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Revenue Protection at Brighton

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MrJeeves

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I don't know what the allowable connection time is at Brighton, 10', 15'?
It used to be 10 minutes, but there was an override down to 4 mins when changing between two Southern trains. I assume this was in place for a long time, perhaps when Brighton had more long-distance trains and non-GTR operators, like GWR, SWR and even CrossCountry.

Since May, when I last checked this and posted it on this thread, this 4 mins override has disappeared and it is now 10 minutes flat for any connections at Brighton. Maybe related to this, maybe just an unrelated change, but I have my doubts :p
 
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But don't worry! There are all these fantastic new screens on 377s advertising "Better, Faster, Smoother" on the coastways since a timetable change - GTR would never lie about something.
 

MrJeeves

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But don't worry! There are all these fantastic new screens on 377s advertising "Better, Faster, Smoother" on the coastways since a timetable change - GTR would never lie about something.
Hey, they are "better, smoother and faster", provided you're not changing at Brighton, or travelling on a Sunday!
 
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Hey, they are "better, smoother and faster", provided you're not changing at Brighton, or travelling on a Sunday!
They are so much "better, smoother and faster" that upon my next season ticket change I will no longer be buying from my closest station on the west coastway, and will now be getting a cheaper one from Brighton as I simply refuse to bother with that lame imitation of Checkpoint Charlie.
 

dontteleport

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I'm arriving about 4.30pm on Monday with a perfectly valid ticket. What problems am I gonna face going through the barriers, especially as I'll have a large suitcase? I'm exiting, not changing!
Probably none apart from a slight delay at the gateline as various people's tickets are rejected and scrutinised. When not connecting you'll be directed straight to the gates, then if your ticket is rejected by those, revenue tend to swoop in and have a look.
 

williamn

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Probably none apart from a slight delay at the gateline as various people's tickets are rejected and scrutinised. When not connecting you'll be directed straight to the gates, then if your ticket is rejected by those, revenue tend to swoop in and have a look.
Not the case this morning - ticket rejected and has the most cursory glance before being waved through, only for the same to happen as I went back in. I suspect they only care if you don’t have a ticket at all.
 
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Based on these expectations of the system being made potentially permanent, does anyone think they will maybe get some permanent barriers to fully split the station, maybe with some gates that staff can open in cases where trains depart from other platforms which they are not usually assigned to (E.G. a West Coastway train leaving from Platform 3 rather than 1 or 2, with the change being made at very short notice, with an equivalent from Platform 6 to Platform 7). By 'barriers', I'm kinda thinking ones akin to the ones at London Victoria which separtate the Southern Platforms from the Gatwick Express platforms (which are there for a good reason, unlike the ones at Brighton there to annoy people and make GTR extra money with a greater chance of people getting fined).

I have thought however a potential solution to the problem of fare evasion could be to install ticket barriers at all coastway stations. While that may seem unworkable with staffing levels, a way you could do would be to use camera systems like at Lancing on platform 1, where if your ticket rejects, you can put it under a camera, and someone is keeping an eye on it, and they can see if the ticket they are being shown is valid, and if so, they can virtually open the barrier. In the longer term, you could expand that sort of technology to more stations, and have a dedicated control room so they could simultaneously manage multiple stations and deal with such incidents. That task could also be done by any staff who are present at the station, such as maybe some staff in a ticket office, but who would have the ability to refer it on to a central office. The only time when the barriers would be left open would be if there are insufficient staff available to monitor all stations, in which case any staff that are available are instructed to primarily focus on the busiest stations. If you did that, that would mean significantly fewer people would be able to even access a train without a ticket, so that could help solve the problem that these officers are trying to deal with at Brighton.

Stations I would suggest for such a system would include Aldrington, Fishersgate, Southwick, East Worthing, and maybe some stations further east but likely not a top priority immediately. Similarly on the East Coastway line, those stations would include London Road, Moulescoomb, and maybe all of the stations on the Seaford and Eastbourne lines where ticket barriers are not currently installed.
 
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Sonic1234

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The problem with unmanned barriers is the response time. Currently, these have to be manned within the station and the response times can leave a lot to be desired (try the unmanned exit at East Croydon - half the time the intercom isn't answered). A call centre response will be even slower. GTR have a policy of rejecting all Advance tickets, so potentially a lot of people will need assistance. Barriers rarely handle things like break of journey well too.

Unmanned barriers are even more inviting for people to push through. TfL have tried increasing the barrier strength to stop this, but the type of people who push through barriers tend not to be lacking in strength or fitness (or willingness to have a fight, verbal or otherwise).

Unfortunately, a lot of revenue protection is irritating for those who pay the fare, punishing for those who make a mistake and does very little for those determined not to pay.
 

