Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[1D54]

Even more so when it is on the incorrect thread

 

[miklcct]

Cash payment would of course still be available as it is in London - at corner shops and the likes where you pay the cash and have it loaded onto your Oyster-a-like.

This won't work in rural areas.

Plus bus companies outside London have other tickets you can buy like returns, day tickets etc

These are unnecessary complex. They should be got rid of, with singles the only ticket being available.

 

[LUYMun]

These are unnecessary complex. They should be got rid of, with singles the only ticket being available.

Why get rid of them? More often than not the Singles and Returns are proportionate for the journeys a passenger would make, with better price-per-mile when calculating both ways under a Return. Furthermore, Returns tend to reduce dwell times for otherwise £2 Single payments, especially when said Return has a QR code to scan. Day tickets also provide better value for money if a passenger takes more than one bus route.

 

[miklcct]

Why get rid of them? More often than not the Singles and Returns are proportionate for the journeys a passenger would make, with better price-per-mile when calculating both ways under a Return. Furthermore, Returns tend to reduce dwell times for otherwise £2 Single payments, especially when said Return has a QR code to scan. Day tickets also provide better value for money if a passenger takes more than one bus route.

The existence of returns penalises people who do out and back on different routes, or make triangular journeys. The same argument in rail as well.

 

[station_road]

The existence of returns penalises people who do out and back on different routes, or make triangular journeys. The same argument in rail as well.

So your answer is to get rid of them and penalise everyone instead?

 

[miklcct]

So your answer is to get rid of them and penalise everyone instead?

Of course the single needs to be reduced in price, possibly to half of the return or slightly more than half, as LNER has done.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The existence of returns penalises people who do out and back on different routes, or make triangular journeys. The same argument in rail as well.

There are Day Tickets available on many operators for this reason.

 

[stuu]

This is where capping is the answer - it sorts out multi-leg journeys and speeds up boarding for everyone

 

[Trainman40083]

This is where capping is the answer - it sorts out multi-leg journeys and speeds up boarding for everyone

Tap on, tap off, daily capping and off we go ..

 

[stevieinselby]

These are unnecessary complex. They should be got rid of, with singles the only ticket being available.

A lot of industries and businesses have loyalty schemes to reward frequent customers – why should public transport be any different?
If we want to be serious about encouraging people to give up driving and switch to public transport then we need to properly incentivise that, and giving discounted fares to people who uses buses and trains the most is a great way to do that.
Single fares only unfairly penalises people who have to change buses to reach their destination – eg, in Leeds, people living in Chapel Allerton wanting to go across town to the White Rose shopping centre have a direct bus so would only pay a single fare, where people living in other suburbs like Headingley, Kirkstall or Halton, who are travelling exactly the same distance, have to change buses in the centre and so would have to pay more under your plan.

 

[miklcct]

A lot of industries and businesses have loyalty schemes to reward frequent customers – why should public transport be any different?
If we want to be serious about encouraging people to give up driving and switch to public transport then we need to properly incentivise that, and giving discounted fares to people who uses buses and trains the most is a great way to do that.
Single fares only unfairly penalises people who have to change buses to reach their destination – eg, in Leeds, people living in Chapel Allerton wanting to go across town to the White Rose shopping centre have a direct bus so would only pay a single fare, where people living in other suburbs like Headingley, Kirkstall or Halton, who are travelling exactly the same distance, have to change buses in the centre and so would have to pay more under your plan.

Single fares with distance-based pricing will not penalise passengers who need to change buses.

If we want to be serious about encouraging people to give up driving, we need to have the SINGLE FARE lower than the marginal cost of driving, such that people will only drive when public transport can't reasonably serve the places they want to go.

In Hong Kong, most bus fares are cheaper than the fuel cost of a car alone (it is comparable to the fuel cost of a motorcycle), combined with the difficulty of parking, public transport achieves more than 80% of the market share there without a strict quota on car ownership (unlike Singapore). Bus fares are regulated by distance, but not strictly priced according to it. Some bus companies couldn't get regulatory approval to sell monthly tickets because it would unnecessarily penalise those passengers who don't travel long haul often, to the extent that they would cross subsidize long distance commuters.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Telegraph reporting the £2 fare scheme is to be scrapped completely, possibly replaced by something that incrrases gradually until the end of 2025, at which point all support ends.

