interestingly, Edinburgh - Bristol is one where the current rail day journey time might not compete well with air, but an overnight journey might just swing it rather than an early morning flight....
 

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jfollows

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I have seen the old sleeper map from BR days (pre-being grouped to leave from Euston) and note that there is a portion of the sleeper that links Leeds to King's Cross (and, presumably, northbound too).

How did that work? Surely travel times can't have been long enough to merit an overnight service - did it just sit in Wakefield Westgate for 7 hours?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Interestingly, Edinburgh - Bristol is one where the current rail day journey time might not compete well with air, but an overnight journey might just swing it rather than an early morning flight....
In 1978-9, when I used it, it was
  1. 1D57 00:43 Leeds-Doncaster 01:20
  2. attach to 1A45 22:55 Newcastle-King’s Cross depart 01U42.5, arrive King’s Cross 04:19
  3. sleep in King’s Cross until whenever
The sleeper was shunted by an 08 at Doncaster I think - I slept through it!
In 1974 I think there was a Newcastle-Leeds-King’s Cross sleeper

EDIT In 1974 the up sleeper was 1A47, 22:20 Newcastle-King's Cross via Sunderland and Leeds, with the sleeper coaches available for boarding prior to the 02:15 departure time from Leeds, so will have been attached to 1A47 when it arrived. 06:10 arrival in King's Cross.
 

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30907

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I have seen the old sleeper map from BR days (pre-being grouped to leave from Euston) and note that there is a portion of the sleeper that links Leeds to King's Cross (and, presumably, northbound too).

How did that work? Surely travel times can't have been long enough to merit an overnight service - did it just sit in Wakefield Westgate for 7 hours?
In 1982 it left KGX at 0110 and reached Leeds at 0505 (and there was a Newcastle and Durham Coast sleeper even later at 0155).
Interestingly, Edinburgh - Bristol is one where the current rail day journey time might not compete well with air, but an overnight journey might just swing it rather than an early morning flight....
It survived (extended to Plymouth) a decade longer than most of the others, but it depended largely on Naval traffic Devonport-Rosyth which vanished :(
 

jfollows

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1982 the down working was 1L00 01:10 “Passenger and News” and the up working was 1D57 attaching to 1E35 20:25 Edinburgh-King’s Cross at Doncaster, 04:44 into King’s Cross. I think the down news traffic imbalanced the workings - no up news traffic.
 

JamieL

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Interestingly, Edinburgh - Bristol is one where the current rail day journey time might not compete well with air, but an overnight journey might just swing it rather than an early morning flight....
Yes to this service! Or even better Glasgow Bristol (via Edinburgh and Birmingham if you like). That would be amazing and really convenient. I regularly get the Highlander to London and then morning train to Bristol. But a direct sleeper would be amazing.

Realistically though I suppose their isn't the tourist traffic for such a route that would make it viable.
 

Magdalia

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I have seen the old sleeper map from BR days (pre-being grouped to leave from Euston) and note that there is a portion of the sleeper that links Leeds to King's Cross (and, presumably, northbound too).

How did that work? Surely travel times can't have been long enough to merit an overnight service - did it just sit in Wakefield Westgate for 7 hours?
The Leeds sleeper was originally a Midland train to/from St Pancras, it only ran to/from Kings Cross between 1969 and 1983.

1982 the down working was 1L00 01:10 “Passenger and News” and the up working was 1D57 attaching to 1E35 20:25 Edinburgh-King’s Cross at Doncaster, 04:44 into King’s Cross. I think the down news traffic imbalanced the workings - no up news traffic.
1L00 0110 Kings Cross-Leeds divided at Peterborough. The rear part was news only with all except the last van going forward to Grimsby.
 

WesternLancer

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Yes to this service! Or even better Glasgow Bristol (via Edinburgh and Birmingham if you like). That would be amazing and really convenient. I regularly get the Highlander to London and then morning train to Bristol. But a direct sleeper would be amazing.

