Revenue Protection at Brighton

[NeilCr]

Although ticket checks on Southeastern have increased I've done numerous journeys without any ticket check and ticket gates, where they exist, left open.

I’d agree with this

Definitely increasing my way on non HS1

Mind the revenue blocks at Ramsgate are “illuminating” when they occur

No gateline and they set up at the bottom of the stairs out. So you only see them when you get into the underpass from the platforms

Quite remarkable how many people suddenly remember that they meant to continue to Dumpton Park etc - or were actually changing trains not leaving the station!

 

[ValleyLines142]

I don't think that would happen in all likelihood, because in all likelihood you would specifically get on a train that calls at Preston Park in the first place. On top of that, many trains that call at Preston park would have their ticket checked at some point on the London Victoria to Littlehampton service. I also don't think it would likely work out at Brighton, given they would probably see you were doing something suspicious by just staying at the station like that, and ask you for a ticket check, where you would get caught red handed.

I think a more likely scenario however could be travelling Preston Park to Coastway (either east or west) without a ticket, because you cannot change from Coastway to London (or the other coastway line for that matter) due to how exit gates are arranged which are gated off from the rest of the station, but the entry gates are shared with the London platform, and the way in to the coastway lines isn't gated off by staff, so someone in a big crowd could easily turn away from the ticket barriers and onto the coastway platforms, and easily get onto the coastway lines to allight at a station with no gates. In all likelihood, given you would probably get away with that, as Thameslink don't have ticket checks, and if you allight shortly into a journey, you would most likely get off before a ticket check on Southern.

With that whole scenario, you should consider yourself very lucky to live on the West Coastway line, because that connects to the mainline by a short track chord, whereas with the East Coastway, because it connects by a branch line from Wivelsfield to Lewes, avoiding London Road, Moulsecoomb and Falmer, the only ways to get to London is to take an indirect train via Lewes, or a more direct one into Brighton, where you have to change and cross across the concourse straight to your platform and go through a long queue thanks to those officers turning people away from the direct route from platform 7/8 to 1-6.

In general, I think a better approach to this whole situation would just be to move the ticket barriers further back, and expand the space on the platform-side concourse so there is space for 3 routes from each pair of Coastway platforms, one for exiting the station, 1 for accessing the platform and 1 for changing trains (to either London trains or the other Coastway line), and have the latter of the three have an officer checking tickets on demand to make sure you actually have a ticket. Unfortunately, that requires investment, and money to be spent so Rachel Reeves would say no to anything that involves spending money instead of filling her "black hole".

I don't live on the West Coastway - I live in Gloucestershire

I do wonder at Brighton whether there really is a need for passengers simply changing trains to have to leave and re-enter completely. I can't imagine there would be that many people doing it so I just feel like they're overcomplicating things for the sake of it. I think it'll get to the stage where people changing trains will show their tickets and simply barge through; at the end of the day they only want to just get on with their journeys.

By comparison with Cardiff on events days at the Principality Stadium, where they make you exit one-way via the rear of the station, if you inform them you're changing trains they'll just open up a gap in the barriers and allow you through, no questions asked.

 

[MrJeeves]

I do wonder at Brighton whether there really is a need for passengers simply changing trains to have to leave and re-enter completely.

They explicitly force you to. It's the entire point of the checks. They do not let you through the metal, otherwise they wouldn't be bothering with all route segregation of sorts in the first place — there'd be literally zero benefit.

 

[8ace]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but re Preston Park, on days where they do a full block at Brighton (manual scanning of QR codes), they seem to often station a few grippers at Preston Park, presumably to do "entry scans" on people starting their journey there. Anyone from Preston Park without one, I assume it's a friendly chat with the revenue team!

I once encountered them when I went to collect a lot of tickets from the machine for a future journey to save time on the day as it was an early start. They begrudgingly allowed me thru in the end.

 

[ValleyLines142]

They explicitly force you to. It's the entire point of the checks. They do not let you through the metal, otherwise they wouldn't be bothering with all route segregation of sorts in the first place — there'd be literally zero benefit.

Such a ridiculous set up. I wonder whether there'd be grounds for delay repay should anyone miss a connection in busy times?