Rachel Reeves to scrap bus fare cap
Rural routes at risk as the Chancellor scrambles to find savings

Paywall, however:

Rachel Reeves to scrap bus fare cap

Rural routes at risk as the Chancellor scrambles to find savings

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Edvid]

Here's what's behind the paywall:

Christopher Jasper
Transport industry editor
Szu Ping Chan
Economics Editor

11 October 2024 3:36pm BST

Rural communities are at risk of losing vital bus routes as Rachel Reeves prepares to scrap a £2 cap on fares.

The cap, introduced to encourage people to use public transport post-Covid, is to be raised or abolished outright in this month’s Budget, according to industry and Whitehall sources.

Ms Reeves has already ordered government departments to find savings as she scrambles to fill what she claims to be a £22bn black hole in the public finances.

While the impact of removing the cap, which costs the Treasury £350m a year, would most likely be marginal on short routes within cities, rural fares could jump by £10 or more.

That could leave people unable to afford to get to work, college or hospital, and reduce passenger numbers to such an extent that the future of some routes is thrown in doubt.

Silviya Barrett, the director of policy and research at the Campaign for Better Transport, said the £2 cap had breathed new life into the bus sector and should be extended, not abolished.

She said: “Taking the bus shouldn’t be a financial burden and raising the cap or scrapping it entirely could leave passengers struggling to afford travel on lifeline services.”

The Rural Services Network, which campaigns on behalf of residents of Britain’s 6,000 villages and 200 market towns, said rural poverty has depressed car ownership and left people reliant on the bus, many of whom will be left isolated if fares jump or services are cut.

Bus operators are understood to be largely resigned to the £2 cap being abandoned when it expires in December, and are pressing for it to be raised to no more than £2.50.

That would have little impact on the affordability of urban routes, it is argued, as nationwide bus prices countrywide averaged £2.47 before the cap was introduced in January 2023.

However, industry sources believe the ceiling will most likely be kept at that level for six months before being raised to £3 and then scrapped at the end of 2025.

While the Department for Transport (DfT) is said to favour a staged withdrawal, there are also concerns the Treasury could insist on abolishing the cap outright in this month’s Budget.

The Confederation of Passenger Transport, which represents a UK bus sector that carries 10m passengers a day, said it is vital that such a cliff-edge scenario be avoided.

Alison Edwards, its policy director, said: “Removing the cap overnight would be catastrophic for passengers and would have a knock-on effect on bus services.”

Ms Edwards said that the removal of the cap would also weigh heavily on discretionary travel such as bus-based tourism to the countryside and coast, which has seen a huge resurgence since Covid.

In North Yorkshire, where bus travel jumped 11pc last year, the cap has been credited with maintaining the viability of a host of rural routes. They include the Coastliner 840 service from Leeds to Whitby, which has been voted the most scenic in the UK.

If the cap is to be removed, Ms Edwards said it should be replaced with other measures to ease the burden on passengers, such as support for fares for younger people.

The House of Lords debated the cap last week, with Labour transport spokeswoman Baroness Blake hinting that the Government may put the onus on councils to fund fares, just as authorities in cities including London and Manchester already do.

She said: “The money going to local authorities is not ring-fenced; they are able to look at different schemes for their particular localities.”

The Department for Transport declined to comment.

 

[takno]

Here's what's behind the paywall:

So essentially guesswork based on the same information everybody else has then? It's a worthwhile article since it's bringing the issue to a wider audience (albeit an audience which is 80% bus pass holders anyway), but it's not exactly news for anybody who's been paying attention.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So essentially guesswork based on the same information everybody else has then? It's a worthwhile article since it's bringing the issue to a wider audience (albeit an audience which is 80% bus pass holders anyway), but it's not exactly news for anybody who's been paying attention.

Given the timing, I suspect it is a strategic leak to see what, if any, reaction this story gets, in advance of the budget later this month. Politicians do this regularly to test the waters of anything remotely controversial, and then can quickly deny it is official policy when there's an uproar.

