Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[overthewater]

Edinburgh hasn't got any fares below 2 quid. We don't have the 2 quid cap in Scotland anyway, but 2 quid has been the flat fare here for a while

It does, Midland bluebird has £1 City fare on the X38. it only seems to be advertised on the destination screens

 

[Trainman40083]

In Derby, Arriva Derby charge £1.30 from the railway station into Derby. Other operators charge £2.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

This is where contactless tap on (and maybe tap off) with daily capping comes in.

Plenty don't! Even before the cap in Bristol the regular single for first buses was £2. There was a 3 stop hop too but that was scrapped due to people taking the mick and trying to go further on the ticket.



This may have been true in the past (personally I think you are being way too paranoid mind you, but let's ignore that for now). However with tap on tap off systems and daily capping none of what you said applies at all.

The problem with tap on tap off (TOTO, go on sing the song ) and capping is how it is set up. Here is Stoke-on-Trent there is the 'affordable fares' initiative which offers a multi-operator 'Smart' day ticket for £3.50. The First system doesn't recognise this under TOTO, so if you do two journeys it charges £4.00. Similarly if you travel further afield you cap out at the First £8.50 day fare rather than the multi-operator Knot ticket at £7.00.

 

[JonathanH]

As a result I tend to avoid making short journeys if I can, unless I reach a daily cap, to the extent that I even avoid visiting shops which requires a connecting bus journey from a rail station unless I can cycle there.

That isn't an undesirable feature of a fares system. If people can walk or cycle a given distance, they really should.

 

[WibbleWobble]

TOTO, go on sing the song

Living in a house of motor racing fans, rains coming down in Africa aren't always the first thing that comes to hand. The boss of the Mercedes F1 team on the other hand....

Here is Stoke-on-Trent there is the 'affordable fares' initiative which offers a multi-operator 'Smart' day ticket for £3.50. The First system doesn't recognise this under TOTO, so if you do two journeys it charges £4.00.

Probably needs all operators to be on the same ticketing system. Morebus and Yellow Buses did similar prior to the latter's demise as both were using Ticketer (although First were not party to it - but their presence was so small that the numbers involved there were probably next to zero).

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn't an undesirable feature of a fares system. If people can walk or cycle a given distance, they really should.

Yes, that's true, but people shouldn't be double-penalised for not having a direct bus to their destination.

 

[Tetchytyke]

n small urban areas a flat fare make sense, but for an urban area as large as London, it heavily penalises short journeys while subsidies long journeys, especially in an environment where some buses run express.

It only really penalises very short journeys, certainly in my experience you don't see all that many sub-£2 fares and where you do see them it tends to be things like the 'short hop' that First in Bristol and NXWM used to offer.

For longer distance travel it doesn't really matter in urban areas if you can go a long way on one bus for the flat fare.

As for subsidising express buses, the only example I can really think of is the SL6. But there's a reason why cities like Hamburg, who used to charge a premium on their Schnellbus network, got rid of the premiums years ago. Everyone just took the local bus.

Flat fares keeps things simple, and simple is attractive.

If we're keeping the fare cap, it makes sense to have everything as a flat fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2024 ==

Yes, that's true, but people shouldn't be double-penalised for not having a direct bus to their destination.

The solution to that is the Hopper fare, something that should be much easier to implement with tap-on and reconciliation at the end of the day.

Flat fares give speedy boarding: Arriva Merseyside boarding is noticeably quicker since they brought it in. This disadvantages people who'd be using sub-£2 fares to ride half a mile but, to be quite frank, this is no bad thing.

 

[miklcct]

It only really penalises very short journeys, certainly in my experience you don't see all that many sub-£2 fares and where you do see them it tends to be things like the 'short hop' that First in Bristol and NXWM used to offer.

I think that very short journeys should mean 500 m or less, which is the number used for calculating the catchment area of underground stations in Hong Kong without the need of onward transport.

For a 1.6 km journey, for example, between Cricklewood and Brondesbury, I still think that charging a full £1.75 fare unnecessarily penalise such short journeys.

