Alternative History - shutting Hope Valley line

[Egg Centric]

It's my understanding that original plan was close the Hope Valley line and leave Woodhead open. Is there any obvious reason why the Woodhead line was more special than the Hope Valley line is? No, it doesn't have the Woodhead tunnels, but it has Totley and Cowburn. And the DC stuff wouldn't have survived till now. So I'm struggling to see any logical reason that there should have been a different amount of love for it, if the powers had be had closed things the other way. But somehow, and I can't really explain it, I think there would have been...

Is it just cause of WHEN Woodhead closed?

 

[Transilien]

It's my understanding that original plan was close the Hope Valley line and leave Woodhead open. Is there any obvious reason why the Woodhead line was more special than the Hope Valley line is? No, it doesn't have the Woodhead tunnels, but it has Totley and Cowburn. And the DC stuff wouldn't have survived till now. So I'm struggling to see any logical reason that there should have been a different amount of love for it, if the powers had be had closed things the other way. But somehow, and I can't really explain it, I think there would have been...

Is it just cause of WHEN Woodhead closed?

I could imagine that the DC could have been converted to AC to allow compatibility with the rest of the network like what was done in the eastern region and with the commuter section in Manchester.

 

[JLH4AC]

I would say if the Hope Valley line was closed instead of Woodhead there would be likely the same calls to reopen it as many of the other lines closed as part of the Beeching cuts but not as much as there is with Wodhead in our reality as it would not be tied up in the crayonista fantasy of reopening the Great Central Main Line.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Woodhead route had FAR more through freight than the Hope Valley, (which had a cement works along the way). There was far less stone traffic for construction purposes back in the 1960s. The passenger service was basically local and it was expected that the Bakewell route would remain open if the Hope route closed.
After the Reshaping Report was published ever such a lot changed quite quickly.

 

[Topological]

A world with the Bakewell route and the Woodhead open for Manchester to South Yorkshire would have worked better, but that does mean two lines instead of one. I can see why just the Hope Valley makes sense from a cost perspective.

Had the Hope Valley closed, I cannot imagine there would be huge calls to re-open. The only missing connection would be Sheffield to Stockport, but is that such a huge market.

In the case of Woodhead, I think there is a feeling it is faster than the Hope Valley. That may, or may not, be true.

The North would benefit greatly from a new high-speed* link between Sheffield and Manchester, but that is firmly into Crayonista land.

* Free from freight and intermediate stops. The distance does not require 380km/h type design.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Woodhead was always the principal route between Manchester and Sheffield - the Hope Valley largely had just local trains from Chinley to Sheffield and v.v., connecting with expresses on the Bakewell route (which Dr. B also proposed retaining). The LMS had given up competing with the LNER between Manchester and Sheffield, withdrawing the Hope Valley express service by the '30s.

If Fidler's Ferry power station had not been built, and the need to reserve the Woodhead route exclusively for coal traffic, then the Hope Valley would have closed as per Dr. B. We would still have an electrified railway between Manchester and Sheffield, converted to 25kV AC - the quick conversion of the residual Hadfield service after the closure of Woodhead proved it wasn't as difficult as BR made out. There were plenty of spare AC locos, and a west facing curve could have been built at Nunnery to route the service into Sheffield Midland. All the necessary land was then in railway ownership, housing various redundant pre-grouping goods depots - now it under the Derek Dooley Way.

 

[Pigeon]

Woodhead was seen as a particularly egregious closure because it wasn't some little backwater of a route, it was an electrified main line complete with a whole new tunnel for the electrification that in tunnel terms was still brand new. All that work upgrading the route and now they destroy it; this is silly. The Hope Valley on the other hand was something of a backwater, and still had a service that felt like it was just going through the motions even after Woodhead had shut. It was there, but it wasn't much noticed and it wasn't "iconic" like the Woodhead route was.

(Or the Peak route, come to that; cue digression on "what if the Peak route had gone up the Hope Valley like they wanted to"...)

I can imagine, though, that calls might have arisen to reopen at least as much of the Hope Valley as would be required to provide a route to the cement works, to get the lorries off the roads, and then you might as well run a passenger service as well while you're at it. We would then end up with another of these crappy "stub" reopenings that don't go all the way through to where they used to go to, and repeated suggestions to finish the job and do it properly while Totley tunnel progressively mouldered.