Realistically though I suppose their isn't the tourist traffic for such a route that would make it viable.
I recall doing an overnight in a seated carriage on the sleeper , i assume, Bristol to Edinburgh in 1986 or 87.

Calm of the carriage was interrupted at New Street by a number of passengers ex the pubs who got off somewhere like Wolverhampton and then calm descended again in due course.

I assume the train was also the sleeper. Not sure when it arrived in Edinburgh but it was early. I pressed on to Aberdeen then Inverness on my Rover, then to Glasgow and onwards to Euston.
 

Taunton

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I have seen the old sleeper map from BR days (pre-being grouped to leave from Euston) and note that there is a portion of the sleeper that links Leeds to King's Cross (and, presumably, northbound too).

How did that work? Surely travel times can't have been long enough to merit an overnight service - did it just sit in Wakefield Westgate for 7 hours?
There was actually quite a market for such a sleeper service, and comparable ones from Liverpool and Manchester. There were no 0630 high speed services in those times, and the first morning express, take the diesel Manchester Pullman as an example, left at 0745, arrived St Pancras 1055, first arrival of the day from Manchester. You might just make an 1130 business meeting, anything starting earlier needed an overnight stay - or the sleeper. Or anyone not entitled to first class expenses plus the Pullman supplement.
 

norbitonflyer

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I have seen the old sleeper map from BR days (pre-being grouped to leave from Euston) and note that there is a portion of the sleeper that links Leeds to King's Cross (and, presumably, northbound too).

How did that work? Surely travel times can't have been long enough to merit an overnight service - did it just sit in Wakefield Westgate for 7 hours?
Not a portion off the Edinburgh, but a separate train - if I recall, correctly, a single sleeper carriage in a train made up primarily of newspaper vans. I caught it occasionally (using the seated accomodation). c1980 it left Kings Cross at 0005, and I would leave the train at Retford about 4am to make a connection for Lincoln (using the overnight Manchester - Grimsby via Lincoln newspaper train), so it probably reached Leeds at a fairly civilised hour.

By the time the train reached Retford it was quite a different beast, as many vans had been detached, and others added, en route.

At that time the Aberdeen sleeper was due off Kings Cross at 2359. On one memorable occasion (Sept 1980?) the two trains left simultanously, on adjacent tracks. I was, of course, next to the open window of the first door of the first carriage. One loco a few feet in front of me, the other alongside.

In Gasworks Tunnel.

Both locos were Deltics.

An aural experience I will never forget.
 

Shrop

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At that time the Aberdeen sleeper was due off Kings Cross at 2359. On one memorable occasion (Sept 1980?) the two trains left simultanously, on adjacent tracks. I was, of course, next to the open window of the first door of the first carriage. One loco a few feet in front of me, the other alongside.

In Gasworks Tunnel.

Both locos were Deltics.

An aural experience I will never forget.
That sounds like an experience that a good many people would pay handsomely for, even better that you were able to get yourself a window to appreciate it to the full! Today, open windows are obviously a thing of the past so that's gone, and then even if in some fantasy scenario you had two Deltics in that situation on two adjacent heritage trains, you'd have to be first to board the train, you'd have to glue yourself to the window until departure while letting others squeeze past in order not to lose your place, and then you'd be squashed and glared at for hogging it! :lol:. But great that you have this excellent memory!!!
 

Taunton

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Two Deltics accelerating together in Gasworks tunnel, with the window open ... regardless of the sound, however did you breathe? :)

Many of these overnight sleeper services were essentially van trains for newspapers/mail/parcels, with a few (sometimes very few) sleepers and coaches attached. One of the downsides for sleeper passengers was the several en-route remarshallings that took place as vehicles or whole sections were shunted as you went through the night - the Class 08 pushing a few vans onto the back, in the dark, could give a fairly good whack.

