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What speed limits are MU drags subject to?

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Egg Centric

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Suspect the answer to this might be "it depends". But I'm just driving a service* on train sim world where I'm dragging a 387 set with a class 37. Generally speaking what limits would such moves be subject to?


*Has a 5, i.e. ECS, headcode if it makes a difference.
 
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craigybagel

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Suspect the answer to this might be "it depends". But I'm just driving a service* on train sim world where I'm dragging a 387 set with a class 37. Generally speaking what limits would such moves be subject to?


*Has a 5, i.e. ECS, headcode if it makes a difference.
37s aren't allowed to run at MU speeds, so it would be the lower speed in that scenario. Most drags have fairly low top speeds anyway
 

contrex

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Didn't EMUs used to have (maybe still do?) limits on the speed running dead because the motors didn't like revolving with no current passing (commutator glazing? armature overspeed?). In fact, pretty much any older-generation diesel-electric or electric locos too I imagine. I know modern AC drive motors are different.
 
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hexagon789

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What speed were the Pendolinos dragged to Wales?
The 57s were designed specifically to be able haul a 9-car Pendolino at 95mph and supply a full ETS load of the same.

As it is, the maximum linespeed Crewe to Holyhead is only 90mph though...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What makes it different to the question asked?

A Pendolino is an EMU, it can be dragged in service or not.
Because it is was fully braked while dragged by a 57.

Many of delivery/maintenance drags are not or were not fully braked or had limited/restricted control of the brakes.
 

contrex

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I have read that in the early days of the ECML electrification, when they were using class 91 + HST formations, the HST traction motor commutators would suffer glazing and become liable to possible flash overs if the power cars weren't providing traction power all the time the unit was running. That sounds like a cumulative thing over a number of runs, but also such 'conventional' DC motors (like older EMUs have) might suffer from armature bursting or winding dislocation if overspeeded on one occasion, which is a mechanical rather than electrical issue, of course. Such an EMU geared for suburban speeds might not take kindly to a 90 mph tow, I daresay.
 

Egg Centric

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Many of delivery/maintenance drags are not or were not fully braked or had limited/restricted control of the brakes.

(Fwiw in my "simulator use case" there is a normal air brake in the class 37/8 that is somehow translated into stepped braking in the EMU - there's an indicator in the cab of the 37 as to whether it's in step 1/2/3. And the simulator acts like that - I don't know if I'm driving it "prototypically" but I essentially drive it as though the whole things is stepped because only the EMU brakes really matter given the length of the train. I dunno the technical details)
 

hexagon789

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(Fwiw in my "simulator use case" there is a normal air brake in the class 37/8 that is somehow translated into stepped braking in the EMU - there's an indicator in the cab as to whether it's in step 1/2/3. And the simulator acts like that. I dunno the technical details)
Such a thing does exist IRL, you may know that anyway, so in that case a higher running speed would of course be permissible though whether that is the maximum of the lowest speed vehicle in the formation or a lower figure still I've never seen stated.
 

gingertom

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I have read that in the early days of the ECML electrification, when they were using class 91 + HST formations, the HST traction motor commutators would suffer glazing and become liable to possible flash overs if the power cars weren't providing traction power all the time the unit was running. That sounds like a cumulative thing over a number of runs, but also such 'conventional' DC motors (like older EMUs have) might suffer from armature bursting or winding dislocation if overspeeded on one occasion, which is a mechanical rather than electrical issue, of course. Such an EMU geared for suburban speeds might not take kindly to a 90 mph tow, I daresay.
the story I'd read was the Paxman Valentas didn't enjoy being at fast tickover all day providing ETH to the MK3s. So the TDM remote control system was tweaked to allow the Paxman to deliver traction power in addition to that of the class 91. This led to some spirited performances....
 

FGW_DID

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Suspect the answer to this might be "it depends". But I'm just driving a service* on train sim world where I'm dragging a 387 set with a class 37. Generally speaking what limits would such moves be subject to?


*Has a 5, i.e. ECS, headcode if it makes a difference.

If it helps I’ve just looked at the train info for the last 37 & 387 moves between Reading & Ilford (5Q74 & 5Q99) and they are both stating limited to 60 MPH.
 

contrex

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the story I'd read was the Paxman Valentas didn't enjoy being at fast tickover all day providing ETH to the MK3s. So the TDM remote control system was tweaked to allow the Paxman to deliver traction power in addition to that of the class 91. This led to some spirited performances....
The story I read was that both were true; 91-hauling the HSTs that were just idling to provide ETH (and zilch to the traction motors) made the Valentas and the traction motors unhappy. As you say, spirited performances.
 