In the case of Woodhead, I think there is a feeling it is faster than the Hope Valley. That may, or may not, be true.

Well, it was an electrified main line, so of course it must have been dead whizzy... Also, it is seen as more direct; it isn't really, it's about the same. It has more curvature than the Hope Valley, but less severe gradients. All else being equal, I don't think there'd be a whole lot in it. Woodhead reopening gets denigrated on here for not being fit for some ridiculous three-figure line speed, but you don't need that to run a usefully fast service; what you do need is to be able to stick to the line speed you do have, and not keep slowing down for signal checks or speed restrictions in lieu of maintenance.

For this reason I feel that Woodhead ought to be faster. The Hope Valley service always seems to spend an interminable time crawling along the slow lines from one single yellow to another at 15mph to Stockport and beyond, with a depressing view out of the window of a rubbish-strewn cutting side and an appropriately-named cess, giving the impression to the impatient passenger that the train is indeed going to be late and the railway doesn't care; a Woodhead service would not encounter this congestion, so wouldn't need to have its schedule padded to allow for it.

a west facing curve could have been built at Nunnery to route the service into Sheffield Midland. All the necessary land was then in railway ownership, housing various redundant pre-grouping goods depots - now it under the Derek Dooley Way.

I rather think you still could do it; you'd not be doing it at ground level anyway, so all you have to find room for is the piers of the viaduct. I think there is a reasonable spot to pierce the side of the northern approach to Midland and come out at a suitable level.

 

[Falcon1200]

Woodhead was seen as a particularly egregious closure because it wasn't some little backwater of a route, it was an electrified main line complete with a whole new tunnel for the electrification that in tunnel terms was still brand new.

Indeed, and the anger (still!) over the closure is understandable, however Woodhead for me had two major flaws;

Passenger trains; Being unable to serve, directly, Sheffield Midland meant retaining two stations in Sheffield and/or a time consuming reversal at Nunnery Junction. Or perhaps, terminate at Victoria with no connection to any other rail service. I doubt the investment to build a new curve at Sheffield would have been found, given that the Hope Valley provided an alternative.

Freight trains; Traffic patterns had changed and most freight was no longer yard-to-yard, but (over Woodhead especially) colliery to power station. This required multiple locos and crews, ie diesel from colliery to Rotherwood, Wath or Penistone, electric over the Pennines, diesel again to Fiddlers Ferry; And if coming from Wath, more electrics for Worsborough bank. So 3, or 4, sets of locos and crews for every MGR train. Incredibly inefficient, so it is understandable why BR closed Woodhead, as its passenger traffic had already been diverted away, and its freight could be with efficiency savings (and that freight no longer exists anyway).

 

[yorksrob]

It's my understanding that original plan was close the Hope Valley line and leave Woodhead open. Is there any obvious reason why the Woodhead line was more special than the Hope Valley line is? No, it doesn't have the Woodhead tunnels, but it has Totley and Cowburn. And the DC stuff wouldn't have survived till now. So I'm struggling to see any logical reason that there should have been a different amount of love for it, if the powers had be had closed things the other way. But somehow, and I can't really explain it, I think there would have been...

Is it just cause of WHEN Woodhead closed?

I think it serves more population en route.

It might not appear that theres much love for the Hope Valley, however we're in a position to be able to take it for granted

 

[Transilien]

Freight trains; Traffic patterns had changed and most freight was no longer yard-to-yard, but (over Woodhead especially) colliery to power station. This required multiple locos and crews, ie diesel from colliery to Rotherwood, Wath or Penistone, electric over the Pennines, diesel again to Fiddlers Ferry; And if coming from Wath, more electrics for Worsborough bank. So 3, or 4, sets of locos and crews for every MGR train. Incredibly inefficient, so it is understandable why BR closed Woodhead, as its passenger traffic had already been diverted away, and its freight could be with efficiency savings (and that freight no longer exists anyway).

Was there ever any plan to electrify to Fiddlers Ferry?

 

[eldomtom2]

it was expected that the Bakewell route would remain open if the Hope route closed.

Well considering Beeching proposed to withdraw stopping services from the Peak Forest line and then did not list it as a route "selected for development" in the Major Trunk Routes report, I don't think he saw much of a future for it.

Was there ever any plan to electrify to Fiddlers Ferry?

