Blackwater Valley Public transport improvements.

[Fazaar1889]

Just drove in Ash for the first time in a while, middle of a working day, traffic absolutely everywhere. I only saw 1 bus on my entire journey and very few people at the bus stop.

It is clear that there area is severely underserved and choked by traffic. What could be done to improve the area? Trams? More services? More rail? Rebuttals to these could be space, where would you put the tram. Increasing services is limited by the busy SWML and North Downs line thus more services isn't realistic. Again with more rail, where would you put them?

A previous thread about this is 8 years old and rather optimistic about CR2

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rley-farnham-area-my-idea-future-rail.125846/

More buses may not be ideal considering the amount of traffic and that every road is a tight country lane.

What can be done to improve the situation?

 

[Roger1973]

Oh dear.

I live near Reading now, although did live in the area for a while. I think there have been ideas floating and sinking for 20 years or more now. I have an idea there was a fairly hefty study done in the mid 00's which sank without trace when the economic whatnot hit the fan in 2008.

Camberley was historically the boundary between Thames Valley buses (from the north) and Aldershot and District buses (from other directions) and joining the bits together didn't really improve when they got merged in to Alder Valley, and even now most services apart from the Yateley - Aldershot route 3 still terminate at Camberley, or might get as far north as The Meadows.

And the Basingstoke - Hook - Camberley route seems to have disappeared east of Hook.

The area being shared between three counties, and Berkshire now having small unitary councils with limited budgets, does not help at all.

There appears to be a Blackwater Valley Advisory Committee for Public Transport, which looks like it involves councillors and others from the respective councils. But any action is going to require money, and agreement between the respective councils about it all.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Oh dear.

I live near Reading now, although did live in the area for a while. I think there have been ideas floating and sinking for 20 years or more now. I have an idea there was a fairly hefty study done in the mid 00's which sank without trace when the economic whatnot hit the fan in 2008.

Do you have a link for this? See what they were cooking up.

There appears to be a Blackwater Valley Advisory Committee for Public Transport, which looks like it involves councillors and others from the respective councils. But any action is going to require money, and agreement between the respective councils about it all.

Considering the last meeting was in June 2023, they don't appear to be a serious committee.

 

[Roger1973]

Do you have a link for this? See what they were cooking up.

There's the Blackwater Valley Sub-Regional Study (114 pages of PDF) from 2003 but seems to be wider ranging than transport.

I may be thinking of something that was part of the Thames Valley Multi Modal Study which doesn't seem to be online.

Or a it may have been that the study / report was proposed but didn't quite get as far as being commissioned.

 

[BankQuayLowLvl]

Lets throw some stuff at the wall. Without knowing the area well it seems that Aldershot-Farnborough might be the key missing connection.

How about a new chord from Aldershot to North Camp allowing direct Aldershot/Farnham to Farnborough/Blackwater services, extending to Reading.

If this was impossible for whatever reason, a new chord west of Ascot would also allow Farnham-Reading services via Bracknell - though this doesn't improve connections within the Valley.

For both options running up from Alton might be necessary for terminating capacity - or utilising the third platform at Aldershot, though this prevents serving Farnham.

Alternatively, establishing a core fast bus network via some form of bus priority measures on the A325 might provide benefit. Alternative routes would be Queens Ave through Aldershot Camp, Trenchard Way around the airfield, or bus gates on Alexandra Road. This could form the spine of a Blackwater Valley system extending north via Blackwater and Frimley/Camberley, and south to Farnham and Ash. Bus gates on Frimley High Street? Some messing around with the one way system in Farnham? The possibilities are most definitely not endless!

 

[zwk500]

I did suggest at one point building a chord from Aldershot to North Camp, and another bascially under the M3 J4 to allow the Ash Vale - Frimley section to close, with all services diverted via a new double-decker Farnborough station with platforms on all 6 lines where they intersected.
This would have left Ash Vale with only the london services, but provided Farnborough with a much better connected set of stations with services to Ascot, Reading, Aldershot, Guildford, London and Basingstoke from the same station.
However, costs and the extra walking distance from existing stations killed the idea.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Alternatively, establishing a core fast bus network via some form of bus priority measures on the A325 might provide benefit. Alternative routes would be Queens Ave through Aldershot Camp, Trenchard Way around the airfield, or bus gates on Alexandra Road. This could form the spine of a Blackwater Valley system extending north via Blackwater and Frimley/Camberley, and south to Farnham and Ash. Bus gates on Frimley High Street? Some messing around with the one way system in Farnham? The possibilities are most definitely not endless!

