ORR release quarterly passenger data

[HSTEd]

Many of the london area TOCs were returning more money to the DfT prior to covid than the they were being subsidised by as well

Only because a huge portion of the rail industry's costs are hidden in indirect subsidies to Network Rail.

Once that is adjusted for, very few of the TOCs were not subsidised (it might have been one or two, I think Southeastern and LNER maybe?).
However, the SE TOCs were still far less heavily subsidised than the apparently bottomless money pit that is Northern.

 

[matt_world2004]

Only because a huge portion of the rail industry's costs are hidden in indirect subsidies to Network Rail.

Once that is adjusted for, very few of the TOCs were not subsidised (it might have been one or two, I think Southeastern and LNER maybe?).
However, the SE TOCs were still far less heavily subsidised than the apparently bottomless money pit that is Northern.

Subsidised less than the road network though, particularly in London which is part subsidised by LU fares.

 

[Krokodil]

Subsidised less than the road network though, particularly in London which is part subsidised by LU fares.

Not forgetting that money earmarked for taking HS2 to Manchester was nicked to fill some potholes in London

 

[yorksrob]

The south east England commuter rail subsidy does generate secondary economic output though if you suddenly closed all rail services in London the economic damage to tax revenues would almost certainly be greater than the cost of the subsidy itself.

Many of the london area TOCs were returning more money to the DfT prior to covid than the they were being subsidised by as well

All rail subsidy contributes to secondary economic output. The problem is, the whole fares system is designed around getting as much money out of captive wealthy commuters and businessmen, when there are fewer of them and they are less captive than before. This means that we lose the opportunity for pitching fares to encourage more lower and middle income usage

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==

If that is the purpose then in most places you’d get more bang for your buck by spending the money on other modes.

That's not really true though. You could try spending more money on buses, but for journeys such as Leeds - Manchester or even Manchester to Buxton, to take two examples, they would be crowded, hit congestion etc.

You'd just end up with a less functional transport system.

 

[The Planner]

Network Rail also has not yet caught up with idea that leisure travellers and those visiting family around public holidays are now important, and have replaced business travellers and commuters as important source of fare income.

Only have to look at the number of closures around Christmas and New Year because they are still in a putting business users and commuters as priority mindset.

You are forgetting freight here, who also have just as much say in dating of engineering works. They don't want it midweek.

 

[HSTEd]

Subsidised less than the road network though, particularly in London which is part subsidised by LU fares.

I very much doubt it.
Current estimates of the operational subsidy to the National rail system are around ~£12bn/yr, as you can see from the statistics.

It is very difficult to get exact figures, but most estimates for the total cost of maintenance of the road system is around £12bn. The strategic road network only costs ~£4-5bn per year.
And obviously, road traffic currently raises over £30bn in tax revenue from vehicle excise duty and fuel duty (from which trains are functionally exempt)

 

[The exile]

I very much doubt it.
Current estimates of the operational subsidy to the National rail system are around ~£12bn/yr, as you can see from the statistics.

It is very difficult to get exact figures, but most estimates for the total cost of maintenance of the road system is around £12bn. The strategic road network only costs ~£4-5bn per year.
And obviously, road traffic currently raises over £30bn in tax revenue from vehicle excise duty and fuel duty (from which trains are functionally exempt)

What’s the annual cost to the NHS for treating road accident victims (let’s leave pollution related illness out for the moment) compared with railway incidents? Both probably just a drop in the ocean, I’m sure.

 

[matt_world2004]

I very much doubt it.
Current estimates of the operational subsidy to the National rail system are around ~£12bn/yr, as you can see from the statistics.

It is very difficult to get exact figures, but most estimates for the total cost of maintenance of the road system is around £12bn. The strategic road network only costs ~£4-5bn per year.
And obviously, road traffic currently raises over £30bn in tax revenue from vehicle excise duty and fuel duty (from which trains are functionally exempt)

Vehicle excise duty and fuel duty is not a tax to use the road network though,anymore than council tax is a tax to use the bus network . Indeed you can have a vehicle that is exempt from.both and still use the road network

You can also pay fuel tax and not use the road network with that fuel

Most roads are maintained by councils who do not recieve income from vehicle excise duty or fuel duty.

Apart from a few toll roads the income that the road network recieves from fares to use it is near enough 0

 

[HSTEd]

Vehicle excise duty and fuel duty is not a tax to use the road network though,anymore than council tax is a tax to use the bus network . Indeed you can have a vehicle that is exempt from.both and still use the road network

You can also pay fuel tax and not use the road network with that fuel

Most roads are maintained by councils who do not recieve income from vehicle excise duty or fuel duty.

Apart from a few toll roads the income that the road network recieves from fares to use it is near enough 0

An overwhelming majority of taxed motor spirit and diesel sales will be used in road vehicles. The overwhelming majority of road vehicles pay fuel duty and a very large majority pay VED.
It might not, technically, be a tax on road usage, but de-facto it is one.