DanNCL

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45 mph is the top speed for 555s being dragged from Switzerland to the North East, regardless what’s hauling it or where. Going off the number of barrier wagons that come with them on each delivery, I suspect they’re dragged unbraked with the extra barrier wagons being for brake force.
 

themiller

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45 mph is the top speed for 555s being dragged from Switzerland to the North East, regardless what’s hauling it or where. Going off the number of barrier wagons that come with them on each delivery, I suspect they’re dragged unbraked with the extra barrier wagons being for brake force.
Is that 45mph a safety factor because the units haven’t been commissioned yet because their maximum speed is 50mph?
 

DanNCL

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Is that 45mph a safety factor because the units haven’t been commissioned yet because their maximum speed is 50mph?
Didn’t think of that actually. They’re delivered with Class 7 headcodes on the UK Network, I don’t know if that’s standard for a drag with barrier wagons or if class 5 is the norm for any unit drag.
 

hexagon789

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Didn’t think of that actually. They’re delivered with Class 7 headcodes on the UK Network, I don’t know if that’s standard for a drag with barrier wagons or if class 5 is the norm for any unit drag.
Class 7 denotes a 45mph limit, presumably identifiying clearly to signallers that it is restricted to a low running speed so as not to unduly hold up other services when regulating.
 

themiller

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Apart from it not being permitted to travel at a speed exceeding the lowest speed vehicle in the consist, is it class 7 because it’s limited to 45mph or is it limited to 45 because it’s class 7? What class would it be at 50mph?
 

hexagon789

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Apart from it not being permitted to travel at a speed exceeding the lowest speed vehicle in the consist, is it class 7 because it’s limited to 45mph or is it limited to 45 because it’s class 7? What class would it be at 50mph?
As I understand it, class numbers can be allocated such that the train can actually travel faster than the speed associated with the initial digit but not slower than. So a Class 7 may actually run at 50mph but would I assume be timed for 45mph. It wouldn't be run at 40mph for example.

Class 8, is 35mph, Class 6 is 60mph and Class 4 is 75mph.
 

craigybagel

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Apart from it not being permitted to travel at a speed exceeding the lowest speed vehicle in the consist, is it class 7 because it’s limited to 45mph or is it limited to 45 because it’s class 7? What class would it be at 50mph?
It's a class 7 because it's limited to 45mph. If it was 50mph it would be a class 6.
As I understand it, class numbers can be allocated such that the train can actually travel faster than the speed associated with the initial digit but not slower than. So a Class 7 may actually run at 50mph but would I assume be timed for 45mph. It wouldn't be run at 40mph for example.

Class 8, is 35mph, Class 6 is 60mph and Class 4 is 75mph.
It's the other way around. The speeds are the maximum allowed for that class, but they can be lower (but higher than the maximum speed for the next class down). So a class 7 is more than 35mph, but no higher than 45mph
 

hexagon789

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It's the other way around. The speeds are the maximum allowed for that class, but they can be lower (but higher than the maximum speed for the next class down). So a class 7 is more than 35mph, but no higher than 45mph
Thank you, I thought I might have it backwards, but it was a 50/50 choice and of course you always pick the wrong one! :lol:

My ultimate logic was based on thinking you wouldn't want to run slower than the Classification, but of course it's more not wanting to run slower than the schedule timings - the train Class speeds are a different thing to that, I should've thought of that.

Never mind, thank you for clarifying.
 

craigybagel

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Thank you, I thought I might have it backwards, but it was a 50/50 choice and of course you always pick the wrong one! :lol:

My ultimate logic was based on thinking you wouldn't want to run slower than the Classification, but of course it's more not wanting to run slower than the schedule timings - the train Class speeds are a different thing to that, I should've thought of that.

Never mind, thank you for clarifying.
No worries. I'd be very interested to know how often freight trains are timed for speeds lower than the maximum for that headcode - there must be a reason for the rules applying but I'm not aware of any examples myself.
 

themiller

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It's a class 7 because it's limited to 45mph. If it was 50mph it would be a class 6.

It's the other way around. The speeds are the maximum allowed for that class, but they can be lower (but higher than the maximum speed for the next class down). So a class 7 is more than 35mph, but no higher than 45mph
Thank-you for the explanation.
 
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No worries. I'd be very interested to know how often freight trains are timed for speeds lower than the maximum for that headcode - there must be a reason for the rules applying but I'm not aware of any examples myself.
Adverse gradients? I imagine up Shap some freights have to be timed considerably slower than their class (or the line speed) would suggest.
 
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