Sonic1234

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I don't think this is universal anymore, I've had advances work on GTR gates quite a bit
Hopefully they're seeing the error of their ways. A lot of places still give "seek assistance" on Advances, even busy stations like East Croydon and Victoria. Southern confirmed their policy to reject all Advances to me in response to a complaint, although this was several years ago now.
 

Recessio

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Based on these expectations of the system being made potentially permanent, does anyone think they will maybe get some permanent barriers to fully split the station, maybe with some gates that staff can open in cases where trains depart from other platforms which they are not usually assigned to (E.G. a West Coastway train leaving from Platform 3 rather than 1 or 2, with the change being made at very short notice, with an equivalent from Platform 6 to Platform 7). By 'barriers', I'm kinda thinking ones akin to the ones at London Victoria which separtate the Southern Platforms from the Gatwick Express platforms (which are there for a good reason, unlike the ones at Brighton there to annoy people and make GTR extra money with a greater chance of people getting fined).

I have thought however a potential solution to the problem of fare evasion could be to install ticket barriers at all coastway stations. While that may seem unworkable with staffing levels, a way you could do would be to use camera systems like at Lancing on platform 1, where if your ticket rejects, you can put it under a camera, and someone is keeping an eye on it, and they can see if the ticket they are being shown is valid, and if so, they can virtually open the barrier. In the longer term, you could expand that sort of technology to more stations, and have a dedicated control room so they could simultaneously manage multiple stations and deal with such incidents. That task could also be done by any staff who are present at the station, such as maybe some staff in a ticket office, but who would have the ability to refer it on to a central office. The only time when the barriers would be left open would be if there are insufficient staff available to monitor all stations, in which case any staff that are available are instructed to primarily focus on the busiest stations. If you did that, that would mean significantly fewer people would be able to even access a train without a ticket, so that could help solve the problem that these officers are trying to deal with at Brighton.

Stations I would suggest for such a system would include Aldrington, Fishersgate, Southwick, East Worthing, and maybe some stations further east but likely not a top priority immediately. Similarly on the East Coastway line, those stations would include London Road, Moulescoomb, and maybe all of the stations on the Seaford and Eastbourne lines where ticket barriers are not currently installed.

Seaford station also doesn't really have anywhere good to install the barrier, or you'd have to chop the ticket office in half.
 

Flange Squeal

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Unmanned barriers are even more inviting for people to push through. TfL have tried increasing the barrier strength to stop this, but the type of people who push through barriers tend not to be lacking in strength or fitness (or willingness to have a fight, verbal or otherwise).
I’m guessing there is also an emergency open button and/or a maximum strength barriers can be set at, to enable people to get through them should there be an emergency at a station?
 

Kite159

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Unmanned remoted controlled barriers simply don't work, those customers whom think payment is optional will simply push through, knowing the odds of getting caught are low.

I was at Crawley earlier in the year waiting for a train to depart for a photo and watched at least half a dozen passengers barging through the unmanned remoted controlled barriers on the down platform without a care in the world.

And barriers are only good at saying a ticket is valid at that particular station, not necessary for the journey that person is undertaking. For example, the barriers at Brighton will quite happily open if someone presents a ticket to say Hove but won't stop that passenger remaining on board the Southampton train to one of the unbarriered stations on the West Coastway etc.
 

Krokodil

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I’m guessing there is also an emergency open button and/or a maximum strength barriers can be set at, to enable people to get through them should there be an emergency at a station?
Both. A plunger the staff can activate in the event of severe overcrowding, and each gate can be forced open (sounding a brief alarm to alert the staff).
 

Sonic1234

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I’m guessing there is also an emergency open button
Yes, to exit the station. It's there to release the gates to evacuate the station. There isn't an equivalent button to enter a station.

The existence of this button is very useful to know about if you use paper tickets in TfL-land, who can leave gates unattended because everyone uses contactless, right?
 

Benjwri

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Yes, to exit the station. It's there to release the gates to evacuate the station. There isn't an equivalent button to enter a station.

The existence of this button is very useful to know about if you use paper tickets in TfL-land, who can leave gates unattended because everyone uses contactless, right?
Although this is something that shouldn't happen, and if a complaint is made the believe the station will often get in a lot of trouble.
 
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To clarify, while response times could be an issue, under such a hypothetical scenario in which you did have such a system, it would need to be accompanied by an increase in staffing level on those intercom systens, so that way you can virtually guarantee that someone will be officially required to answer in due course. The way it would likely work is that you could have 1 person on duty for Aldrington, 1 for Fishersgate, 1 for Southwick, and so on, just like you have people on duty on gatelines at the moment. During busier times, you would have extra cameras, so you could have extra people on duty to meet the demand. When no one is available to be on duty, at that point the gatelines are open at the quieter stations, any available staff woould be assigned to busier stations. I have thought though how many staff would be needed for such a system to adequately function could be a problem.

