• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern's North East services should be absorbed into another operator

Status
Not open for further replies.

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
5,088
Moderator note: Split from

There is a real question over whether Northern can adequately serve the North East, given it is effectively a long leg from the rest of their operations. Adding it to one of the longer distance TOCs, whilst an odd fit, could be a preferable option.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
3,370
Adding it to one of the longer distance TOCs, whilst an odd fit, could be a preferable option
With Great British Railways coming soon*, isn't it ending up with Nexus at some point around as likely as it going to TPE? (All non-short-workings of CrossCountry services serve Birmingham and LNER, unlike GWR, doesn't have any local services at the London end, so I'd say TPE's the most natural fit of those three).

What benefit would that bring? Could drivers or rolling stock be moved around more effectively if need be?
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
5,088
With Great British Railways coming soon*, isn't it ending up with Nexus at some point around as likely as it going to TPE? (All non-short-workings of CrossCountry services serve Birmingham and LNER, unlike GWR, doesn't have any local services at the London end, so I'd say TPE's the most natural fit of those three).

What benefit would that bring? Could drivers or rolling stock be moved around more effectively if need be?
People on Teesside get weary enough with everyone thinking that the North East=Tyneside without giving Nexus control over trains for the whole region.
 

harz99

Member
Joined
14 Jul 2009
Messages
913
There is a real question over whether Northern can adequately serve the North East, given it is effectively a long leg from the rest of their operations. Adding it to one of the longer distance TOCs, whilst an odd fit, could be a preferable option.
With the same rolling stock and same staff all transferred to whatever other TOC, what on earth would that achieve?
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
3,370
People on Teesside get weary enough with everyone thinking that the North East=Tyneside without giving Nexus control over trains for the whole region.
Give the Tees Valley Combined Authority some level of say as well then (and, for Whitby, North Yorkshire?). TfL run lots of services outside Greater London, even if it's not to that extent (e.g. that almost all of Hartlepool's trains would be run by Nexus).
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
5,088
With the same rolling stock and same staff all transferred to whatever other TOC, what on earth would that achieve?
A greater repetitional incentive for getting long distance passengers both to their ECML train and the last leg of the journey home, plus that Northern is simply too geographically disparate to give proper attention to the North East.
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
3,370
A greater repetitional incentive for getting long distance passengers both to their ECML train and the last leg of the journey home, plus that Northern is simply too geographically disparate to give proper attention to the North East.
How would giving services to a TOC operating services in London or Gloucestershire be any better if geographical disparation's the issue?
 

GuyGibsonVC

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2019
Messages
232
Location
Up North
Do ScotRail still come down the Tyne Valley? I remember that they did a few years ago.

Hopefully, when the Blyth and Tyne is open, it doesn’t suffer from this.

Finally, does anyone know why the ‘Chathill Flyer’ is always a Class 156? It does get full and standing coming back from Chathill to Newcastle in the morning with a fair few getting on at Morpeth and Cramlington and I don’t think I’ve seen a Class 158 on it. I may just be unlucky.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,120
Location
Redcar
There is a real question over whether Northern can adequately serve the North East, given it is effectively a long leg from the rest of their operations. Adding it to one of the longer distance TOCs, whilst an odd fit, could be a preferable option.
Apart from a recent blip we've often have had a more reliable service up here than the rest of Northern! It often sounds like Northern's service is faintly apocalyptic but I'm looking around thinking "huh, all seems to be running fine generally...". There's no particular issue that I can see with Northern not paying enough attention. We've just got the same issue with not enough staff available to run the service just as many other places struggle with at the moment.

I'm not sure that rolling a bunch of local services into a someone like TPE or LNER would do anything but it might well make things worse considering it would be so far away from their bread and butter.
 

InkyScrolls

On Moderation
Joined
20 Jul 2022
Messages
1,460
Location
North of England
Do ScotRail still come down the Tyne Valley? I remember that they did a few years ago.
Not for a few years now.
Hopefully, when the Blyth and Tyne is open, it doesn’t suffer from this.
I'm sure it will! It's not an entirely separate operation so why should it be any better (or worse)?
Finally, does anyone know why the ‘Chathill Flyer’ is always a Class 156? It does get full and standing coming back from Chathill to Newcastle in the morning with a fair few getting on at Morpeth and Cramlington and I don’t think I’ve seen a Class 158 on it. I may just be unlucky.
It'll be to do with where the unit is diagrammed later in the day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

As we have a new thread specifically for this topic: I think separating the services from Northern would achieve nothing. The NE is already pretty good most of the time and the only realistic alternative, TPE, would definitely not be an improvement!
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
20,411
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
With Great British Railways coming soon*, isn't it ending up with Nexus at some point around as likely as it going to TPE? (All non-short-workings of CrossCountry services serve Birmingham and LNER, unlike GWR, doesn't have any local services at the London end, so I'd say TPE's the most natural fit of those three).