Although when the HSTs came along they did some impressive daily mileages, the Deltics were not far behind because they got used 24 hours a day, on both expresses and overnight services. Their limited fuel capacity meant they needed refuelling after each Anglo-Scottish trip, but Kings Cross was the only major point where they were trapped at the buffers before the stock departed; elsewhere they were readily detached, nipped around to the fuel point, and were back for the next leg. I think there were almost as many out on the line at 2am as there were at 2pm.
 

The exile

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I recall doing an overnight in a seated carriage on the sleeper , i assume, Bristol to Edinburgh in 1986 or 87.

Calm of the carriage was interrupted at New Street by a number of passengers ex the pubs who got off somewhere like Wolverhampton and then calm descended again in due course.

I assume the train was also the sleeper. Not sure when it arrived in Edinburgh but it was early. I pressed on to Aberdeen then Inverness on my Rover, then to Glasgow and onwards to Euston.
I had a memorable journey northbound (1987?) in the rearmost coach - which only fitted on the platform at Temple Meads, New Street and Waverley. Any intrepid passengers walking through the train were met by what appeared to be an OOU guards van as the passenger end of the BSO was behind the brake so I had the coach to myself for the entire journey. Lickey was very memorable - but was one of the problems. A train long enough to be liable required expensive banking - hence the rerouting of half the train to Poole just before the end, I believe.
 

williamn

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Yes to this service! Or even better Glasgow Bristol (via Edinburgh and Birmingham if you like). That would be amazing and really convenient. I regularly get the Highlander to London and then morning train to Bristol. But a direct sleeper would be amazing.

Realistically though I suppose their isn't the tourist traffic for such a route that would make it viable.
I heard the Bristol to Scotland sleeper was actually the most popular route pre privatisation. It didn't fit neatly into any franchise though so was scrapped...

I suspect even if such a route sold every bed and seat it would still make a loss.
 

WesternLancer

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I had a memorable journey northbound (1987?) in the rearmost coach - which only fitted on the platform at Temple Meads, New Street and Waverley. Any intrepid passengers walking through the train were met by what appeared to be an OOU guards van as the passenger end of the BSO was behind the brake so I had the coach to myself for the entire journey. Lickey was very memorable - but was one of the problems. A train long enough to be liable required expensive banking - hence the rerouting of half the train to Poole just before the end, I believe.
Thanks for posting those observations. Any idea what the timings were for the service in '87?
 

WesternLancer

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1985-86 timetable attached. I don’t have 1987’s timetable.
many thanks - that's OK

Makes sense that people from pubs got on at New St and travelled to Wolverhampton and Stafford. I expect I had to get out of the seated carriage at about or before 6am at Edinburgh. Still rather wish I'd enquired if there had been an empty sleeper berth I could have upgraded to, but being in my teens I probably wanted to save my cash!
 
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williamn

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1985-86 timetable attached. I don’t have 1987’s timetable.
Very interesting! When did they stop running Sleepers on a Saturday? It seems odd that the Caledonian Sleeper persists in this given how busy it is.
 

sh24

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Very interesting! When did they stop running Sleepers on a Saturday? It seems odd that the Caledonian Sleeper persists in this given how busy it is.

No business travel, much less leisure travel as in the middle of the weekend.
 

DarloRich

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I heard the Bristol to Scotland sleeper was actually the most popular route pre privatisation. It didn't fit neatly into any franchise though so was scrapped...
It was reliant on military traffic. A school friends father was a naval officer and used to travel that route quite often all paid for by the MoD. When the RN dockyard in Rosyth closed the passengers went with it. He used to let me have his old tickets and things as going on a sleeper paid for by warrant seemed very exciting!
 

ainsworth74

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Very interesting! When did they stop running Sleepers on a Saturday? It seems odd that the Caledonian Sleeper persists in this given how busy it is.
Fascinting stuff isn't the old sleeper network! It survived until fairly late as well. I did a long post a few years (quoted below) based on an May to October 1989 GBTT which illustrated quite how spread the network was even as late as that. Including internal Scottish sleeper services even! And it was very much still a seven day a week operation.