Beeching commented on possible electrification of the CLC line in the Major Trunk Routes report as one of the reasons for keeping Woodhead open (he wanted to keep Woodhead and the Calder Valley and shut Huddersfield, Hope Valley, and Peak Forest).

 

[Transilien]

Beeching commented on possible electrification of the CLC line in the Major Trunk Routes report as one of the reasons for keeping Woodhead open (he wanted to keep Woodhead and the Calder Valley and shut Huddersfield, Hope Valley, and Peak Forest).

So in this timeline there could have been electric services from Liverpool to Sheffield in the 20th century.

 

[Topological]

Another thought about Woodhead is that trains would not have had to reverse in Sheffield when running Nottingham to Manchester. In a world of loco-hauled services that would have been useful. However, that does assume the chord into Sheffield Midland was built.

 

[Pigeon]

Nottingham - Chesterfield - Beighton - Victoria - Woodhead, surely? Not touching Midland. Conversely, without Woodhead you can still run Chesterfield - Beighton - Nunnery - Midland - Dore - Hope Valley, which works out much the same in the end.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Another thought about Woodhead is that trains would not have had to reverse in Sheffield when running Nottingham to Manchester. In a world of loco-hauled services that would have been useful. However, that does assume the chord into Sheffield Midland was built.

Is the reversal actually a problem in the real world though? I'd argue it isn't. Much like those who want to replace Bradford Interchange with a station on a reopened Bowling curve the best part of a mile from the city centre, the reversal anxiety tail is wagging the connectivity dog here.

 

[Topological]

Is the reversal actually a problem in the real world though? I'd argue it isn't. Much like those who want to replace Bradford Interchange with a station on a reopened Bowling curve the best part of a mile from the city centre, the reversal anxiety tail is wagging the connectivity dog here.

I was more thinking it might have saved a little time and operational complexity. Not reversing at Sheffield is no argument for re-opening Woodhead.

This is more in the hypothetical world that Woodhead survived and the Hope Valley closed.

 

[Dr Hoo]

So in this timeline there could have been electric services from Liverpool to Sheffield in the 20th century.

There is a passing reference to ‘scope’ for extending electrification to Liverpool via the CLC. However the selection of this route combination was predicated on avoiding central Manchester for freight by looping round from Godley.

The ‘Trunk Routes’ report was written by James Ness, the BRB Planning Director, rather than Dr Beeching. It assumed a general 75% increase in rail freight, underpinned by the new government’s epic 4% compound annual economic growth. It said very little about prospects for trunk passenger services.

As is now well understood, the growth in rail freight and the wider economy stalled and the whole electrification programme across all voltages and systems was allowed to grind to a halt.

In practice an attractive prospectus for increasing rail’s freight role was frustrated and abandoned whilst motorway construction was pressed forward.

 

[Transilien]

There is a passing reference to ‘scope’ for extending electrification to Liverpool via the CLC. However the selection of this route combination was predicated on avoiding central Manchester for freight by looping round from Godley.

The ‘Trunk Routes’ report was written by James Ness, the BRB Planning Director, rather than Dr Beeching. It assumed a general 75% increase in rail freight, underpinned by the new government’s epic 4% compound annual economic growth. It said very little about prospects for trunk passenger services.

As is now well understood, the growth in rail freight and the wider economy stalled and the whole electrification programme across all voltages and systems was allowed to grind to a halt.

In practice an attractive prospectus for increasing rail’s freight role was frustrated and abandoned whilst motorway construction was pressed forward.

Without extensions to the electrification in the north of England Woodhead would have been non-standard as an electrified long distance route. If there were no prospects of extending wires (presumably under 25kv) could BR just have de-electrified Woodhead because of its non-standard system and its relative lack of connections with other electrified lines?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Without extensions to the electrification in the north of England Woodhead would have been non-standard as an electrified long distance route. If there were no prospects of extending wires (presumably under 25kv) could BR just have de-electrified Woodhead because of its non-standard system and its relative lack of connections with other electrified lines?

I understood that because the new Woodhead Tunnel didn’t have regular ventilation shafts full operation by diesel in large quantities wasn’t feasible (but willing to be corrected).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I understood that because the new Woodhead Tunnel didn’t have regular ventilation shafts full operation by diesel in large quantities wasn’t feasible (but willing to be corrected).