What benefit would that bring? Could drivers or rolling stock be moved around more effectively if need be?

I don’t think transfer to Nexus would be particularly popular. They aren’t really well regarded in Tyne & Wear, and there would be issues over a Tyne & Wear authority having having influence over the wider north-east.

Unlike TFL who, by and large were regarded as competently running LU, the metro is something of a shambles. How much of that is down to Nexus is debatable, but it isn’t a great advertisement for taking over more.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,120
Location
Redcar
I don’t think transfer to Nexus would be particularly popular. They aren’t really well regarded in Tyne & Wear, and there would be issues over a Tyne & Wear authority having having influence over the wider north-east.

Yes, even more than their poor reputation which just is what it is, the main issue is that Nexus is focussed on Tyne and Wear. So the Northern services which will run on the Blythe and Tyne up to Ashington would make sense as an addition to Nexus purview but beyond that? I guess it's just about arguable that the Morpeth - Carlisle services just about make sense coming under the jursidiction of Nexus but Hexham - Nunthorpe? Bishop Auckland - Saltburn?

If you wanted a group of services which are stuck out on their own and likely to get ignored putting the current Northern services under Nexus seems like an ideal way of doing that! After all Nexus sits under the North East Combined Authority (which only actually covers Northumberland, North Tyneside, South Tyneside, Gateshead, Newcastle and Sunderland. Not the whole North East) so logically they're going to be far more interested in the services in that area rather than what's going on down in Whitby or over in Wetheral.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,615
The last Northern franchise agreement required a distinct "North East Business Unit" and to this day the structure of Northern includes a Regional HQ, headed by a Regional Director (as an aside the whole of Northern structured like this). Various things are provided from the centre to each of the Regions, as clearly there is no need for a separate North East Safety Case or a separate North East IT department.
 

JLH4AC

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2023
Messages
184
Location
Market Rasen
A reasonable case can be made that Northern should be split up into TOCs/Business Units of similar geographical size to the other regional TOCs especially if we want to increase local control over the railways.
I don’t think transfer to Nexus would be particularly popular. They aren’t really well regarded in Tyne & Wear, and there would be issues over a Tyne & Wear authority having having influence over the wider north-east.
The North of Tyne Combined Authority and North East Combined Authority were merged into the North East Mayoral Combined Authority in May 2024 and between 2018 and 2024 the North East Joint Transport Committee was the governing body of Nexus. I don't think it is likely that the Nexus will be expanded to cover the whole of the North East, it is more likely that if the transport powers relating to the North East as a whole are transferred from the Combined Authority they would be transferred to a separate municipally owned corporation similar to the West Midlands Rail Executive.
 

Manutd1999

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2021
Messages
549
Location
UK
In my preferred vision for GBR we will have 1x national brand operating the Intercity/Interregional services, then a series of devolved regional TOCs.

In this scenario a specific North-East TOC makes a lot of sense. LNER and TPE would be operated by the national TOC, then everything else would be devolved to a local transport authority, governed by representatives from the Tyne & Wear and Tees Valley mayoral regions. Newcastle-Carlisle would be an obviosu outlier, but perhaps that could also be part of the North-East region with suitable safeguards to ensure the service is maintained.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
5,123
Location
County Durham
My own view is that the North East section of Northern really should be a standalone operation, one that works with (but isn’t controlled by) the North East and Tees Valley combined authorities and has the freedom to develop what is already an operationally isolated network into a bespoke operation to suit the specific needs of the specific routes for fleet replacement and service enhancements, as opposed to the one size fits all approach that’s being proposed for the whole of Northern at present.

With Great British Railways coming soon*, isn't it ending up with Nexus at some point around as likely as it going to TPE? (All non-short-workings of CrossCountry services serve Birmingham and LNER, unlike GWR, doesn't have any local services at the London end, so I'd say TPE's the most natural fit of those three).

What benefit would that bring? Could drivers or rolling stock be moved around more effectively if need be?
The only benefit of a merger with either TPE or LNER is that it would allow 5 car 80xs to be used on local services when there’s exceptionally high demand, for example Tall Ships in Hartlepool. Not enough of a benefit on its own to make it worthwhile.

If the North East part of Northern were to be grouped in with LNER operations under GBR, the logical thing to do would be to also group the GN part of GTR with it too to create a GWR style operation on the ECML.

Finally, does anyone know why the ‘Chathill Flyer’ is always a Class 156? It does get full and standing coming back from Chathill to Newcastle in the morning with a fair few getting on at Morpeth and Cramlington and I don’t think I’ve seen a Class 158 on it. I may just be unlucky.
The evening working seems to get 158s quite often.

