Definition of Ticket under Byelaw 18

[BongoStar]

There is a requirement to have a valid ticket (in whatever form) for travel that can be inspected by the relevant staff.

What you showed them was proof of a card that had been tapped in. Nothing more , nothing less. It is their decision whether to accept that or not.

An inspector can validly refuse to accept a ToD collection receipt if presented on its own. And what you showed them is equivalent to that, ie: there is a card that has been tapped in at ##:##am. Without them confirming that the method of payment is with you, how are they going to satisfy themselves that it is indeed you.

Not saying you have evaded or anything, but what you wanted to present is equivalent of "proof of purchase" at most, not a ticket on its own.

 

[summie]

Thank you

I don't think tfl terms apply here as it was south eastern. I did find something in national rails condition of travel but the specific conditions under 4.2 are not defined anywhere.

If criminal prosecution is to be brought I believe the law should be clear. Conditions of travel are civil in contract law. I cannot find case law or byelaws under statute to support their side.

(Again I know it's just easier to just present to the reader and move on)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2024 ==

There is a requirement to have a valid ticket (in whatever form) for travel that can be inspected by the relevant staff.

What you showed them was proof of a card that had been tapped in. Nothing more , nothing less. It is their decision whether to accept that or not.

An inspector can validly refuse to accept a ToD collection receipt if presented on its own. And what you showed them is equivalent to that, ie: there is a card that has been tapped in at ##:##am. Without them confirming that the method of payment is with you, how are they going to satisfy themselves that it is indeed you.

Not saying you have evaded or anything, but what you wanted to present is equivalent of "proof of purchase" at most, not a ticket on its own.

Thank you for your post. I respectfully disagree as the proof of payment is me showing them in accessing the wallet on my phone with biometrics and showing them the screenshot I presented (without the tap out as I was still mid journey). So they could prove the proof was with me and that I tapped in. Tbf most ticket inspectors have accepted that before like you said it is their discretion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(Again I know it's just easier to just present to the reader and move on)

Or to choose another method of payment if you're unhappy with the mechanism of contactless. I would recommend given your concerns you get an Oyster card and keep the sum on it to one you're happy to lose.

The rest of it is just theoretical discussion which is interesting enough but not actually how things will pan out in the real world, so unless you're an "auditor" seeking to stir things up for likes (not that I'm saying you are!) it isn't relevant to your future actions on this matter.

 

[crablab]

The NFC data you can read from a card is enough to be able to do a "downgrade attack" and process a "contactless magstripe" transaction afterwards. Up until scarily recently, there were not sufficient controls in place to prevent this sort of attack.

It depends on what's in the CVM list and in what order.
Only Amex, until recently, had Contactless Magstripe preferential.
Issuers are unlikely to authorise a transaction with Contactless Magstripe outside of the US, and I understood the requirement to allow it is going away...

Google Wallet (and others), aren't really at risk from NFC cloning, they don't store any card info (even the original number) and instead contain anonymous tokens which some are rotated at every transaction

They do store card info in the enclave, it's just a tokenised card (DPAN) which is only usable in a certain way.
The token is definitely not "anonymous" and does not rotate. Other parameters rotate as normal in EMV and network CIS (Customer Interface Specification).

 

[dosxuk]

I respectfully disagree as the proof of payment is me showing them in accessing the wallet on my phone with biometrics and showing them the screenshot I presented (without the tap out as I was still mid journey). So they could prove the proof was with me and that I tapped in.

It would be trivial to create an app which looked like it was showing proof of tapping in. Nothing anyone shows on a phone screen can be trusted to be genuine by people - hence the move to cryptographically signed barcodes and NFC transactions, which can be verified against third party information by other software.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think tfl terms apply here as it was south eastern. I did find something in national rails condition of travel but the specific conditions under 4.2 are not defined anywhere.

I suspect they will apply, because the entire contactless payment system is operated by TfL on behalf of the TOCs. The linked National Rail page about conditions of travel cross does cross-refer to additional TfL conditions for both Oyster and Contactless:

Your Rights and Obligations as a Passenger | National Rail

When you buy a train ticket to travel on the rail network, you enter into an agreement with the train companies. Find out about your rights and obligations as a passenger, and how to get more information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

I suppose you might argue that the rules might be better in one consolidated document, but I think they probably believe they’ve got the subject covered…

 

[BongoStar]

Thank you for your post. I respectfully disagree as the proof of payment is me showing them in accessing the wallet on my phone with biometrics and showing them the screenshot I presented (without the tap out as I was still mid journey). So they could prove the proof was with me and that I tapped in. Tbf most ticket inspectors have accepted that before like you said it is their discretion.

