Unfair fares to London Overground stations

[Nicholas43]

Is there any hope of suppressing the unfair fares to (some?) London Overground stations (or will I have to await Great British Rail)? For example, there is a £52.50 SVR fare Oxford<>London Fields. The forum's booking site, of course, knows about this scam, and offers me, instead, Oxford<>U1-2 for £43. Incidentally, how do I find this fare on BR fares?

 

[Watershed]

It's not clear to me why a ticket to London Underground Zones 1-2 would be valid on the Overground to/from London Fields (LOF), but perhaps I'm missing something obvious. There is NR/LU interavailability between Tottenham Hale and Zone 1, however I would have thought that would require a ticket to/from Zones 1-3.

Either way, there is an obligation in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement for the "lead operator" (i.e. main fare-setting operator) for every journey to offer certain through fares, so the "unfair" through fares cannot be withdrawn - in theory. Of course, in practice we know that this sometimes happens anyway (whether with permission or otherwise) when it's expedient for political or policy reasons, but that will be the reason GWR will hide behind for now. I imagine it will be the same under GBR unless there is wholescale reform of the TSA, which I can't see happening anytime soon.

And although you may consider the through fares to LOF as "unfair", bear in mind that in many circumstances they are actually cheaper. The Anytime Day Return is £80.20 vs £87.90 to Zone U12, and there isn't an Off-Peak Day Return to Zone U12 whereas there is to LOF.

In terms of finding the fare you need to search for "Zone U12*" or similar, see here.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The forum's booking site, of course, knows about this scam, and offers me instead Oxford<>U1-2 for £43.
Incidentally, how do I find this fare on BR fares?

See link below...

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

But as @Watershed asks, is the £43.00 Off Peak Return fare definitely valid from Oxford to/from London Fields?

 

[signed]

The forum's booking site, of course, knows about this scam, and offers me instead Oxford<>U1-2 for £43

As most cases, your best bet is to use PAYG in the London zones, especially off-peak where a Paddington to London Fields costs £2.80 and you can get a Off-Peak Day Return for £34.40/Off-Peak Return for £36.20

 

[Nicholas43]

See link below...

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Thanks!

But as @Watershed asks, is the £43.00 Off Peak Return fare definitely valid from Oxford to/from London Fields?

Well, an accredited retailer says it is:
[screenshot showing itinerary Oxford - Paddington - Liverpool Street - London Fields]

 

[Watershed]

Thanks!

Well, an accredited retailer says it is:
[screenshot showing itinerary Oxford - Paddington - Liverpool Street - London Fields]
View attachment 167324

You are, as always, entitled to follow the itinerary you select when booking your ticket - so there is no question about the contractual validity, only the validity that would apply in the absence of an itinerary. It's possible the ticket will work the barriers at LOF anyway. But I am curious/surprised at this being offered; perhaps someone else can explain it to me!

 

[Nicholas43]

As most cases, your best bet is to use PAYG in the London zones, especially off-peak where a Paddington to London Fields costs £2.80 and you can get a Off-Peak Day Return for £34.40/Off-Peak Return for £36.20

Ah, many thanks! I did try selecting the 'use Oyster etc in London' option.

 

[signed]

There is NR/LU interavailability between Tottenham Hale and Zone 1, however I would have thought that would require a ticket to/from Zones 1-3.

What does that have to do with Tottenham Hale? Going to London Fields from Paddington means you are on NR all the times (EL to Liverpool Street and then Overground)

 

[Nicholas43]

You are, as always, entitled to follow the itinerary you select when booking your ticket - so there is no question about the contractual validity, only the validity that would apply in the absence of an itinerary. It's possible the ticket will work the barriers at LOF anyway. But I am curious/surprised at this being offered; perhaps someone else can explain it to me!

As it happens, there aren't any barriers at London Fields. But shouldn't a ticket to London zones 1 and 2 open the barriers at any [edit: TfL] station in zones 1 and 2?

 

[MrJeeves]

But shouldn't a ticket to London zones 1 and 2 open the barriers at any station in zones 1 and 2?

The ticket is to London Underground Zones 1-2.

 

[Watershed]

As it happens, there aren't any barriers at London Fields. But shouldn't a ticket to London zones 1 and 2 open the barriers at any station in zones 1 and 2?

Sorry - assumed there would be barriers!

A ticket to London Underground and DLR Zones 1-2 is, in principle, only valid on the Underground and DLR. There are some National Rail services it's also valid on due to interavailability, but this is essentially the exception to the rule.

What does that have to do with Tottenham Hale? Going to London Fields from Paddington means you are on NR all the times (EL to Liverpool Street and then Overground)

Tottenham Hale is in Zone 3, so if you want to take advantage of this interavailability you will need a ticket that covers the entire nominal Z3-1 journey between Tottenham Hale and Zone 1 - even if you only want to travel to/from a Zone 2 station.