156s and 158s have set diagrams in the North East however with the exception of diagrams that interwork at Carlisle either with the Cumbrian Coast (must be 156s) or the S&C (must be 158s), both types are generally interchangeable. An inter working diagram may not be immediately obvious - a diagram might keep the unit on the Tyne Valley one day but then leave the unit stabled in such a position at Carlisle overnight that it has to work either an S&C or Cumbrian Coast diagram the next day.

I don’t think transfer to Nexus would be particularly popular. They aren’t really well regarded in Tyne & Wear, and there would be issues over a Tyne & Wear authority having having influence over the wider north-east.

Unlike TFL who, by and large were regarded as competently running LU, the metro is something of a shambles. How much of that is down to Nexus is debatable, but it isn’t a great advertisement for taking over more.
All of the issues with Metro are down to Nexus. Even the unreliability of the fleet - if Nexus hadn’t wasted so much of the 2000s on the unrealistic Project Orpheus then they’d have been able to get the Metro fleet replaced a decade ago and we wouldn’t have been in the mess we’re in now. They’re incompetent and shouldn’t be handed control of anything else of any kind until they get their act together and begin to properly run what they’re already responsible for.

A reasonable case can be made that Northern should be split up into TOCs/Business Units of similar geographical size to the other regional TOCs especially if we want to increase local control over the railways.

The North of Tyne Combined Authority and North East Combined Authority were merged into the North East Mayoral Combined Authority in May 2024 and between 2018 and 2024 the North East Joint Transport Committee was the governing body of Nexus. I don't think it is likely that the Nexus will be expanded to cover the whole of the North East, it is more likely that if the transport powers relating to the North East as a whole are transferred from the Combined Authority they would be transferred to a separate municipally owned corporation similar to the West Midlands Rail Executive.
Nexus is now part of the North East Combined Authority, unfortunately with previous management remaining in place. Whilst at present their jurisdiction remains Tyne & Wear, the Mayor has the power to expand that to include Northumberland and Durham without consultation should she wish.

What’s more worrying than the prospect of Nexus getting control of the Tyne Valley and Durham Coast is the prospect of Nexus gaining control of all buses in the full North East Combined Authority area as part of Kim McGuinness’s ‘Angel Network’ and putting every single route on yearly contracts predominantly to operators who don’t have the resources to operate them, which is what already happens with the secured routes in Tyne & Wear. At least Nexus are unlikely get control of the local rail network, as the Tees Valley Combined Authority would almost certainly object to it.
 

Peter0124

Established Member
Joined
20 Nov 2016
Messages
2,752
Location
Glasgow
People on Teesside get weary enough with everyone thinking that the North East=Tyneside without giving Nexus control over trains for the whole region.
I know Teeside aint quite Sunderland but I couldn't help but point this out :D
 

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
7,382
Do ScotRail still come down the Tyne Valley? I remember that they did a few years ago.

Hopefully, when the Blyth and Tyne is open, it doesn’t suffer from this.

Finally, does anyone know why the ‘Chathill Flyer’ is always a Class 156? It does get full and standing coming back from Chathill to Newcastle in the morning with a fair few getting on at Morpeth and Cramlington and I don’t think I’ve seen a Class 158 on it. I may just be unlucky.
What difference would a 158 make? Why is Chathill more worthy of a 158 than the other Northern routes?

How would diagramming a 158 every time affect the other northern diagrams?
 

Anvil1984

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,513
What difference would a 158 make? Why is Chathill more worthy of a 158 than the other Northern routes?

How would diagramming a 158 every time affect the other northern diagrams?

The morning Chathill is booked a 156, the evening one a 158 and it stays like that 90% of the time.

Seating capacity you’re right there’s no difference however the one thing that does make the Chathill worth a 158 is that the 90 mph capability, it allows time to be made up when various Intercity’s delay it at Newcastle or out the loop at Belford
 

Megafuss

Member
Joined
5 May 2018
Messages
894
Location
Spalding
Moderator note: Split from

There is a real question over whether Northern can adequately serve the North East, given it is effectively a long leg from the rest of their operations. Adding it to one of the longer distance TOCs, whilst an odd fit, could be a preferable option.
As a regular user of Northern in the North East region, I can say that the reason this week has stuck out like a sore thumb, is because, the service is generally good, certainly compared to the car crash, which is the North West.

So, I don't get the feeling Northern in the North East requires urgent action. Just a bit of TLC from time to time.