For longer distance travel it doesn't really matter in urban areas if you can go a long way on one bus for the flat fare.

As for subsidising express buses, the only example I can really think of is the SL6. But there's a reason why cities like Hamburg, who used to charge a premium on their Schnellbus network, got rid of the premiums years ago. Everyone just took the local bus.

Flat fares keeps things simple, and simple is attractive.

If we're keeping the fare cap, it makes sense to have everything as a flat fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2024 ==


The solution to that is the Hopper fare, something that should be much easier to implement with tap-on and reconciliation at the end of the day.

Flat fares give speedy boarding: Arriva Merseyside boarding is noticeably quicker since they brought it in. This disadvantages people who'd be using sub-£2 fares to ride half a mile but, to be quite frank, this is no bad thing.

The Hopper fare does not apply between bus and rail, therefore it, again penalises people who travel between Cricklewood and anywhere on the North London Line using a combination of bus and Overground, when the bus runs every 3-5 minutes but the Thameslink service only runs every 15-30 minutes.

 

[Mikey C]

I think that very short journeys should mean 500 m or less, which is the number used for calculating the catchment area of underground stations in Hong Kong without the need of onward transport.

For a 1.6 km journey, for example, between Cricklewood and Brondesbury, I still think that charging a full £1.75 fare unnecessarily penalise such short journeys.


The Hopper fare does not apply between bus and rail, therefore it, again penalises people who travel between Cricklewood and anywhere on the North London Line using a combination of bus and Overground, when the bus runs every 3-5 minutes but the Thameslink service only runs every 15-30 minutes.

But then how people NEED to take short bus journeys that don't get free travel through age or disability? If people chose to take such short journeys rather than walk, I don't see why they should get a cheap fare.

I agree about the connection fare issue between bus and rail in London, which pushes people to either use rail OR buses, rather than both for a single journey..

 

[miklcct]

But then how people NEED to take short bus journeys that don't get free travel through age or disability? If people chose to take such short journeys rather than walk, I don't see why they should get a cheap fare.

In my opinion mileage-based pricing is the fairest form of pricing (maybe a lower chargeable limit of 1 km, but without any per-trip component on the price). The result of a flat fare on me is that I avoid visiting shops out of my usual commute, or require a stopover on my commute, unless I can cycle it. The short journeys which I am talking about are around 1 - 5 km in length, outside normal walking distance but still incur a high per-km cost on flat fare systems.

This is similar to the pro-car argument of "it doesn't cost me extra to stop off with my car" to visit shops en-route.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For a 1.6 km journey, for example, between Cricklewood and Brondesbury, I still think that charging a full £1.75 fare unnecessarily penalise such short journeys.

£2 (£1.75 in London) for a one mile journey seems about right to me.

The Hopper fare does not apply between bus and rail, therefore it, again penalises people

It isn't multi-modal, I'm unsure how this "penalises" anyone and nor do I understand why this is relevant to a conversation about the £2 bus fare cap.

 

[miklcct]

£2 (£1.75 in London) for a one mile journey seems about right to me.

If it is £2 for a one-mile journey, taking it to proportion it will mean £10 for a 5-mile journey, of £40 for a 20-mile journey. It doesn't seem right to me.

Anything more than 45p per mile is outrageous for me, and reasonable for me means 25p per mile or less.

It isn't multi-modal, I'm unsure how this "penalises" anyone and nor do I understand why this is relevant to a conversation about the £2 bus fare cap.

It penalises people who need to connect between bus and rail, compared to other journeys of similar length and nature which can be made by bus alone or rail alone.

 

[Goldfish62]

For a 1.6 km journey, for example, between Cricklewood and Brondesbury, I still think that charging a full £1.75 fare unnecessarily penalise such short journeys.

Go one single stop on my local route outside London and the fare is £2. £1.75 for 1.6km is good value.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If it is £2 for a one-mile journey, taking it to proportion it will mean £10 for a 5-mile journey, of £40 for a 20-mile journey. It doesn't seem right to me.

