Did they know the class 40 was going to whistle?

[citycat]

Sorry, this is one of those random questions that come to me at night sometimes.

When English Electric first built the engine for the class 40, did they know it was going to whistle?

Or did they hear it and say ‘Bloody hell, it sounds like a kettle on the boil but we’ll keep it that way and put it into production’.

Does anybody have any idea?

 

[randyrippley]

Presumably 10201/2/3 already made similar noises? 10203 especially given that it used the same diesel setup.
That should have given a good idea

 

[Cowley]

Presumably 10201/2/3 already made similar noises? 10203 especially given that it used the same diesel setup.
That should have given a good idea

Especially 10203 as I think that was rated at 2000 hp?

 

[DarloRich]

class 20's also whistle - it can be hard to tell them apart

 

[Ash Bridge]

Especially 10203 as I think that was rated at 2000 hp?

Don’t you know a person who might know the answer Mr C?

class 20's also whistle - it can be hard to tell them apart

Indeed!

 

[Cowley]

class 20's also whistle - it can be hard to tell them apart

I believe both classes use the same type of turbocharger and the SVT engines fitted to the 20s and 40s are not chargecooled like the later CSVT engines fitted to the 37s and 50s for example.
Without looking it up I’m not sure if the same types of turbo were used on the CSVT engines, but did the chargecooled ones tick over at slightly higher speed?

@Ash Bridge - This is true, I’ll ask my dad later.

 

[hexagon789]

Especially 10203 as I think that was rated at 2000 hp?

Yes it was, with 201 and 202 rated at 1,750hp and LMS/BR LMR Twins D10000 and 10001 at 1,600hp.

It is basically the same engines all the way from the LMS Twins at 1,760hp gross/1,600hp traction; the 40 at 2,000; the 50 with charge air cooling at 2,700hp and even the Ruston-Paxman RK3 MkIII variant (of 3,520hp gross downrated to 3,250hp traction) in the 56 is effectively the successor to the EE 16CSVT engine.

 

[DarloRich]

I believe both classes use the same type of turbocharger and the SVT engines fitted to the 20s and 40s are not chargecooled like the later CSVT engines fitted to the 37s and 50s for example.
Without looking it up I’m not sure if the same types of turbo were used on the CSVT engines, but did the chargecooled ones tick over at slightly higher speed?

@Ash Bridge - This is true, I’ll ask my dad later.

yes, of course, CSVT. non chargecooled. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[The exile]

Sorry, this is one of those random questions that come to me at night sometimes.

When English Electric first built the engine for the class 40, did they know it was going to whistle?

Or did they hear it and say ‘Bloody hell, it sounds like a kettle on the boil but we’ll keep it that way and put it into production’.

Does anybody have any idea?

Assuming it had no effect on performance, why would they have cared?

 

[Helvellyn]

class 20's also whistle - it can be hard to tell them apart

Yet the 40s acquited the Whistler nickname whereas the 20s are Choppers.

Digressing I do like that the 50s kept their Hoover nickname long after the air filtration equipment that have them not name was removed on refurbishment. Never actually come across any clips where you can hear that either.

 

[Cowley]

Yet the 40s acquited the Whistler nickname whereas the 20s are Choppers.

I have heard them referred to as Whistling Wardrobes.

Digressing I do like that the 50s kept their Hoover nickname long after the air filtration equipment that have them not name was removed on refurbishment. Never actually come across any clips where you can hear that either.

I have heard a clip of one somewhere but I can’t remember where. It was fairly recently as well so I’ll try and find it later.

On the second point, they seem to have done something to the fan on 50007 lately which has made it sound a little more like they used to as it’s louder than the others.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I read in tghe latest "RAIL" that the pair of 20s used for shunting at Earle's sidings on the Hope Valley line (20168/906) have been modified so they don't whistle, after complaints from the local residents. The standby loco, 20309, has not been modified but is not permitted to be used at night.

Why do both the 8SVT and a 16SVT whistle, but the 12SVT (as in Class 31) doesn't?

Am I misremebering, but didn't the Hasting's diesel units whistle too? (6SRKT)

What do the letters stand for, by the way?

 

[SuspectUsual]

What do the letters stand for, by the way?

C - intercooler
S - supercharged
V - v formation
T - train (as opposed to maritime)

 

[BanburyBlue]

Interesting question isn't it. Can you imagine the excitement in an engine design team the first time they turn on a new engine design - wondering what it will sound like.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting question isn't it. Can you imagine the excitement in an engine design team the first time they turn on a new engine design - wondering what it will sound like.

I am fairly certain the sound is a long way done the list of important items. I KNOW enthusiasts obsess over engine sound but I doubt the English Eclectic engineers did!

Sorry (not) to be the dull guy.

 

[billh]

Did the SVT engines in small ships and power stations whistle? EE engines were quite common in tugs ,ferries etc when we built such things in this country .I can distinguish the difference in sound of 20s and 40s, the former having 8cylinders,two turbos and the latter 16 with 4 turbos. The 20s have a more chopped up staccato sound (hence the name?).

 

[The exile]

Yet the 40s acquited the Whistler nickname whereas the 20s are Choppers.

Digressing I do like that the 50s kept their Hoover nickname long after the air filtration equipment that have them not name was removed on refurbishment. Never actually come across any clips where you can hear that either.