Bus priority on the A331 (I assume you mean A331) would make a lot of sense, I haven't seen a bus on there, my only problem is the roads in the settlements themselves, they're all incredibly small with high volumes of traffic, there just isn't enough space for the buses themselves as well as a high enough frequency/reliability. Furthermore, much of the housing developments have American Style road designs, meaning buses would take far longer to reach a good catchment area of passengers.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

I did suggest at one point building a chord from Aldershot to North Camp, and another bascially under the M3 J4 to allow the Ash Vale - Frimley section to close, with all services diverted via a new double-decker Farnborough station with platforms on all 6 lines where they intersected.
This would have left Ash Vale with only the london services, but provided Farnborough with a much better connected set of stations with services to Ascot, Reading, Aldershot, Guildford, London and Basingstoke from the same station.
However, costs and the extra walking distance from existing stations killed the idea.

The thing about improving the services between all the stations is that a lot of the housing is quite far from the station, meaning that very few people would walk it and would rather take the car, hence the massive carparks around the stations. Local transport is absoluely needed to solve the last mile problem between the stations and passengers' homes.

I wonder how much of an effect there would be if we added more stations along the routes? Would services be greatly impacted?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

I suppose you could bulldoze a lot of farnborough considering it's largely car parks and 60s designs

 

[zwk500]

The thing about improving the services between all the stations is that a lot of the housing is quite far from the station, meaning that very few people would walk it and would rather take the car, hence the massive carparks around the stations. Local transport is absoluely needed to solve the last mile problem between the stations and passengers' homes.

First/last mile is certainly a problem but not an unsolvable one. Provide better direct footpath/cycle links, provide an e-bike hire scheme, and provide decent bike facilities at the stations and people will switch away from cars, especially at current station car park rates!

I wonder how much of an effect there would be if we added more stations along the routes? Would services be greatly impacted?

1 or 2 stations you may get away with, although I think Guildford West would likely take 1 of those. Any more and you'd need to look at what the unit times are between Wokingham and Reading and Back to understand the impact.
The provision of Battery units with limited 3rd rail extensions at the margins would also help if you did want to add stations. Although I would say Farnborough's probably got enough in close proximity as it is.

I suppose you could bulldoze a lot of farnborough considering it's largely car parks and 60s designs

Crap architecture you may think it, but buying out all those houses won't be cheap.

 

[wastedlife]

Bus priority on the A331 (I assume you mean A331) would make a lot of sense, I haven't seen a bus on there, my only problem is the roads in the settlements themselves, they're all incredibly small with high volumes of traffic, there just isn't enough space for the buses themselves as well as a high enough frequency/reliability. Furthermore, much of the housing developments have American Style road designs, meaning buses would take far longer to reach a good catchment area of passengers.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

The A331 is the dual carriageway from the Hog's Back to the M3, dating from about 1994, and all the junctions are pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I can't see a bus route down the A331 being successful, as it would have to do loops off each exit to go to anywhere worth going to. The A325 does have some limited bus priority between the Ship pub and Farnborough town centre, and it is relatively easy to identify some bottlenecks through Farnborough (Highgate Lane/railway bridge/Clockhouse etc) that have expensive and disruptive solutions.

I'm not sure there actually is a solution to this problem that is going to be solved by public transport or tinkering with rail layouts. Ultimately, it is an affluent area (Aldershot excepted) with plenty of employment, retail and many housing developments over the last 50-70 years adding to the demand on infrastructure. The main rail demand is London commuting and that aside, most households can afford multiple cars - so how would you make a (for example) Farnborough to Farnham journey attractive on public transport? My mother considered it an adventure to take the no 1 bus (from basically outside her house) a mile into Farnborough town centre. The price paid for the convenience of the car is that the average speed is lower than it *should* be, but then I compare traffic speeds with SW London/Kingston area and the Blackwater Valley isn't doing that badly.

 

[Fazaar1889]

The A331 is the dual carriageway from the Hog's Back to the M3, dating from about 1994, and all the junctions are pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I can't see a bus route down the A331 being successful, as it would have to do loops off each exit to go to anywhere worth going to. The A325 does have some limited bus priority between the Ship pub and Farnborough town centre, and it is relatively easy to identify some bottlenecks through Farnborough (Highgate Lane/railway bridge/Clockhouse etc) that have expensive and disruptive solutions.

My mistake, Google maps wasn't showing me where the A325 is. Yes, that makes sense.