Anything more than 45p per mile is outrageous for me, and reasonable for me means 25p per mile or less.


It penalises people who need to connect between bus and rail, compared to other journeys of similar length and nature which can be made by bus alone or rail alone.

It’s because public transport fares are rarely linear. You have a base fare to cover fixed costs and then the fare tapers incrementally over longer distances.

In fact, have you not noticed how in many other facets of life/pricing that it isn’t linear?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Five people, travelling one mile each, paying £1.50 each. Or one person travelling five miles and paying (at present) £2.00.
The disadvantage of lots of short journeys is the extended journey time and the feeling of 'always stopping' to longer distance travellers. Just like a frequent stop train service.

 

[Ghostbus]

In my city, a <£2 fare can get you from the outer estates to the inner city boundary. That's a 2 and a half mile distance as the crow flies. Nobody wants to walk that far as part of their daily lives, even if they were capable.

It can only be cycled on the potholed busy local roads or poorly maintained paving slabs pavements, so nobody really wants to do that. Even in good weather, it's a dangerous and noxious experience (the cost of living crisis and/or increasingly complex exhaust systems has led to a surprising increase in the belching of black fumes, even from school buses).

This journey would be most useful to poor people needing to visit the main hospital, although presumably it also helps any number of generations get to work, including students in halls close to town, traveling out to pubs, clubs, restaurants and leisure facilities in the suburbs (this includes at least two staff in my local).

These bus routes are rarely full, even in peak times. The main routes are adequately serviced with high frequency corridors running until the witching hours, while the less frequent routes offer the usual trade-off of a longer wait for a more convenient trip. Clearly cheap single fares is one reason these routes still see commercially viable off peak patronage.

Day tickets are widely used, but probably not for changes in buses where the journey is all on one side of the city. The network just isn't that useful or frequent. A quirk of the tram era means I can get to many parts of one side of this city for just £2 by simply staying on a bus that goes into and then back out of the centre, often quicker than changing buses out of town.

There is no evident need for any tap on tap off system here, with passengers perfectly comfortable with contractless cash payment or passes. The local council seems to want to push it, but it's clearly only because someone in the food chain is eyeing a slice of the consultancy fees, not passenger benefits.

Making this trip a £2 flat fare for the supposed convenience of the very people whose pockets you are picking and in whose name you are c!aiming to benefit, would not be a popular move. It would be seen as yet another increase in the already burdensome cost of living.

It would also presumably just increase the demand for dangerous electric scooters among the young, and uninsured motor transport among the middle aged.

The elderly would definitely suffer, given their short free journeys are the ones that go first when the network is unable to sustain itself.

 

[ic31420]

That isn't an undesirable feature of a fares system. If people can walk or cycle a given distance, they really should.

On the one hand I agree, I have a car, but it usually goes out once a week unless we're going on a journey/holiday where pubtra isn't sensible or effective. Most shopping, school runs, work, visits to town etc are walked or cycled. I'd really like to get rid of my car, but there are just a few occasions we need it, for now.

But, there are occasions where my other half especially will not want to walk. Tipping down rain school and nursery run / shopping trip with a toddler just aren't pleasant. £4 for a couple of miles is too steep so she gets the car out. And that's what we're trying to avoid.

Five people, travelling one mile each, paying £1.50 each. Or one person travelling five miles and paying (at present) £2.00.
The disadvantage of lots of short journeys is the extended journey time and the feeling of 'always stopping' to longer distance travellers. Just like a frequent stop train service.

Agreed, but the the bus may be stopping anyway. Especially on the school run, or shop run journey above.

 

[Deerfold]

Flat fares give speedy boarding: Arriva Merseyside boarding is noticeably quicker since they brought it in. This disadvantages people who'd be using sub-£2 fares to ride half a mile but, to be quite frank, this is no bad thing.

Before the caps came in, almost everyone on my local buses used a day or longer ticket. The £2 cap meant 2 journeys was less than the most common day ticket so most people now pay singe fares and boarding has slowed enormously.