As for councils, they receive the overwhelmingly majority of their funds from central government - so de-facto they do receive income from fuel duty and vehicle excise duty.
There is no meaningful division between arms of the state, because ultimately they all answer to the Treasury

 

[matt_world2004]

An overwhelming majority of taxed motor spirit and diesel sales will be used in road vehicles. The overwhelming majority of road vehicles pay fuel duty and a very large majority pay VED.
It might not, technically, be a tax on road usage, but de-facto it is one.

As for councils, they receive the overwhelmingly majority of their funds from central government - so de-facto they do receive income from fuel duty and vehicle excise duty.
There is no meaningful division between arms of the state, because ultimately they all answer to the Treasury

They recieve an overwhelming majority of their income from council tax. Particularly in the southeast

 

[JamesT]

They recieve an overwhelming majority of their income from council tax. Particularly in the southeast

Do you have a reference for that statement?
Table 3a on https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...-budget-england#revenue-expenditure-financing
has local authority spending of £121.6bn being financed by £61.6bn of central grants and only £38.7bn of council tax. Less than a third is far from an overwhelming majority.

This Statistical Release, and all the associated tables, presents National Statistics on budgeted revenue expenditure for local authorities in England for the financial year 2023-24. This release includes detail on how much authorities are budgeting to spend across the services they provide, and the main sources of income to finance this expenditure.

 

[Krokodil]

There are plenty of costs road transport has which don't appear on a government balance sheet.

Private cars are a very inefficient use of land so there's an opportunity cost for the land used for parking which could have more productive employment. Vehicle tyres are the biggest source of microplastics (research is now leaning towards this being a bigger healthcare problem than tailpipe emissions). The cost of policing roads and dealing with RTCs, lost productivity due to congestion...

And it's not like the roads are actually maintained, they'd cost even more if they were maintained properly.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Do you have a reference for that statement?
Table 3a on https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...-budget-england#revenue-expenditure-financing
has local authority spending of £121.6bn being financed by £61.6bn of central grants and only £38.7bn of council tax. Less than a third is far from an overwhelming majority.

Just out of interest (and I am neutral in opinion) but I think (and I'm far from certain) that there once was a system whereby business rates receipts went direct to central government and were then re-distributed to local authorities on a formula basis regardless of origin . This might explain the large amount shown as coming from central grants; but the system might well have changed and I might be mistaken.

 

[JamesT]

Just out of interest (and I am neutral in opinion) but I think (and I'm far from certain) that there once was a system whereby business rates receipts went direct to central government and were then re-distributed to local authorities on a formula basis regardless of origin . This might explain the large amount shown as coming from central grants; but the system might well have changed and I might be mistaken.

A later line in that table is £18.6bn for “Retained income from Business Rate Retention Scheme”

 

[Snow1964]

You are forgetting freight here, who also have just as much say in dating of engineering works. They don't want it midweek.

I mentioned big Christmas closures when people want to get away, eg at places like Paddington station.

Freight on the main lines, yes, but at Christmas in a London passenger terminus, does it really affect freight ?

 

[The exile]

I mentioned big Christmas closures when people want to get away, eg at places like Paddington station.

Freight on the main lines, yes, but at Christmas in a London passenger terminus, does it really affect freight ?

If the reason for Paddington’s closure is actually at Acton, then yes. And anyway, I’m fairly sure that a Christmas shutdown is probably the least disruptive option for most freight customers.

 

[The Planner]

I mentioned big Christmas closures when people want to get away, eg at places like Paddington station.

Freight on the main lines, yes, but at Christmas in a London passenger terminus, does it really affect freight ?

Depends how far you are taking the block.

 

[The Ham]

Only because a huge portion of the rail industry's costs are hidden in indirect subsidies to Network Rail.

Once that is adjusted for, very few of the TOCs were not subsidised (it might have been one or two, I think Southeastern and LNER maybe?).
However, the SE TOCs were still far less heavily subsidised than the apparently bottomless money pit that is Northern.

Part of the complication of working out TOC support values is that depending on what headline number is used it can include the cost of enhancements (which generate future savings/income - which could include benefits up to 60 years after the spending).

Similarly, if total rail spending is counted, then things like Crossrail (XR) and HS2 spending is counted by some. However it's then not uncommon for the Business Rate Supplement for XR to not be included in the "income" side of things (especially if the person making the comment was biased against rail spending).

The problem, as already highlighted, it's that if we removed rail the cost of roads would be much higher. As such it's probably cheaper to keep funding railways.

It's like those who say there should be VED for cycles (first question I ask then is at what age should a cyclist pay it, 4?), however if cyclists were to be made to pay to use the public highway they would be far more vocal about having their own infrastructure. - and so would cost more than the total income from the new VED for cyclists. Also, if it was (say) £20 a year the admin costs of operating it would eat up a significant percentage of the money paid.