We'd all love better services, but given the state of the Metro and the general feeling that those at the top are not serious transport people, I seriously doubt NEXUS/North East Combined Authority should be trusted with it.
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
3,370
Would the existence of a Northern York – Middlesbrough / Darlington service, putting aside the question of if that's currently possible without cutting other services or abandoning 2 tph XC / TPE north of York, at least help remind Northern management that the northeastern services exist?
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,615
Would the existence of a Northern York – Middlesbrough / Darlington service, putting aside the question of if that's currently possible without cutting other services or abandoning 2 tph XC / TPE north of York, at least help remind Northern management that the northeastern services exist?
The North East Regional Director and the North East HQ needs reminding that the north east exists??
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
3,370
The North East Regional Director and the North East HQ needs reminding that the north east exists??
Hopefully not. I wasn't sure how separately run the NW / NE are (and is how separately are the services in Yorkshire managed, apart from the ones to / from Manchester?).
 

JLH4AC

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2023
Messages
184
Location
Market Rasen
Nexus is now part of the North East Combined Authority, unfortunately with previous management remaining in place. Whilst at present their jurisdiction remains Tyne & Wear, the Mayor has the power to expand that to include Northumberland and Durham without consultation should she wish.
As you can see from my last comment I am aware that Nexus is now part of the North East Mayoral Combined Authority. The mayors having so many powers and responsibilities is one of the reasons why I dislike Mayoral Combined Authorities and is likely the reason why the central government likes them so much.
What’s more worrying than the prospect of Nexus getting control of the Tyne Valley and Durham Coast is the prospect of Nexus gaining control of all buses in the full North East Combined Authority area as part of Kim McGuinness’s ‘Angel Network’ and putting every single route on yearly contracts predominantly to operators who don’t have the resources to operate them, which is what already happens with the secured routes in Tyne & Wear. At least Nexus are unlikely get control of the local rail network, as the Tees Valley Combined Authority would almost certainly object to it.
I would question the wisdom of non-metropolitan and metropolitan bus services being controlled by the same agency though it would be far from the agency to do so. Tees Valley Combined Authority not being merged into the North East Mayoral Combined Authority is another reason why I think a separate municipally owned corporation similar to the West Midlands Rail Executive is more likely than Nexus taking control of the North East train services.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
5,123
Location
County Durham
As you can see from my last comment I am aware that Nexus is now part of the North East Mayoral Combined Authority. The mayors having so many powers and responsibilities is one of the reasons why I dislike Mayoral Combined Authorities and is likely the reason why the central government likes them so much.

I would question the wisdom of non-metropolitan and metropolitan bus services being controlled by the same agency though it would be far from the agency to do so. Tees Valley Combined Authority not being merged into the North East Mayoral Combined Authority is another reason why I think a separate municipally owned corporation similar to the West Midlands Rail Executive is more likely than Nexus taking control of the North East train services.
They have far too much power. The Mayor can do just about whatever she wants without any scrutiny.

My own prediction is that rail in the North East will remain the sole responsibility of the DFT, simply as the Labour-led North East Combined Authority and the Conservative-led Tees Valley Combined Authority are unlikely to agree on enough things for a shared devolved operation to work, nor would either side accept the other having sole responsibility.
 

Royston Vasey

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
2,999
Location
Cambridge
TPE aren't really that focused on the North East either, other than the east coast main line and the Yorkshire coast.

How about absorbing it into Grand Central ;)
 

GuyGibsonVC

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2019
Messages
232
Location
Up North
I was thinking that Cramlington probably needs a few more trains a day in the future. Maybe a few TPE stops? Not sure how that would work, mind.

A lot of house building has gone on in that area and it is quite a commuter hub for Newcastle.
 

Manutd1999

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2021
Messages
549
Location
UK
My own prediction is that rail in the North East will remain the sole responsibility of the DFT, simply as the Labour-led North East Combined Authority and the Conservative-led Tees Valley Combined Authority are unlikely to agree on enough things for a shared devolved operation to work, nor would either side accept the other having sole responsibility.
I don't see why a "Transport for the North-East" body managed by representatives from both regions, wouldn't work. Andy Burnham and Andy Street showed how politicians can work together when their interests align.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,615
Hopefully not. I wasn't sure how separately run the NW / NE are (and is how separately are the services in Yorkshire managed, apart from the ones to / from Manchester?).

They also have their own separate regional management structures.
 

eastdyke

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
2,058
Location
East Midlands
TVCA [Tees Valley Combined Authority] seems to have thoughts on rowing in with both North East and York and North Yorkshire, although work on the project is paused pending clarification of rail devolution from the Starmer Government.

And also some other [but off-topic] 'nuggets' in there too.

See: REPORT TO THE TEES VALLEY COMBINED AUTHORITY CABINET - 27 SEPTEMBER 2024 - REPORT OF THE DIRECTOR OF INFRASTRUCTURE
Extract:
Rail Devolution Proposition
Detailed work on this project has been paused until there is clarity from the new
government in relation to rail devolution and proposals for the role of Mayoral
Combined Authorities. TVCA is working collaboratively with the North East
Combined Authority and the York & North Yorkshire Combined Authority to jointly
articulate our shared priorities for rail to government.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top