Keighley has an experimental £1 fare zone for about 1.5 miles round it (though extending that far again to the local hospital). The local town day ticket which covers the same area except the extension to the hospital has increased from £3.20 to £4.00 since the £2 single fare cap came in. A Countywide multi-operator ticket is £5/(£45 for 10).

 

[Ghostbus]

The disadvantage of lots of short journeys is the extended journey time and the feeling of 'always stopping' to longer distance travellers. Just like a frequent stop train service.

It's more complicated than that.

From my house, I've got no less than five different bus services (same city operator) within a 2 minute walking distance that all head into the city centre via various routes. Namely the most direct one (as the crow flies) and the other four taking not exactly meandering routes, but serving different areas north and south of the most direct one. Only one of these services terminates near me, the others all heading to the very edge of the city, again service different areas.

There is only one express route on this side of this city, in addition to those five services, and unsurprisingly it is on the most direct route. But it doesn't exist to serve the city, it is an express in the city because it serves towns and villages beyond the city limits. It isn't remotely as frequent as the city services, so there's no real point in me waiting for it, although I happily get it If it turns up. Because within the city, those direct routes are so heavily used on intermediate stops, the infrequent express is faster.

In real terms, of those five city services, their end to end journey time has as much to do with local geography, namely bus lanes, traffic calming, general traffic, problematic junctions, as it has to do with loadings in intermediate stops. At peak times, the most direct route gets jammed up by both patronage and traffic.

There is one service, not the most direct, that at all times of day is noticeably faster due to both lack of use and favourable road/traffic conditions. If would be warp speed compared to the direct route of there wasn't a routine driver change on the route.

Annoyingly but unsurprisingly, this is the only service that has ever been cut in the face of the commercial pressures of recent years, reducing the frequency by half. So now it's still faster, but only in relative terms. Only if you aren't in a rush. Only if the stars align in terms of your wider schedule, If you're trying to get somewhere for a specific time or connection.

Buses need passengers. And not just end to end travellers.

 

[renegademaster]

The thing with the short fare tickets was that smart but dishonest people memorise a stop a short way away from them and then go the whole journey. Operators are probally glad to see them gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before the caps came in, almost everyone on my local buses used a day or longer ticket. The £2 cap meant 2 journeys was less than the most common day ticket so most people now pay singe fares and boarding has slowed enormously.

It continues to amaze me that bus companies know this but are too conservative/unobservant to note that if they implemented tap-and-cap (even without the "and cap" bit) it would save almost all of that dwell, and Ticketer does it, they just presumably need to turn it on.

OK, if they didn't get people to tap off they'd lose some of the data, but my observation is that a lot of drivers, probably the majority, are just issuing two quid tickets to the terminus anyway - I even recently got one on an X5 (asked for Milton Keynes) with a free transfer at Bedford for Cambridge via the 905!

 

[Teapot42]

It continues to amaze me that bus companies know this but are too conservative/unobservant to note that if they implemented tap-and-cap (even without the "and cap" bit) it would save almost all of that dwell, and Ticketer does it, they just presumably need to turn it on.

It's interesting you comment that Ticketer supports this - not long after they switched to Ticketer, Hulleys announced that they were going to introduce a tap and cap system. However, it never happened and they went very quiet on it. I wonder if there is some issue that is maybe hindering uptake? I believe also that one company (Ensign?) found that people were tapping on with debit cards loaded with 10p, getting a day of travel then when the system tried to take the rest from their card it was declined.

 

[johncrossley]

Brighton & Hove started Tap On Tap Off in September 2019. How can it take more than 5 years for other big companies to follow suit?

 

[Vexed]

I believe also that one company (Ensign?) found that people were tapping on with debit cards loaded with 10p, getting a day of travel then when the system tried to take the rest from their card it was declined.

I don't know much about Ticketer but I don't see how this is an increased risk compared to the current setup where you could buy day ticket? I usually get a 10p pre-authorisation a few minutes after boarding then the actual amount is taken overnight. I doubt many (any?) Ticketer machines do real time authorisations as it would slow card payments down even more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe also that one company (Ensign?) found that people were tapping on with debit cards loaded with 10p, getting a day of travel then when the system tried to take the rest from their card it was declined.