I suspect that the Saturday services were dumped in the mid-90s in the run up to privatisation as just how costly all these sleeper services were during the wider rationalisation of the network.

So as I'm sure most of us are aware there are still sleeper services in the UK. Three trains serving six destinations (the Night Riviera linking London and Penzance, the Lowland linking London to Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the Highland linking London to Fort William, Inverness and Aberdeen) are the remains of what was once a very extensive network of sleeper services crisscrossing the country. Now I had had in my head that by the end of the 80s and into the early 90s the pattern that we now have had basically been established and the only remaining significant service outside of that pattern was a Edinburgh to Plymouth cross-country sleeper which eventually got killed off at privatisation. However studying my May to October 1989 GB Timetable reveals that that image in my head was extremely inaccurate.

Take for instance departures from Euston (no Kings Cross sleepers by now, indeed there's a lovely note advising that there is now the "added convenience of leaving from just one station: Euston") on Sunday to Friday nights:
View attachment 92341
(Image shows nine departures from Euston between 2100 and 2359 serving range of destinations including three trains to Glasgow, two to Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinburgh and one each to Stranraer, Fort William, Carlisle, Manchester and Liverpool)

Needless to say the very early arrivals at somewhere like Carlisle or Liverpool have an accompanying note to indicate you can remain in berths until a slightly more civilised hour! In the reverse direction there are even two further services to Euston one from Holyhead (and independent train) and Barrow (which joins at Stafford with sleeper cars from Liverpool and seats from Manchester) that don't have sleepers to them from Euston meaning even more sleeper services located around Euston.

Then there's all the Saturday night sleepers to/from Euston to boot which is something that's long gone now with sleepers very much being a Sunday to Friday night operation these days:
View attachment 92342
(Image shows eight departures between 2000 and 2359 serving a range of destinations including two trains to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen and one train to Carlisle, Liverpool and Manchester)

As previous very early arrivals include provision to remain in berths until a more reasonable hour and in the reverse direction there are a similar number of services to Euston (including Holyhead but not Barrow). The 2205 from Euston taking over twelve hours to get Aberdeen/Inverness caused me to pause for a moment and looking at it's schedule it's allowed three hours and forty minutes between Preston and Carstairs compared to two and a half hours of it's weekday equivalent. Perhaps they're going via the Cumbrian Coast during this timetable? In any event Euston must have been a hive of activity for sleeper services seven days a week from around 2000 until close to midnight at this period!

I have to say that I found it remarkable that as late as 1989 there were still dedicated sleeper only train to Inverness, Aberdeen and Edinburgh with no portion working at all and indeed all of them saw more than one sleeper service per night (though the extra usually conveyed portions of one description or another). Stranraer still being a survivor was also quite eye opening!

Turning to our other remaining London terminus that saw sleepers then and continues to see them now (Paddington) the Night Riviera is there and happily running seven nights a week compared to the usual six nights that it does now. It also still drops off a portion in Plymouth meaning that passengers in 1989 get to remain with their berths until 0800 (rather than getting kicked out 0510ish) or can join their berths at 2200 (rather than having to loiter around until the train leaves Plymouth shortly before midnight)!

But of far more interest, at least to my sleeper starved eyes, are the other services which still exist as late as 1989 which do not serve London at all. The previously mentioned South West to Scotland sleeper remains a seven day a week operation at this time:

View attachment 92345
(Image shows Plymouth to Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper service including Saturday night only extension for service to start back from Penzance)

One of those services firmly in the "wouldn't it be nice if" category today! The Saturday night extension back from Penzance was interesting as I don't think I'd ever realised it had extended beyond Plymouth. The reverse direction is similar of course but the extension to Penzance is on the Friday night departures from Scotland so arriving on Saturday morning (which of course neatly puts the stock in the right place to go north again that evening!).

The eye may be drawn to the long wait at Birmingham New Street on every day except Saturday where it goes straight through with just a five minute station call. Well, that's to allow the for a portion to be joined from Poole:

View attachment 92346
(Image shows Poole to Birmingham New Street section of service)

Quite a remarkable service to think about and surely this portion must have died off before very much longer and indeed before the rest of the service was binned in the mid-90s as surely it was only carrying fresh air most days?