That's fine. I am not here to say whether that is right or wrong. I was just bringing to your attention that what you showed is completely at the discretion of the inspector to accept or not.

Essentially what you presented is no different from someone who has lost his ticket, but has a ToD collection receipt, booking reference email and the card on hand that was used to pay and collect the ticket. Even then, it is not valid for travel per rules. There are those who will accept the combination of the three in absence of the ticket itself, and there are those who will stick by the rule book and refuse it.

 

[kristiang85]

I get your concern with this. I personally never use contactless to travel, although mostly due to wanting to use my gold card, which can only be loaded onto my Oyster, but I also do like the extra security using an Oyster offers. As this is TFL, my best advice would be to use an Oyster card going forward.

The problem is what you did was essentially showing a payment receipt, which isn't a valid ticket - on any normal train you can't show a receipt as a valid ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

You have to tap your card like everyone else does, and you’re just being difficult and not generating much sympathy here.

There seems to be a lot of side tracking. I'm being honest. I don't quite know how it happened. The bank managed to get it back. It just seems that nobody can really answer my original question. It's just easier to call me a fare evader and liar. I noticed nobody apologised for calling me a fare evader after showing you my google wallet. And I have made many purchases over £100 via contactless. To be fair it was a targeted crime on me so the chances of it happening by touching a ticket inspectors reader is unlikely as many have said but that doesn't really answer the original question. Do I have to? Is there another way to prove?

 

[soil]

I don't think tfl terms apply here as it was south eastern. I did find something in national rails condition of travel but the specific conditions under 4.2 are not defined anywhere.

Yes they are.

4.2 Some Tickets are held as an electronic record on a smartcard or electronic device or may be transmitted to you for you to show or print out yourself. In such cases you will be advised of (and must comply with) the specific conditions applying to Tickets held in those formats.

then

18.2 If for any reason your Ticket is invalid, Train Company staff may withdraw it unless it is held on an electronic device or payment card. Where your Ticket is withdrawn you will be given a receipt

then

Appendix B, definitions

“Ticket” means any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network between the stations or within the zones indicated by one or more of the Train Companies.

An electronic document or record may consist of (but not be limited to):

• a Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);
• a payment card or identity card;
• a mobile telephone or tablet device;
• other mobile electronic device;
• or a database, in conjunction with an authorised Contactless Bank Card bearing the symbol described in the notices and publications of the Train Company as being valid for travel on their services.

Electronic documents or records may not display the same information as printed Tickets but the conditions for use of these will explain where this information can be found.

In this case, the Ticket IS your phone (and it's not a "contactless card", btw, a payment made by phone from Google Wallet linked to a given payment card is not related to a payment made by phone from the payment card itself). By making the totally voluntary decision to use your £1000 smartphone rather than any of the other MANY forms of payment, you MUST present your phone for checking. If you do not like this, other tickets are available.

You are also guilty under Byelaw 18 and may commit an offence under RORA s 5(1) as well.

This is clear in the Byelaws

“Ticket” includes:
7. any type of smart card, pre-pay, or other form of electronic ticket, and

Clearly the phone is a form of electronic ticket.

If we are to be pedantic, the ticket is the specific ID of the specific Google Wallet card emitted by the phone's NFC transmitter. However that ID cannot be communicated by any means other than by tapping the phone. "Presenting" your ticket means tapping it on a reader designed for this purpose, which allows the actual ticket (the numerical ID) to be read.

 

[summie]

Yes they are.

4.2 Some Tickets are held as an electronic record on a smartcard or electronic device or may be transmitted to you for you to show or print out yourself. In such cases you will be advised of (and must comply with) the specific conditions applying to Tickets held in those formats.

then

18.2 If for any reason your Ticket is invalid, Train Company staff may withdraw it unless it is held on an electronic device or payment card. Where your Ticket is withdrawn you will be given a receipt

then

Appendix B, definitions

“Ticket” means any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network between the stations or within the zones indicated by one or more of the Train Companies.