I'm not sure there actually is a solution to this problem that is going to be solved by public transport or tinkering with rail layouts. Ultimately, it is an affluent area (Aldershot excepted) with plenty of employment, retail and many housing developments over the last 50-70 years adding to the demand on infrastructure. The main rail demand is London commuting and that aside, most households can afford multiple cars - so how would you make a (for example) Farnborough to Farnham journey attractive on public transport? My mother considered it an adventure to take the no 1 bus (from basically outside her house) a mile into Farnborough town centre. The price paid for the convenience of the car is that the average speed is lower than it *should* be, but then I compare traffic speeds with SW London/Kingston area and the Blackwater Valley isn't doing that badly.

Yeah, there's a mindset against buses. Localised public transport should be more attractive and unfortunately, buses are viewed only for lower classes and as such won't be utilised. Permanent trams are more likely to make a change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

First/last mile is certainly a problem but not an unsolvable one. Provide better direct footpath/cycle links, provide an e-bike hire scheme, and provide decent bike facilities at the stations and people will switch away from cars, especially at current station car park rates!

A large number of residents are middle aged and wouldn't view bikes as a viable alternative unfortunately...

1 or 2 stations you may get away with, although I think Guildford West would likely take 1 of those. Any more and you'd need to look at what the unit times are between Wokingham and Reading and Back to understand the impact.
The provision of Battery units with limited 3rd rail extensions at the margins would also help if you did want to add stations. Although I would say Farnborough's probably got enough in close proximity as it is.

Network rail informed me that Guildford West isn't happening until the council finds funding, which is unlikely anytime soon, there's a 200m deficit iirc.

Crap architecture you may think it, but buying out all those houses won't be cheap.

Unfortunately...

 

[cactustwirly]

Bus priority on the A331 (I assume you mean A331) would make a lot of sense, I haven't seen a bus on there, my only problem is the roads in the settlements themselves, they're all incredibly small with high volumes of traffic, there just isn't enough space for the buses themselves as well as a high enough frequency/reliability. Furthermore, much of the housing developments have American Style road designs, meaning buses would take far longer to reach a good catchment area of passengers.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==


The thing about improving the services between all the stations is that a lot of the housing is quite far from the station, meaning that very few people would walk it and would rather take the car, hence the massive carparks around the stations. Local transport is absoluely needed to solve the last mile problem between the stations and passengers' homes.

I wonder how much of an effect there would be if we added more stations along the routes? Would services be greatly impacted?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

I suppose you could bulldoze a lot of farnborough considering it's largely car parks and 60s designs

Why does bus priority on the A331 make sense?
It's not exactly gridlocked at the moment
Surely the buses would go via Farnborough and not bypass it anyway?

 

[zwk500]

A large number of residents are middle aged and wouldn't view bikes as a viable alternative unfortunately...

Middle aged men on a health kick are among the most active on bikes, in my experience! Granted I haven't lived in suburban Surrey/Hants but I have lived in a Sussex Village which is comparable.

Network rail informed me that Guildford West isn't happening until the council finds funding, which is unlikely anytime soon, there's a 200m deficit iirc.

Oh fair. It's the station I see as much more likely to happen though, so if that's got a 200m funding gap (how?!, are you sure it's not £20m which is about the going rate for a double track station) then any others are going to be hopeless.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Middle aged men on a health kick are among the most active on bikes, in my experience! Granted I haven't lived in suburban Surrey/Hants but I have lived in a Sussex Village which is comparable.

Sure but women make 50% of the population and are much more likely to drive. I'm a young working man and I cycle to and from work. The large majority of town drivers are middle aged women.

Oh fair. It's the station I see as much more likely to happen though, so if that's got a 200m funding gap (how?!, are you sure it's not £20m which is about the going rate for a double track station) then any others are going to be hopeless.

£200m total council deficit, not just the station. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

Why does bus priority on the A331 make sense?
It's not exactly gridlocked at the moment
Surely the buses would go via Farnborough and not bypass it anyway?

Sorry, Google maps was showing me where the a325 was so I misunderstood.

 

[telstarbox]

Women are often doing more complex 'trip chaining' journeys as well (school run, shopping, caring for elderly parents) which lend themselves to the car.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's a difficult area to serve due to the nature of the settlements and the infrastructure (as you described), but one initial light rail corridor would be worth looking into.

Something like Bracknell - Wildridings - Great Hollands - Sandhurst - College Town - the Meadows shopping centre - Frimley Park hospital - Farnborough Green - Farnborough Main station and town centre - Aldershot town centre and station would be a decent initial option (and would be perhaps open for a contribution of regeneration funding, because Great Hollands isn't wealthy and there are patches of deprivation in Rushmoor district too).