The final surprise is that as late as 1989 there were still internal Scottish sleepers! Something which I was certain had surely been consigned to the rubbish skip of history by 1989 but here we are, seven days per week:
View attachment 92356
(Image shows sleepers from Edinburgh/Glasgow Q Street to Perth where they combine and run onto Inverness)

It's also worth knowing that northbound only on Sunday to Thursday nights there were also sleeping cars conveyed on the Glasgow Queen Street portion through to Aberdeen. I'm struggling to work out what that was all about unless it was someway of trying shuffle stock around but otherwise seems an even more bizarre exercise than the fact that there were any internal sleepers still in Scotland as late as 1989! If you'd ask me before this I'd have thought they'd all gone extinct by the early 80s!!

Anyway, hopefully the above will at least be of interest (please do let me know if so, I've sunk more time than I really should into this post :lol:) but to come back to my opening question, considering that as late as 1989 there was a very extensive network of sleeper services (though admittedly smaller than it had been historically) when was the purge? When did the change happen to remove sleepers to places like Manchester, Liverpool and Stranraer? When did we go from two or three services per night to/from the major Scottish cities (including some sleeping car only direct services) down to the current two trains conveying portions only? If it really did happen between 1989 and the mid-90s it must have been one heck of a cull in a very short space of time! Did it get remarked on at all at the time? Or was this lost to either the white heat of privatisation gripping the industry and press or was it lost to the reality, I'd guess, that most of them were very quiet most of the time?
 

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In late 1978 I caught the train at around 04.00 from Kings Cross to Leeds; I was going, with bicycle, to look at the vacancy at Blea Moor. It only had a couple of passenger coaches as it was mostly parcels and newspaper traffic: it stopped at a few places like Biggleswade or Sandy to drop off packages of newspapers. It was all quiet until South Elmsall, when there was a rush of passengers, which finally put an end to my attempts to sleep.

There was actually quite a market for such a sleeper service, and comparable ones from Liverpool and Manchester. There were no 0630 high speed services in those times, and the first morning express, take the diesel Manchester Pullman as an example, left at 0745, arrived St Pancras 1055, first arrival of the day from Manchester. You might just make an 1130 business meeting, anything starting earlier needed an overnight stay - or the sleeper. Or anyone not entitled to first class expenses plus the Pullman supplement.

Or an 11.30 brief chat about the business before going out for lunch. Then return to discuss matters with both parties hoping that the other would be sufficiently mellowed by food, wine and brandy to let things slip past. On such was the Empire founded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I suspect that the Saturday services were dumped in the mid-90s in the run up to privatisation as just how costly all these sleeper services were during the wider rationalisation of the network.

An extra problem with Saturday night trains was that engineering works often took place overnight. Either taking the possessions had to be delayed or they had to be given up for a period, which meant less work was done, or Single Line Working had to be brought in, which was costly in staff and a headache for roster clerks.
 
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Taunton

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Fascinting stuff isn't the old sleeper network! It survived until fairly late as well. I did a long post a few years (quoted below) based on an May to October 1989 GBTT which illustrated quite how spread the network was even as late as that. Including internal Scottish sleeper services even! And it was very much still a seven day a week operation.

I suspect that the Saturday services were dumped in the mid-90s in the run up to privatisation as just how costly all these sleeper services were during the wider rationalisation of the network.
I've written before, too - about how an erstwhile contact in Edinburgh actually used the internal Scotland service to Inverness, which was quite common among Scottish Office civil servants, it not being possible then to arrive by day train in Inverness before midday.

The loss of Saturday night services was more about there being no mail/parcels traffic on that night. It also helped attendant staff rostering to have an even number of days in the week so they could each just make three return trips. Saturday night sleepers occasionally had full loads (and the seating vehicles had to be augmented) for returning football fans.
 
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