 

[DDB]

I think it reinforces my earlier point that this is high enough profile politically that it will be addressed directly in the budget. This means we will find out in the budget but also means we won't find out before the budget.

 

[duncombec]

Here's what's behind the paywall:

"...is to be raised or abolished..." Newsflash #1: Newspaper provides misleading headline when story immediately says something different!

...rural fares could jump by £10 or more...

How many fares will that take into account... Coastliner singles from Leeds to Whitby? Newsflash #2: Newspaper picks highest possible gap whilst failing to note about 99% of fares won't fit that statement.

However, industry sources believe the ceiling will most likely be kept at that level for six months before being raised to £3 and then scrapped at the end of 2025

So exactly what the Conservatives (usually supported by the Telegraph) planned until Rishi found some money down the back of the HS2 sofa, then?

I think it reinforces my earlier point that this is high enough profile politically that it will be addressed directly in the budget. This means we will find out in the budget but also means we won't find out before the budget.

Louise Haigh said as much in Transport questions in Parliament yesterday.

 

[yorksrob]

The sooner they get this budget over with and we actually get to find out what's in it, the better.

 

[ChrisC]

How many fares will that take into account... Coastliner singles from Leeds to Whitby? Newsflash #2: Newspaper picks highest possible gap whilst failing to note about 99% of fares won't fit that statement.

I agree that with the exception of routes like the Coastliner there will not be many single fares priced over £10. However, in many rural areas a single fare into the nearest town can be over £5 resulting in a return trip being in excess of £10. From where I live into a town 7 miles away, before the £2 cap, the cheapest return fare was day ticket at £7.90, but over the last 2 years that day ticket has now risen to £9.50.

 

[gc4946]

Confederation of Passenger Transport asked KPMG to study alternatives to the £2 fare cap

https://www.cpt-uk.org/media/oxgjxg1b/crt152726a_cpt_study-on-alternatives-to-the-national-fare-cap_130224_final.pdf

Scenarios outlined on page 29 produced high benefit-cost ratios (BCR) from 1.8 (local concession travel for certain groups, non-metropolitan regions) to the highest, 5.3 (single fare cap, non-metropolitan regions), in other words for every £1 spent the economic benefits will be from £1.80 to £5.30.

Central government subsidy of bus fares gives more bang for your buck and produces wider economic (and social) benefits than the benefit-cost ratio for HS2 (between 1.4 and 1.7 for phase 1, between 1.8-2.3 for full network, reported in the House of Lords, 2015) https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldeconaf/134/13412.htm

I hope the Treasury will consider the wider implications of the fare cap. £350 million a year subsidy is small change in the scheme of things and provides huge economic and social benefits.

 

[joieman]

I hope the Treasury will consider the wider implications of the fare cap. £350 million a year subsidy is small change in the scheme of things and provides huge economic and social benefits.

And if they fail to take action, the adverse impact on bus patronage will be immediate.

I can't be the only one who thinks this new government needs to get its act together.

 

[Blindtraveler]

You are not. For my money. This government is the worst we've had in a while and given what went before that saying something

 

[820KDV]

I think this bit of the article is interesting:

The House of Lords debated the cap last week, with Labour transport spokeswoman Baroness Blake hinting that the Government may put the onus on councils to fund fares, just as authorities in cities including London and Manchester already do.

She said: “The money going to local authorities is not ring-fenced; they are able to look at different schemes for their particular localities.”

At a recent meeting for Local Transport officers the DfT said that they had submitted all of the funding requests from the 2024 BSIPs to the Treasury for consideration. I wonder, based on Baroness Blake's comment, whether each Authority will get a lump sum and be told to select items from their BSIP list, and/or fund a fare cap. That could lead to interesting situations in my area where many bus journeys are cross boundary and passengers could end paying £2 (or any other caped amount) one way and full commercial fares to return home (or vice-versa).

A more concerning thought arising from the comment that money isn't ring-fenced, and could therefore be spent on something other than transport, or worse still, offering free car parking in town centres!