 

[signed]

Tottenham Hale is in Zone 3, so if you want to take advantage of this interavailability you will need a ticket that covers the entire Z3-1 journey, even if you only want to travel to/from a Zone 2 station.

I get it, yeah it's the Underground part that's at issue, brain needed to process

 

[redreni]

Tottenham Hale is in Zone 3, so if you want to take advantage of this interavailability you will need a ticket that covers the entire nominal Z3-1 journey between Tottenham Hale and Zone 1 - even if you only want to travel to/from a Zone 2 station.

Sorry if I'm being slow, but if there's interavailability between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale, why the need for the ticket to cover zone 3 if you don't pass through zone 3? The obvious route is Oxford > Paddington > Liverpool Street > London Fields.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Knowledgebase has a list of NR services where U zone tickets are accepted, though it's not entirely clear if that applies to through tickets or just "local" ones.

Entries on that list include Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central - Liverpool Street.

 

[Watershed]

Sorry if I'm being slow, but if there's interavailability between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale, why the need for the ticket to cover zone 3 if you don't pass through zone 3? The obvious route is Oxford > Paddington > Liverpool Street > London Fields.

The interavailability is only stated as being for National Rail tickets which are valid between Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale, Walthamstow Central and Zone U1 or beyond.

So although you wouldn't be travelling in Zone 3, you don't fall within the scope of the interavailability (which is, after all, an exception to the rule) unless your ticket includes Zone 3.

 

[Nicholas43]

The ticket is to London Underground Zones 1-2.

TfL's 'Tube' map includes London Fields (and, indeed, all TfL's services branded Overground, and latterly separately named).

 

[Watershed]

TfL's 'Tube' map includes London Fields (and, indeed, all TfL's services branded Overground, and latterly separately named).
View attachment 167326

That doesn't make them part of the Underground, I'm afraid. Thameslink, DLR and tram services also feature but that doesn't mean they are part of the Underground either.

 

[yorkie]

In practice, although it's not documented anywhere, LO accept U tickets, as if LO was part of LU.

Not only that, but I've had tickets specifically issued from "Zone U123" when I have asked for a ticket from a LO station before.

It is very difficult to get the rules of inter-availability spot-on because it's not in any official data feed, so it requires retailers and their providers to come up with a custom set of data, as well as custom electronic rules.

 

[Nicholas43]

In practice, although it's not documented anywhere, LO accept U tickets, as if LO was part of LU.
...

Many thanks for clearing that up. I certainly don't see how the ordinary passenger could be supposed to distinguish between overground ‘Underground’ lines such as Baker Street to Amersham, and underground ‘Overground’ lines such as Whitechapel to Surrey Quays!

 

[Watershed]

Many thanks for clearing that up. I certainly don't see how the ordinary passenger could be supposed to distinguish between overground ‘Underground’ lines such as Baker Street to Amersham, and underground ‘Overground’ lines such as Whitechapel to Surrey Quays!

A fair point but the clue would be in the name - Overground. Just because they are both run by TfL doesn't mean that an Underground ticket is valid on the Overground.

However I'll be the first to say that ticketing in London is complicated and, at times, confusing!

 

[Deerfold]

That doesn't make them part of the Underground, I'm afraid. Thameslink, DLR and tram services also feature but that doesn't mean they are part of the Underground either.

Though I can't think of a London Underground ticket that covers the central section that isn't valid on Thameslink.

 

[Starmill]

Though I can't think of a London Underground ticket that covers the central section that isn't valid on Thameslink.

I think Watershed was getting at the point that, say, Elstree & Borehamwood is on the map. I would not expect a ticket from say Tonbridge to Zone U1256 London to be issued for a Tonbridge to Elstree & Borehamwood journey, no more than I would for a journey to say Chingford. However in practice a journey to Chingford on relevant U zone tickets is very likely to be accepted by London Overground even though this isn't written down anywhere and would not have been accepted when the service was run by Greater Anglia. I wouldn't expect to be let in at Elstree & Borehamwood today.

 

[Deerfold]

I think Watershed was getting at the point that, say, Elstree & Borehamwood is on the map. I would not expect a ticket from say Tonbridge to Zone U1256 London to be issued for a Tonbridge to Elstree & Borehamwood journey, no more than I would for a journey to say Chingford. However in practice a journey to Chingford on relevant U zone tickets is very likely to be accepted by London Overground even though this isn't written down anywhere and would not have been accepted when the service was run by Greater Anglia. I wouldn't expect to be let in at Elstree & Borehamwood today.

I think I'm thinking of the old tube maps which only used to show the section of Thameslink where Underground tickets were valid. I see your and @Watershed's point.