 

[williamn]

Such a ridiculous set up. I wonder whether there'd be grounds for delay repay should anyone miss a connection in busy times?

As discussed above they’ve lengthened the minimum connection time…

They could of course introduce a separate lane across the concourse for passengers changing. They already do this one way for passengers entering the barriers and needing platforms for the coastway outbound services.

 

[ValleyLines142]

As discussed above they’ve lengthened the minimum connection time…

They could of course introduce a separate lane across the concourse for passengers changing. They already do this one way for passengers entering the barriers and needing platforms for the coastway outbound services.

Yes but all it takes is one arriving train to be a couple of minutes late, and anyone with good knowledge of the station who on arrival could easily make a connecting train could end up missing it.

They just need a separate lane as you say, or for the staff to just apply a bit of common sense.....

 

[sh24]

On board ticket checks on Southern seem to be pretty much non existent. In neighbouring Southeastern barely a journey goes by without being checked.

I had a Southern Day Save day last week, 12 trains in total. Not one on board check, and that seems to be the norm.

 

[Bradford PA]

I don't live on the West Coastway - I live in Gloucestershire

I do wonder at Brighton whether there really is a need for passengers simply changing trains to have to leave and re-enter completely. I can't imagine there would be that many people doing it so I just feel like they're overcomplicating things for the sake of it. I think it'll get to the stage where people changing trains will show their tickets and simply barge through; at the end of the day they only want to just get on with their journeys.

By comparison with Cardiff on events days at the Principality Stadium, where they make you exit one-way via the rear of the station, if you inform them you're changing trains they'll just open up a gap in the barriers and allow you through, no questions asked.

I had no issues on a rugby day at Cardiff when changing to travel up the valleys to Aberdare. I wanted to purchase a coffee between trains and the shop was on another island platform, but I was simply ushered through when I explained my purpose. I also got to choose my seat on a virtually empty London-bound train upon my return as the rugby hordes were being held outside prior to being allowed to board.

 

[williamn]

or for the staff to just apply a bit of common sense.....

Staff are all agency, just doing what they're told to do. This also renders some of the operation pointless as when barriers reject tickets they generally wave you through as they don't know what they're looking for on them.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Staff are all agency, just doing what they're told to do. This also renders some of the operation pointless as when barriers reject tickets they generally wave you through as they don't know what they're looking for on them.

As ex-gateline myself, then they need the relevant training. Unfortunately most of the assessors just give them their gateline competency regardless of whether they've actually scored high or not just to rope them in quickly (I've seen some beyond useless agency staff at many GWR stations).

 

[jon0844]

Agency staff for revenue needs to be given full training to sell tickets, so MG11s and penalty fares - as well as having equipment to do ramp assists where appropriate.

Agency staff for platforms will have all the required competencies, but agency at gates usually can't do anything but open the gates manually and maybe report push throughs.

 

[Sonic1234]

Such a ridiculous set up. I wonder whether there'd be grounds for delay repay should anyone miss a connection in busy times?

Yes, absolutely. But the automated systems will reject it, so you have to apply, get rejected then go through customer relations.

With all that fuss, people will just give up and drive next time. Switching to driving is less likely if the journey ends in Brighton, because it's a pain to park, but for journeys between smaller towns on the coast the car is a viable choice.

 

[johncrossley]

The whole point of this exercise is to reduce the number of people travelling by train. If you extend journey times by 30 minutes or more, that's what happens.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The whole point of this exercise is to reduce the number of people travelling by train.

Is it? Surely it's an attempt to reduce the numbers getting a free ride? Unfortunately, everyone else gets caught up in the crossfire in the process.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Unintended consequences...

 

[paul1609]

The whole point of this exercise is to reduce the number of people travelling by train. If you extend journey times by 30 minutes or more, that's what happens.

The new "faster better more reliable" coastway service did that for me. An Eastbound journey from Portsmouth to Appledore now consists of 1tph limited stop service to Brighton, 46 min " connection " to Eastbourne calling at all halts and stations for another 10 min connection to the now abysmal Marshlink service. Total Journeytime now around 4 hours, average speed 24 mph. This compares to under 3 hours 10 years ago. Needless to say I now drive. With 46 mins at Brighton the barriers aren't really a problem tbf.

