Reasons for paper tickets being the only option, rather than e-tickets?

[creosote]

Hi. I often buy tickets from Portslade to Clapham Junction. Regardless who I buy from I only get offered the paper ticket pick up option even from southern who serve that route (if that makes a difference).
If I buy from Brighton to CJ however I get the e-ticket option. That is served by both southern and thameslink.
I would have thought that these days there should be barely any reason not to be able to issue an e-ticket, its certainly not a tech thing so Im guessing it must be a jurisdiction think, which is still frustrating as theyre both owned by Govia.
Any help to understand the issue? Also if they cant do it now and its not technology, will it ever change?

 

[jfollows]

It could be simply that Portslade-Clapham Junction has not been “enabled” for e-ticket and if you contact Southern they can fix the omission. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/any-rules-on-e-tickets.263851/#post-6669060

E-Ticket availability for all retailers except Trainline is controlled directly by the train companies.

They need to enable flows (combinations of from/to and route) for E-Tickets manually in a system named RCS.

If that system says you can't sell a particular ticket as an E-Ticket, it has to be offered on paper instead (or an alternative like smartcard or m-Ticket where applicable).

Most flows which are valid across London aren't enabled (there are exceptions, such as some Thameslink tickets which are technically interavailable on the tube), and various other flows aren't, typically by accident.

(Ticket types also need to be enabled for E-Ticket fulfillment too, but this is, at least from my experience, generally less of an issue.)

 

[DelW]

Hi. I often buy tickets from Portslade to Clapham Junction. Regardless who I buy from I only get offered the paper ticket pick up option even from southern who serve that route (if that makes a difference).
If I buy from Brighton to CJ however I get the e-ticket option. That is served by both southern and thameslink.
I would have thought that these days there should be barely any reason not to be able to issue an e-ticket, its certainly not a tech thing so Im guessing it must be a jurisdiction think, which is still frustrating as theyre both owned by Govia.
Any help to understand the issue? Also if they cant do it now and its not technology, will it ever change?

Not relevant to the journey you've mentioned, but possibly worth noting: that e-tickets aren't available for journeys involving cross London transfers, or to London Underground zones, because TfL gatelines aren't equipped with barcode scanners. Such routes have to use mag-stripe paper tickets.

 

[Adam Williams]

Really it's long overdue that there was a move from a "whitelist"/allowlist of E-Ticketable routes to a set where E-Tickets are not permitted. This would solve the inevitable "Why can't I get E-Tickets for this new station that's opened?" and "Why aren't these new Advance ticket types E-Ticketable?".

The current approach does not work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBF it's just time for LU and Merseyrail to get their house sorted out and for all routes to be e-ticketable. The financial savings to the railway of being able to decommission ToD and just have TVMs print barcodes on till roll (as some trial ones do) would be immense.

 

[redreni]

Yes, the weird station pairs that aren't e-ticketable for no discernible rhyme or reason are becoming increasingly anachronistic as paper tickets ordered online become more of a niche thing outside of cross-London journeys.

For me TOD is no issue as I commute by train, so I have loads of opportunities to pick the tickets up in advance and would have time to sort out any issues in advance of travel. Having to pick the ticket up immediately before travel can cause anxiety for some people, though, especially if you're relying on a single TVM at a small station. The inconsistencies in terms of what happens if the ticket can't be collected (ranging from "have you got your booking reference, sir? Thank you, here are your tickets" right through to fines and prosecutions, or being denied travel) make TOD a bad system for anyone who can't, without being inconvenienced, pick the tickets up in advance of when they want to travel.

 

[Adam Williams]

Customers are increasingly unfamiliar with ToD too, which means they don't notice they need to collect the tickets or struggle to follow the instructions. Depending on where you live, it's entirely possible to commute daily and go years just purchasing E-Tickets without needing to touch paper tickets.

 

[Sonic1234]

GTR have always been lukewarm to e-tickets. They haven't refused like TfL, but have never been that interested. It's the popularity of the format that has pushed them into making more provision for them, for a long time only the wide gate at their larger stations had a scanner. There's lots of anomalies on Southern, like a return being available as an e-ticket but a single only as paper.

Are these Advance tickets? I've found Southern advances are paper only if they involve either a) an ungated station or b) a station not managed by Southern. No idea why.

 

[MrJeeves]

GTR have always been lukewarm to e-tickets.

With the number of posters I see across my local stations and on-train advertising screens telling me that "going green means less orange", and that I can "fly through the station" with E-Tickets, it's genuinely impressive how poor they are at actually enabling tickets for E-Ticket fulfilment.

If I want to go one stop down the line from a local station then I can use an E-Ticket provided I don't want the Anytime Day Single or the 1st Class Off-Peak Day Return. I have no idea what is so special about these tickets compared to, say, the 1st Class Anytime Day Single or the Standard Class Off-Peak Day Return. Honestly, I don't think GTR know either.

 

[IrishDave]

TBF it's just time for LU and Merseyrail to get their house sorted out and for all routes to be e-ticketable. The financial savings to the railway of being able to decommission ToD and just have TVMs print barcodes on till roll (as some trial ones do) would be immense.

As I understand it, TfL's objection is that e-tickets are simply too slow compared to magstripe tickets, and you'd need many more ticket gates at every tube station in order to allow the same throughput on e-tickets compared to magstripe (or Oyster). So "getting their house sorted out" probably entails, at least in TfL's view, rebuilding almost every major tube station interchange.

 

[JonathanH]

So "getting their house sorted out" probably entails, at least in TfL's view, rebuilding almost every major tube station interchange.