And 50s whistled as well - it was just less noticeable.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The 20s have a more chopped up staccato sound (hence the name?).

I always assumed it was from their shape in plan view. (Compare with "bone" for a class 58)

 

[DarloRich]

And 50s whistled as well - it was just less noticeable.

i always thought they whistled and wondered why it was never mentioned! Although being from the North East a 50 was an almost mythical beast so thought I must be wrong!

 

[Cowley]

I always assumed it was from their shape in plan view. (Compare with "bone" for a class 58)

I believe it’s because at times they sound like helicopters.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe it’s because at times they sound like helicopters.

Or look like Bike saddles, depending on source.

 

[Harpo]

50s kept their Hoover nickname long after the air filtration equipment that have them not name was removed on refurbishment. Never actually come across any clips where you can hear that either.

The Stavely Makepeace diesel hydraulics LP has, on track 3, a brief clip of 50020 arriving at Reading with that loud droning sound that was so familiar. However, the star of track 3 is 7022 sounding wonderful!

Meanwhile, if you get close to any idling class 50, it’s well worth a slow stroll past from end to end just to listen their range of sounds including that subtle whistle.

 

[matchmaker]

C - intercooler
S - supercharged
V - v formation
T - train (as opposed to maritime)

T- Traction
I think S was used for turbocharged as T was already in use...

 

[Forty29]

Sorry, this is one of those random questions that come to me at night sometimes.

When English Electric first built the engine for the class 40, did they know it was going to whistle?

Or did they hear it and say ‘Bloody hell, it sounds like a kettle on the boil but we’ll keep it that way and put it into production’.

Does anybody have any idea?

Strange l asked myself that very same question whilst watching 40106 at the SVR gala at the weekend!

 

[Pigeon]

Yes it was, with 201 and 202 rated at 1,750hp and LMS/BR LMR Twins D10000 and 10001 at 1,600hp.

It is basically the same engines all the way from the LMS Twins at 1,760hp gross/1,600hp traction; the 40 at 2,000; the 50 with charge air cooling at 2,700hp and even the Ruston-Paxman RK3 MkIII variant (of 3,520hp gross downrated to 3,250hp traction) in the 56 is effectively the successor to the EE 16CSVT engine.

You can extend that to include the 58; still the same engine, but with four fewer cylinders and more wellie per pot to compensate.

I read in tghe latest "RAIL" that the pair of 20s used for shunting at Earle's sidings on the Hope Valley line (20168/906) have been modified so they don't whistle, after complaints from the local residents. The standby loco, 20309, has not been modified but is not permitted to be used at night.

If I was a local resident I'd now be up in arms demanding they take the modification off again...

Why do both the 8SVT and a 16SVT whistle, but the 12SVT (as in Class 31) doesn't?

Different plumbing/turbocharger arrangements. The 8SVT is half a 16SVT, so they can both use the same four-cylinder manifold-and-turbocharger lump, two of them for the 8SVT and four for the 16SVT. The 12SVT has two banks of six cylinders, so it has to use something different.

Maybe if they'd made it the 12SWT instead (ie. same configuration as the Napier Lion) the 31 could have been somewhere near rateable...

 

[Irascible]

Every turbo whistles, it's the nature of a rapidly spinning device that moves air. Having multiple turbos which probably aren't going to be synchronised will make for some interesting harmonics. If you're ever near a spritely driven Western ( something that very tiny me was ) once you get past the Leopard tank grumble there's some pretty noticeable turbo whine there too, but I don't think anyone's ever remarked on it.

 

[Ashley Hill]

If you're ever near a spritely driven Western ( something that very tiny me was ) once you get past the Leopard tank grumble there's some pretty noticeable turbo whine there too, but I don't think anyone's ever remarked on it.

Noticeable here as D1015 tops the bank into Exeter Central.

 

[Richard Scott]

Why do both the 8SVT and a 16SVT whistle, but the 12SVT (as in Class 31) doesn't?

Am I misremebering, but didn't the Hasting's diesel units whistle too? (6SRKT)

Top one purely a guess that turbo was slightly different as had to feed 6 cylinders rather than 4?
Hastings were 4SRKTs as were all Thumpers and 73s but these were 600hp as opposed to Hastings 500hp.
Napier turbos were used quite extensively on a number of Polish locos, it would appear but whilst quite vocal don't quite whistle like 20s and 40s.
Seems the CSVT locos had a much less pronounced whistle, perhaps intercooling affected the sound in some way unless turbos were a different design.
As pointed out in another post all turbos whistle to some degree.

 

[Irascible]

I would think purely down to the type ( and size - four turbos are not going to be the same size as 1! ) of turbo fitted. Can someone with a reference dig up what model turbos EE fitted? I think other than the LMS pair they were all from Napiers, understandably as it was part of EE by then.

Noticeable here as D1015 tops the bank into Exeter Central.

And this one, which picks it out well despite being filmed with a potato

When I was a little kid I thought all trains left stations like that.

 

[D1537]

Yet the 40s acquited the Whistler nickname whereas the 20s are Choppers.

Digressing I do like that the 50s kept their Hoover nickname long after the air filtration equipment that have them not name was removed on refurbishment. Never actually come across any clips where you can hear that either.

This one isn't bad. It would be better to find one standing in, and then leaving, a station.

50046 on Rattery