 

[Starmill]

Apologies for my lack of keeping up with this - is the 'triple segmentation' of Brighton in force every day now? Or is it just certain days?

How is it managed if a customer goes through the incorrect gate by mistake, given their ticket won't usually let them right back out again - do they just manually let lots of extra people in and out multiple times? Also, if there is a late notice platform alteration?

 

[MrJeeves]

Apologies for my lack of keeping up with this - is the 'triple segmentation' of Brighton in force every day now? Or is it just certain days?

How is it managed if a customer goes through the incorrect gate by mistake, given their ticket won't usually let them right back out again - do they just manually let lots of extra people in and out multiple times? Also, if there is a late notice platform alteration?

I've never seen it in use, personally! I've arrived/departed/changed many times with the barriers there and with staff there, but haven't actually seen them checking tickets yet.

I do wonder when they're doing it... Peak times only?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

In use almost every day but very frequently at differing times. The staff don't check the tickets, they're there to prevent people barging past the barriers and actually boarding the trains they paid thousands for.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

if you inform them you're changing trains they'll just open up a gap in the barriers and allow you through, no questions asked.

That would have been pretty easy to do at Brighton. All they would have needed to do would have been a three lane path from platform 1/2 and 7/8, then have the extra revenue staff checking tickets for those people. Unfortuanately, that idea was too "Complicated" for a private company that is freaking out about losing money, so they couldn't be even bothered to think about it.

In use almost every day but very frequently at differing times. The staff don't check the tickets, they're there to prevent people barging past the barriers and actually boarding the trains they paid thousands for.

Couldn't agree more. Season tickets from Brighton to London these days are an astonishing £5,000 or more, and that is going to be even more for people who have to start from one of Brighton's suburban stations on the East or West coastway (although to a lesser extent on the west coastway thanks to the service to Littlehampton) because Brighton station is beyond walking distance for them, and thus are forced to change at Brighton station, and previously could walk straight to the correct platform, but now end up in a queue to get out the station, and seconds later another queue to get in, and that can easily result in a missed connection that they can't claim compensation on thanks to interchange times. It leads to an absolutely shambolic experience for those people who have to use Brighton station or else, and might just put them off from commuting out of Brighton in the first place. Counter-measures like interchange times make no difference, when it means that your journey just takes longer than it should. If they are to improve long-term customer experience, then infrastructure upgrades should be made to strike a better balance between changing customers and the need to combat fare evasion.

How is it managed if a customer goes through the incorrect gate by mistake, given their ticket won't usually let them right back out again - do they just manually let lots of extra people in and out multiple times

That is no problem, because the entrance gates are still shared between all three lines (Mainline to London, East Coastway and West Coastway). They only split with paths after the gateline. It is simply the exit gates which are gated off and separated from each other.

Also, if there is a late notice platform alteration?

That would be a case-by-case basis depending on the type.
- if a London train which usually goes from platform 3-6 gets changed to 7 or 8, you can easily change from London to East Coastway no problem. (Platform 1 or 2 can't take anything other than West Coastway trains in passenger service, so scenario does not apply).
- If a West Coastway train changed from platform 3 to 1 or 2, then that is as easy as the scenario above.
- If an East Coastway train changed from platform 7/8 to 3-6, or a West Coastway train changed from platform 1/2 to 3, then unless the revenue protection staff member could clearly
hear the announcement and made an exception to having to leave the gateline to change gateline, then I suspect the most likely scenario would unfortuantely be to be forced back through the gateline, given they do seem pretty zealous in their enforcement of their orders from GTR.

now abysmal Marshlink service.

Off-topic, but that was going to have to go sooner or later, as it is was a case of 2-carriage diesel trains into Brighton, having to serve numerous places along the way. Maybe if they had proper and appropriate rolling stock, it would have been fine, but when you are getting overcrowding in Brighton as a direct result of the chosen rolling stock, changes did have to be made.
Also, I'm not sure how you ended up with a 46-minute connection at Brighton for an Eastbourne service, as they are now pretty evenly every 30 minues, one going only to Eastbourne and the other continuing to Hastings. There are also connections available at Lewes with services towards Seaford. With all this talk about minimum interchange times, by no means does that prevent you from having a connection shorter if you know the times at Brighton. For example, officially one of my recent journeys from lancing to Bognor Regis should have required me a 20-minute wait at Ford, but I can usually (unless the train is running late towards Southampton) get a 2-minute cross-platform connection at Barnham.