An electronic document or record may consist of (but not be limited to):

• a Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);
• a payment card or identity card;
• a mobile telephone or tablet device;
• other mobile electronic device;
• or a database, in conjunction with an authorised Contactless Bank Card bearing the symbol described in the notices and publications of the Train Company as being valid for travel on their services.

Electronic documents or records may not display the same information as printed Tickets but the conditions for use of these will explain where this information can be found.

In this case, the Ticket IS your phone (and it's not a "contactless card", btw, a payment made by phone from Google Wallet linked to a given payment card is not related to a payment made by phone from the payment card itself). By making the totally voluntary decision to use your £1000 smartphone rather than any of the other MANY forms of payment, you MUST present your phone for checking. If you do not like this, other tickets are available.

You are also guilty under Byelaw 18 and may commit an offence under RORA s 5(1) as well.

This is clear in the Byelaws

“Ticket” includes:
7. any type of smart card, pre-pay, or other form of electronic ticket, and

Clearly the phone is a form of electronic ticket.

If we are to be pedantic, the ticket is the specific ID of the specific Google Wallet card emitted by the phone's NFC transmitter. However that ID cannot be communicated by any means other than by tapping the phone. "Presenting" your ticket means tapping it on a reader designed for this purpose, which allows the actual ticket (the numerical ID) to be read.

Thanks for your explanation. I will read it properly when I get a chance. Thanks again

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2024 ==

You have to tap your card like everyone else does, and you’re just being difficult and not generating much sympathy here.

I'm not here for sympathy. I here to find the correct parts of the law that are being used for enforcement.

 

[LYuen]

I don't think the point is just counterfeiting card details. It is impossible for to tell if it is a real ticket inspector with a genuine machine, or a POS machine that takes random amount of money (the machine and the uniform can be fake)
However, I do agree using Oyster Card or other forms of ticket is the way for not agreeing with such practice.

 

[KNN]

I don't think the point is just counterfeiting card details. It is impossible for to tell if it is a real ticket inspector with a genuine machine, or a POS machine that takes random amount of money (the machine and the uniform can be fake)
However, I do agree using Oyster Card or other forms of ticket is the way for not agreeing with such practice.

It's not impossible, rail staff will have ID, which should be visible, and a uniform.

It might be possible to sneak on as a fake scam conductor but it's unlikely, and even more that you'd get away with it. It would only take one passenger having transaction alerts (which are default setting on Monzo).

 

[island]

You have to tap your card like everyone else does, and you’re just being difficult and not generating much sympathy here.

This is what it boils down to, being difficult.

If you don't wish to cooperate with the requirement to tap your card/device for inspection purposes, get and use an Oyster card or a paper ticket.

 

[Snow1964]

Do any TOCs proactively publish what passengers should look for in terms of proof of ID from an revenue inspector? Is there any cross-industry join-up, or does each operator do their own thing?

The only thing I'd know to be relatively consistent (and have seen before) is the RST Travel Identity Card, but that obviously isn't designed for this use-case.

Obviously if the Inspector is in full uniform then have to assume they are railway staff (and not some fraudster in clone uniform)

If you go into the legalities it gets rather messy because many ticketing offences are charged under an 1880s Act. It seems most rail companies at the time issued metal discs which were engraved to show identification. The reason why I say messy is if a modern equivalent didn't replicate the info on the 1880s how do you still know the ID is sufficient, in theory a very sharp lawyer could question where identity requirements were reduced over last 135 years and possibly find some technicality if the Inspector couldn't prove they were a railway employee (and a colleague saying of course isn't really absolute proof).

Might seem silly off topic debate, but this whole thread is based on what is legally required, rather than commonly accepted as meeting requirements

 

[Haywain]

a POS machine that takes random amount of money (the machine and the uniform can be fake)

The machine would have to be real to take any money, but it would be entirely traceable and going into another bank account. Therefore such a scam wouldn’t last long at all, and really wouldn’t be worth the effort.

 

[Geswedey]

It's not impossible, rail staff will have ID, which should be visible, and a uniform.

It might be possible to sneak on as a fake scam conductor but it's unlikely, and even more that you'd get away with it. It would only take one passenger having transaction alerts (which are default setting on Monzo).

When I was an RPI we did plain clothes shifts but carried our Warrant Cards and our authorised collectors badges which we produced if we stopped and questioned anyone. uniform isn't always worn by revenue staff.

 

[some bloke]

@summie , I think you've been trying to clarify what the requirement is, rather than saying you don't want to cooperate with it or "just being difficult".