I obviously understand full well it won't be 100% successful, and it really was just a thought overall, but in general, more stations could do with barriers, or at the very least redistributing some of the revenue protection staff to stations where fare evasion starts from, including Aldrington (from which some post on this forum states some people effectively use it as a virtual "exit" to Hove station), Fishersgate, Southwick and East Worthing. Considering you can consider them the root cause of the problem of people using those stations and the fact they are both currently completely unstaffed, having more measures in place there could reduce the number of people who enter Brighton with either no tickets or invalid tickets in the first place
 
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Aldrington would not have the space for a WAG, as would many of the other smaller un-gated stations. Not to mention the benefit cost ratio being negative.
 

infobleep

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I don't know what the allowable connection time is at Brighton, 10', 15'? but if your train in is delayed and you miss the next one, then delay repay might be in order, but I doubt that's the case if revenue hold you up and you miss your connection. So either the connection mimimum should be increased, or you should be able to claim delay repay. If it's the latter that would concentrate minds on getting pax to their connection and not hold them up.
If the cause of you missing your train is not your fault and is the fault of the railway, delay repay is due.

Southern to Southern branded trains have a connection time of 4 minutes. If the timetable has this time at any point, then that is the connection time you are allowed to make use of to change trains.

Ignore the above as it is wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It used to be 10 minutes, but there was an override down to 4 mins when changing between two Southern trains. I assume this was in place for a long time, perhaps when Brighton had more long-distance trains and non-GTR operators, like GWR, SWR and even CrossCountry.

Since May, when I last checked this and posted it on this thread, this 4 mins override has disappeared and it is now 10 minutes flat for any connections at Brighton. Maybe related to this, maybe just an unrelated change, but I have my doubts :p
So are there any connections that are now missed due to the increase to 10 minutes and what is the additional journey time as a result?

If I am a regular traveller I think 10 minutes is too long. I think 6 minutes is ample time.

At Gatwick Airport the official connection is 10 minutes for Southern or Thameslink branded trains to Great Western Railway trains.

When travelling from Haywards Heath I should get the x01 or x31 for most of the day. However I usually get the x12 or x42. That is 11 mijutes later. It doesn't officially connect to the x29 or x59 at Gatwick Airport, but most of the time I can make the train. So the time I save is greater than the occasions where I am delayed by 30 minutes. A 30 minute delay equates to the time of 3 trains departing later and I get many more connecting trains ok than 3.

So as I say, 10 minutes is too long if you are a regular.
 
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Realistically without the revenue crap, you can very easily do 2-3 min connections with a brisk walk.
 

nanstallon

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They won't let you - I've tried. If they wanted to be remotely customer friendly they could implement a separate 'lane' for connecting passengers, but clearly they want everyone to use ticket gates because the contract staff aren't really qualified to look at tickets.
Apart from the police, does any other industry treat its customers as the enemy?
 

Sonic1234

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Apart from the police, does any other industry treat its customers as the enemy?
There's a belief in public transport that its customers are captive. The only reason you're on the bus or train is because you either have no other way of making the journey, or the alternatives are even more intolerable.

Try complaining to a bus company and see what response you get, if any. They know if you didn't have to be on the bus, you wouldn't be. Train companies generally tend to be a bit better, because people will give the train a go.

It's a shame public transport has this image, and it's been internalised by the companies.

Money is driving the TOCs, under direction from the DfT. They're not concerned about market share, eco objectives, traffic congestion etc. If GTR make more money from penalty fares, settlements and increased ticket sales (because you can't get away with it) compared to the staffing costs, lost business (fare payers who can't be bothered with the fuss), delay repay claims and customer relations costs the situation at Brighton will continue. If not, it won't.
 

infobleep

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There's a belief in public transport that its customers are captive. The only reason you're on the bus or train is because you either have no other way of making the journey, or the alternatives are even more intolerable.

Try complaining to a bus company and see what response you get, if any. They know if you didn't have to be on the bus, you wouldn't be. Train companies generally tend to be a bit better, because people will give the train a go.

It's a shame public transport has this image, and it's been internalised by the companies.

Money is driving the TOCs, under direction from the DfT. They're not concerned about market share, eco objectives, traffic congestion etc. If GTR make more money from penalty fares, settlements and increased ticket sales (because you can't get away with it) compared to the staffing costs, lost business (fare payers who can't be bothered with the fuss), delay repay claims and customer relations costs the situation at Brighton will continue. If not, it won't.
Not everyone chooses public transport because they have no choice.