 

[ValleyLines142]

That would have been pretty easy to do at Brighton. All they would have needed to do would have been a three lane path from platform 1/2 and 7/8, then have the extra revenue staff checking tickets for those people. Unfortuanately, that idea was too "Complicated" for a private company that is freaking out about losing money, so they couldn't be even bothered to think about it.

It's abysmal, to be honest. Yes punish the fare evaders but don't inconvenience the honest decent fare paying passengers who have perfectly valid tickets.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Apologies if this has been mentioned up-thread, but there are many other situations where passengers have to leave and re-enter the transport system through two barrier lines.

Besides National Rail stations like Glasgow Central, Edinburgh, Liverpool Lime Street and St Pancras there are, of course, many interchanges with underground and metro systems where you have to go through two sets of barriers in succession. This obviously helps to protect revenue on all routes and systems.

If there are continuing high levels of ticketless travel despite the ever-widening number of methods of purchase, such that large numbers of people are ‘caught’ there is a problem that needs addressing. In the old days when it would have been private operators losing out this may have seemed to be a small issue (despite increasing the need for subsidy in franchise bids), now that all lost revenue has to be made up by The Taxpayer I am even more ready to see firm efforts to stem the loss.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Besides National Rail stations like Glasgow Central, Edinburgh, Liverpool Lime Street and St Pancras there are, of course, many interchanges with underground and metro systems where you have to go through two sets of barriers in succession. This obviously helps to protect revenue on all routes and systems.

Also London Liverpool Street; the two halves of the station do not have any means of crossing between one and the other within the barrier lines - which is particularly problematic because the passback time is set to 20 minutes and both sets of barriers are programmed as if they were one... so changing from, say, an arriving Norwich or Southend service in the high numbered side to a suburban service from the low numbered side or vice versa will always generate a passback at the second barrier.

 

[MikeWM]

Also London Liverpool Street; the two halves of the station do not have any means of crossing between one and the other within the barrier lines - which is particularly problematic because the passback time is set to 20 minutes and both sets of barriers are programmed as if they were one... so changing from, say, an arriving Norwich or Southend service in the high numbered side to a suburban service from the low numbered side or vice versa will always generate a passback at the second barrier.

Yes, I encounter this issue fairly regularly. It is rather absurd that it hasn't been addressed in some way.

 

[Starmill]

That is no problem, because the entrance gates are still shared between all three lines (Mainline to London, East Coastway and West Coastway). They only split with paths after the gateline. It is simply the exit gates which are gated off and separated from each other.

How can that be possible? If you go in through the central section of the gateline how do they keep you separated from people who just alighted from an arrival from London, so that you may move to either Coastway service, but those who just alighted from a train cannot?

 

[williamn]

How can that be possible? If you go in through the central section of the gateline how do they keep you separated from people who just alighted from an arrival from London, so that you may move to either Coastway service, but those who just alighted from a train cannot?

Through the use of lots of temporary barriers.

 

[JonathanH]

Unfortuanately, that idea was too "Complicated" for a private company that is freaking out about losing money, so they couldn't be even bothered to think about it.

Which private company is freaking out about losing money? All revenue risk sits with Treasury / DfT.

 

[DJ_K666]

I once encountered them when I went to collect a lot of tickets from the machine for a future journey to save time on the day as it was an early start. They begrudgingly allowed me thru in the end.

That sounds like there might be a whole load of shiny new gates between platforms 1 and 2 then, as it was all fancied off before and you went through the barriers which stretched from 3 to 7 over that metal bit of walkway.

 

[8ace]

That sounds like there might be a whole load of shiny new gates between platforms 1 and 2 then, as it was all fancied off before and you went through the barriers which stretched from 3 to 7 over that metal bit of walkway.

This was at PP, which was mentioned in the post I quoted. I could have made that clearer perhaps