 

[johncrossley]

You are not. For my money. This government is the worst we've had in a while and given what went before that saying something

If you just focus on buses, ignoring other aspects of the first 101 days of the new government, they have already announced radical proposals, in line with their manifesto pledge on buses.

 

[takno]

You are not. For my money. This government is the worst we've had in a while and given what went before that saying something

The previous government cobbled together this whole scheme at the last minute, and have been renewing it at the last minute and dribs and drabs ever since. It seems weird to get outraged that this government wants to do a decent and systematic review of spending, and as a result has made it clear when the announcement will come. Perhaps it would be better to wait until the 30th before you start declaring the end of days and distributing the koolaid.

 

[JonathanH]

I can't be the only one who thinks this new government needs to get its act together.

The new government is just a bit clumsy and hasn't been able to bring an immediate feel good factor, but the sad reality is that there are difficult decisions to be made because the country has been operating outside its means for so long, and everything has to be reviewed.

The new government have been set up by the previous one to be forced to take these decisions and look bad. There are no two ways about it.

While it has been great to have the opportunity of £2 bus fares, it falls into the bracket of things where targeting help on those who are less well off would be a better spend of that money.

 

[stevieinselby]

Telegraph reporting the £2 fare scheme is to be scrapped completely, possibly replaced by something that incrrases gradually until the end of 2025, at which point all support ends.

What's the betting they penned two articles – the other one slamming Reeves for wastefully continuing the bus fares cap at vast public expense – and waited to see which way the wind was blowing before they published one of them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2024 ==

Single fares with distance-based pricing will not penalise passengers who need to change buses.

Distance-based pricing is nonsensical for buses, and doesn't reflect the cost of operation.
For example, I can get a bus into York from Selby, which takes about 50 minutes to cover a distance of 14.7 miles by road (12.2 miles in a straight line).
Or I can get a bus that meanders from one side of York to the other, also taking 50 minutes to cover a distance of 7.1 miles by road (3.9 miles in a straight line).
Each one requires one bus and one driver for the journey, the only difference is the fuel, which is likely to be lower on the suburban service but not as low as half because urban driving gets you a lower mpg.

If the operating costs of the two services are similar, how could you justify charging double for one route (or 3× if you're going for straight line distance)?

If you go for road miles, you would also get a lot of upset from passengers finding that their bus taking detours into other villages or districts not only costs them time but costs them tangible higher fares, as well as the potential for confusion if the same journey costs more or less at different times of day if the route has variations.

Single fares only would increase the number of people making very short journeys (that they would currently walk), and so the additional stops needed plus the need for every passenger to state their exact destination and pay a fare would increase dwell times and extend the journey time, to everyone's detriment. All of this would make the service significantly less attractive to regular users and especially to people who travel primarily or wholly by bus.

 

[johncrossley]

Distance-based pricing is nonsensical for buses, and doesn't reflect the cost of operation.

The main reason for flat fares is for simplicity, making ticketing easy, particularly when it comes to off bus sales. A flat fare over a wide region requires considerable subsidy. Therefore you only tend to get flat fares within a single city or small region. Therefore zonal fares have historically been the tool for ticketing in a larger region. Modern technology such as tap in tap out has made distance based fares easier to implement.

plus the need for every passenger to state their exact destination and pay a fare would increase dwell times and extend the journey time, to everyone's detriment.

You are assuming that drivers are the only way of buying a single ticket. It is quite possible to have a zonal or distance based fare system without buying a ticket from the driver. In many regions and cities around the world, buying a ticket from the driver isn't even possible.

 

[greenline712]

Back in the day, and I do mean the 1970s (!) .... LCBS restructured fares in such a way that passengers who travelled from A to B via a longer journey were charged the same as passengers travelling from A to B via a shorter journey.

Think 406/410/411/414 between Reigate and Redhill ... 425/430/447 were longer routes, but now didn't have a fare penalty .... the short fare predominated. There were lots of other examples ... think Uxbridge-Watford, 321 (short) vs 347 (longer).

We (the crews) all thought it was a good idea ... and I daresay the passengers liked it as well!!!

 

[stuu]

£350m is very little in the grand scheme of things, increasing the cap to £2.50 and then £3 would be far more sensible