I could finish learning to drive and own a car but my public transport costs are less than the car ownership costs so the incentive isn't there.

It costs me £4 to get to and from Guildford to Kingston upon Thames by bus, when I need to go to an office. Bargain. No car could match that.

The situation at Brighton is an annoying one, though, if you are a regular commuter. I don't know why they don't just leave the barriers up all the time to stop people switching platforms more easily. Make them always enter and leave the gateline, if it's so important to them.

I do suspect there might be lunch breaks and tea breaks. May be there are regular times every day and if you travel through Brighton often enough, you will get to know them.

I've certainly come across this elsewhere. One usually only notices such patterns when they travel regularly, and to travel regularly, where ticket barriers exist, one needs to have a ticket or they will get caught without one.
 
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Not everyone chooses public transport because they have no choice.

I could finish learning to drive and own a car but my public transport costs are less than the car ownership costs so the incentive isn't there.

It costs me £4 to get to and from Guildford to Kingston upon Thames by bus, when I need to go to an office. Bargain. No car could match that.

The situation at Brighton is an annoying one, though, if you are a regular commuter. I don't know why they don't just leave the barriers up all the time to stop people switching platforms more easily. Make them always enter and leave the gateline, if it's so important to them.

I do suspect there might be lunch breaks and tea breaks. May be there are regular times every day and if you travel through Brighton often enough, you will get to know them.

I've certainly come across this elsewhere. One usually only notices such patterns when they travel regularly, and to travel regularly, where ticket barriers exist, one needs to have a ticket or they will get caught without one.
To be honest, if they really want you going through the gateline forever, its inevitable theyll get a proper permanent barrier at some point so the platforms are completely separated from each other, unless people absolutely have to rapidly change platforms in the case of disruption leading to a platform switchover.

To be fair with public transport, usually although there are always alternatives, including alternative modes, most of the time the choice is pretty obvious. While there are plenty of buses into Brighton, buses get a bad reputation for being slow, and before the fare cao, ludicrously overpriced. For many journeys, that leaves the train as by far the best choice for many into Brighton, considering parking is a nightmare in Brighton, leading to park and ride locations.

For example, one of my most frequent journeys recently is Bognor Regis to Lancing, and while the bus is substantially cheaper, it would take twice as long, and plenty could go wrong, such as traffic jams. Therefore the choice to use the train is pretty clear, as i dont drive. However, given how flexible the car is for many journeys, the choice to use that is so clear.

Although many people have the choice at using Brighton station, ultimately if poor customer service goes too far to the point that they could end up with crushes like the ones at Euston if they continue to insist on dozens of officers and limiting ticket barriers you can use for each line (particularly given East and West Coastway are now separate barriers), this could motivate people to use the alternatives if they can improve in response to terrible stories about Brighton station (E.G. more express buses to places like Haywards Heath and other intermediate stations to take in people making local journeys into Brighton stations).

Also, excuses like 'allow more time' i absolutely agree is a load of rubbish, given they basically gave it no thought as to how they could have allowed that, which would have been by placing some officers at the point where you currently cant cross directly to check to ensure the ticket you have is valid, rather than leading people into a gateline based on outdated 1980s technology leading their ticket to be wrongfully rejected, and miss a tight connection as a result.

By the way, with all these officers around on railway, it by no means is a GTR only thing. I had a ticket rejected by a barrier at Vauxhall changing from SWR to Victoria line, and I was asked to show my railcard to the barrier operator at the height of evening peak time. That is easily annoying, because doing that just leads to miss connections, particularly had i been changing from Victoria line to SWR and getting a line with just an hourly service, where a single check can lead to missed connections and lengthy delays that staff actions were responsible for.
 

KM1991

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By the way, with all these officers around on railway, it by no means is a GTR only thing. I had a ticket rejected by a barrier at Vauxhall changing from SWR to Victoria line, and I was asked to show my railcard to the barrier operator at the height of evening peak time. That is easily annoying, because doing that just leads to miss connections, particularly had i been changing from Victoria line to SWR and getting a line with just an hourly service, where a single check can lead to missed connections and lengthy delays that staff actions were responsible for.
You must present your supporting documentation to an authorised member of rail staff if asked to do so, regardless of reasons for why it may be “annoying”.

Many people buy and use discounted tickets without actually having the documents to do so.
 

Benjwri

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Big business. They're all trying to fleece us one way or another.
Is it big business trying to fleece us, or is it the (large) minority who try to steal off the businesses, making it unprofitable to continue without these measures? I suspect a bit of both.
 
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