It definitely had at least one shaft (the stack at the top has, or had, a mural of Class 76s on it) but if that was the only one, I could see regular diesel traffic being a problem. Presumably there were no cross-passages between the old and new tunnels like there are with Standedge?

 

[fishwomp]

Had the Hope Valley closed, I cannot imagine there would be huge calls to re-open. The only missing connection would be Sheffield to Stockport, but is that such a huge market.

The Stockport connection came 5 years after the Woodhead closure - Hazel Grove chord is "new" - so you'd really want to compare like with like, as they could have built any number of chords on the Woodhead too.

I understood that because the new Woodhead Tunnel didn’t have regular ventilation shafts full operation by diesel in large quantities wasn’t feasible (but willing to be corrected).

Diesel did pass through - Hope valley detours, railtours, freight workings. Of course, everyone took photos of 76s, and nothing else, nothing else was worth taking - so future historians may come to other conclusions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it would have become a cycleway, but there would have been less call for it because tourist demand for the honeypots it serves, which are in part honeypots because of the railway, would be lower. There'd perhaps have been a quaint little tourist tea shop at Woodhead instead of Edale, and the pubs in Tintwistle would have done better. Edale would still be a nice place, but it'd be much quieter.

In short, the busier bit of the Peak (aside from the climbing around Hathersage, which people mostly reach by car anyway as climbing gear is heavy and it's a good couple of kilometres from Hathersage) would probably have been a bit further north than it now is, in accordance with where the railway ended up.

 

[eldomtom2]

It said very little about prospects for trunk passenger services.

It said a fair bit, though in the case of trans-Pennine services most passenger traffic seems to have been envisioned as going over the Calder Valley.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It said a fair bit, though in the case of trans-Pennine services most passenger traffic seems to have been envisioned as going over the Calder Valley.

True, although Inter-city trains running at fairly high speeds were reckoned to be only 10% of total movement via the Calder Valley.

Woodhead was expected to be predominantly heavy freight averaging only 35mph.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Diesel did pass through - Hope valley detours, railtours, freight workings. Of course, everyone took photos of 76s, and nothing else, nothing else was worth taking - so future historians may come to other conclusions.

Detours, railtours and the occasional scheduled diesel-hauled freight is one thing... had the line been de-electrified but still carried the same volume of cross-Pennine coal, this time hauled by diesels, would be quite another... though when you consider the lack of ventilation shafts (for obvious reasons) in the Severn Tunnel, I can't imagine that regular diesels through Woodhead would have been an insurmountable problem. Maybe a rule requiring double-heading (or top&tailing) in the event of things going pear-shaped?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

4472 'Flying Scotsman' in light steam was piloted through Woodhead Tunnel by an EM1 (Cl 76) on a railtour in 1964.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Detours, railtours and the occasional scheduled diesel-hauled freight is one thing... had the line been de-electrified but still carried the same volume of cross-Pennine coal, this time hauled by diesels, would be quite another... though when you consider the lack of ventilation shafts (for obvious reasons) in the Severn Tunnel, I can't imagine that regular diesels through Woodhead would have been an insurmountable problem. Maybe a rule requiring double-heading (or top&tailing) in the event of things going pear-shaped?

The Severn Tunnel was built with and retains, powered ventilation fans.

Interestingly both Totley and Cowburn Tunnels on the 1890s Hope Valley Line were built with large shafts and a chamber for ventilation equipment albeit this was never installed. Both tunnels had multiple shafts as I understand it, though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was there ever any plan to electrify to Fiddlers Ferry?

No.
The route from Godley Jn via Stockport TD-Northenden-Broadheath-Lymm-Warrington BQLL was never in any sense a main line, though its sections carried a lot of freight traffic avoiding Manchester.
I seem to remember that the 1960s A49 road bridge over the railway at Wilderspool (Warrington), replacing a busy level crossing, was built with 25kV clearance.
The same thing happened at Ellesmere Port, where the line was eventually electrified but not with OHLE.
Fiddlers Ferry is now dead, of course, but the route may sill play a part in the plans for a new Liverpool-Manchester line for NPR.
But good luck getting a fast route threading Warrington BQLL.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Another thought about Woodhead is that trains would not have had to reverse in Sheffield when running Nottingham to Manchester.

They still don’t have to! They just can’t call at Sheffield if they don’t…

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They still don’t have to! They just can’t call at Sheffield if they don’t…

Unless they run via the "old road" of course.