Project Oval should remove a lot of paper ticket use from the Underground network. Something needs to happen with Travelcards. Once those are both complete the number of through tickets on TfL may be very small. You can see why they may be holding out on e-ticket enablement if it involves expense.

 

[Peter0124]

Scotrail funnel everyone through their 'm-ticket' system with the app, rather than let you buy e-tickets.

 

[alxndr]

Really it's long overdue that there was a move from a "whitelist"/allowlist of E-Ticketable routes to a set where E-Tickets are not permitted. This would solve the inevitable "Why can't I get E-Tickets for this new station that's opened?" and "Why aren't these new Advance ticket types E-Ticketable?".

The current approach does not work.

I disagree. A paper ticket is always usable, an e-ticket is not. If a ticket is only available on paper it is an inconvenience, if it’s only available as an e-ticket it’s potentially close to useless in some circumstances.

 

[yorksrob]

As I understand it, TfL's objection is that e-tickets are simply too slow compared to magstripe tickets, and you'd need many more ticket gates at every tube station in order to allow the same throughput on e-tickets compared to magstripe (or Oyster). So "getting their house sorted out" probably entails, at least in TfL's view, rebuilding almost every major tube station interchange.

This is the point that many seem to miss. I often end up at the barriers stuck behind a load of people waiving their phones at them, calling over the assistant etc. mag-stripe is so much quicker.

 

[JonathanH]

Paper e-ticket is being rolled out though replacing the magnetic stripe tickets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Paper e-ticket is being rolled out though replacing the magnetic stripe tickets.

Paper eTicket ? What is this new format that I've never heard of ?

 

[OscarH]

Paper eTicket ? What is this new format that I've never heard of ?

Have you not been to Glasgow recently? :P

 

[Wallsendmag]

Have you not been to Glasgow recently? :P

They're just eTickets (fudged using mTicket data) are they talking about PRT? Very different to an eTicket

 

[OscarH]

They're just eTickets (fudged using mTicket data) are they talking about PRT? Very different to an eTicket

I know they mean PRT, but it's fun to moan about that machine.

Knew it was overriding the data somehow but didn't know it was using mTicket to mean eTicket specifically

 

[JonathanH]

Paper eTicket ? What is this new format that I've never heard of ?

Sorry, I mean white paper ticket with barcode. (The scanning is electronic.)

 

[Wallsendmag]

Sorry, I mean white paper ticket with barcode.

So PRT then

 

[The exile]

With the number of posters I see across my local stations and on-train advertising screens telling me that "going green means less orange", and that I can "fly through the station" with E-Tickets,

Ironically, round here it’s people with e-tickets who seem to be the slowest through barriers (I appreciate that that’s only part of the process of going through the station - especially if you haven’t got a ticket in advance)

 

[James H]

I do think there's an issue with how different barcode scanners seem to require scanning at a different distance.

It can be hard to know how to hold your device / printed e-ticket for optimum scanning, as it doesn't always seem to be the same.

 

[OscarH]

I do think there's an issue with how different barcode scanners seem to require scanning at a different distance.

It can be hard to know how to hold your device / printed e-ticket for optimum scanning, as it doesn't always seem to be the same.

I absolutely despise the barcode scanners on Cubic gates, it's so unnatural to me having to put the phone upside down, and makes it way harder to line up

 

[Pieman007]

I buy Advance tickets for work through Southern website, I am currently up to December and one thing I noticed when mistakenly selecting e-ticket one is that it gets issued immediately, which then made it impossible to Amend it for free on the website unlike what I can do with a Paper ticket.

Whether this was a glitch or standard I haven't rechecked......

 

[Haywain]

Whether this was a glitch or standard I haven't rechecked.

It is standard, and intentional.

 

[Watershed]

I buy Advance tickets for work through Southern website, I am currently up to December and one thing I noticed when mistakenly selecting e-ticket one is that it gets issued immediately, which then made it impossible to Amend it for free on the website unlike what I can do with a Paper ticket.

Whether this was a glitch or standard I haven't rechecked......

It's not a glitch, it's intended to work that way as it's how the terms and conditions of the Rainy Day Guarantee work. eTickets are always issued straight away; I can't think of any retailers that don't do this.

 

[cool110]

I do think there's an issue with how different barcode scanners seem to require scanning at a different distance.

It can be hard to know how to hold your device / printed e-ticket for optimum scanning, as it doesn't always seem to be the same.

Even the same model of scanner in different locations can have this problem. Blackpool Pleasure Beach have recently issued staff with handheld scanners to remotely release ride turnstiles, due to the number of people having issues with the built-in ones.

 

[MrJeeves]

It's not a glitch, it's intended to work that way as it's how the terms and conditions of the Rainy Day Guarantee work. eTickets are always issued straight away; I can't think of any retailers that don't do this.

Though, to be fair, the cost of issuing, revoking, and re-issuing an E-Ticket should be quite a bit lower than doing the same to a ToD booking, isn't it?

The only reason for this to be done, as far I can tell, would be to prevent people moving tickets a bunch of times, then using the old PDFs/wallet passes thinking that actually being checked on GTR is such a rarity that they'll probably end up travelling without issue!

 

[Haywain]

I can't think of any retailers that don't do this.

I should hope not - settlement takes place at the time of issue, so to fail to issue the ticket at the time of booking would be seen as a serious accreditation failure.

Though, to be fair, the cost of issuing, revoking, and re-issuing an E-Ticket should be quite a bit lower than doing the same to a ToD booking, isn't it?

I don't know the details, but don't retailers incur a fee for generating a barcode? There may also be a fee for writing a ToD to LSM, but in terms of cost the key question would be whether they are comparable.