Then you just block the card unless they phone up and cough up.

Ticketer doesn't seem to authorise normal payments either, normally when paying for a paper ticket a 10p authorisation pops up on my phone just as I sit down and the amount corrects overnight. Only Stagecoach who don't use Ticketer seem to authorise the full two quid in one go.

 

[Deerfold]

It continues to amaze me that bus companies know this but are too conservative/unobservant to note that if they implemented tap-and-cap (even without the "and cap" bit) it would save almost all of that dwell, and Ticketer does it, they just presumably need to turn it on.

OK, if they didn't get people to tap off they'd lose some of the data, but my observation is that a lot of drivers, probably the majority, are just issuing two quid tickets to the terminus anyway - I even recently got one on an X5 (asked for Milton Keynes) with a free transfer at Bedford for Cambridge via the 905!

The ticket most people used is multi-operator which probably complicates things as there's an aspiration to allow multi-operator capping.

My local operator does tap and cap (though doesn't really promote it - I never got into the habit of using it as it's not clear that they cap at all their available day ticket prices and they don't offer the discounts they do on their app.).

I suspect they didn't go large with tap and cap as they'd managed to get almost everyone who didn't get free travel using apps, just scanning a barcode and didn't forsee most people going back to buying singles.

 

[Kite159]

Then you just block the card unless they phone up and cough up.

Ticketer doesn't seem to authorise normal payments either, normally when paying for a paper ticket a 10p authorisation pops up on my phone just as I sit down and the amount corrects overnight. Only Stagecoach who don't use Ticketer seem to authorise the full two quid in one go.

However, if that passenger was using one of those pre-paid debit cards with only 10p as the balance before effectively throwing it away would blocking that card do anything (assuming the passenger did throw it away to acquire another pre-paid debit card)

Similar when you have a mobile phone and you block cold callers, only to carry on getting calls as they change the number in which they phone you up with.

 

[Teapot42]

However, if that passenger was using one of those pre-paid debit cards with only 10p as the balance before effectively throwing it away would blocking that card do anything (assuming the passenger did throw it away to acquire another pre-paid debit card)

Not that I've tried it, but I believe some cards can generate a unique ID via the app. Whether it's possible to keep generating new ones I don't know. One of my cards has a thing I have to select if I'm going to collect tickets etc to use a 'known' rather than 'virtual' number.

 

[borage]

I believe also that one company (Ensign?) found that people were tapping on with debit cards loaded with 10p, getting a day of travel then when the system tried to take the rest from their card it was declined.

We're veering off topic, but as I recall the problem was that under the Contactless Transit EMV (Eurocard, Mastercard and Visa) Framework, the card issuers/banks assume liability for unauthorised transactions under £10, but Ensignbus were being swindled by people buying season tickets that cost more than that:

Ensignbus £10 contactless limit and Apple Pay / Google Pay ban

Anyone know what's going on here? 23 July 2022 Important changes to Contactless Payments from 23rd July 2022 Because of a rise in fraud, we regret that we need to change how all types of Contactless payment is used on our network. A reduced £10 Contactless limit will be introduced which may...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Edvid]

As expected, the upcoming Budget will include what happens to the £2 cap.

England £2 bus fare cap future expected to be revealed in Budget - routeone

Details of the future of the £2 bus fare cap in England is expected to be announced in Chancellor Rachel Reeves's budget on 30 October.

www.route-one.net

The future of the £2 bus fare cap in England is expected to be announced at the time of Chancellor Rachel Reeves’s budget on 30 October, sources within the industry have said.

It is understood that representatives of the bus sector in England have been informed that nothing about how the government will deal with the scheme’s planned end on 31 December is to be released until then. That will give participating operators two months to prepare for whatever approach ministers take from 1 January 2025.

Modelling by the Department for Transport on upping the cap to £2.50 or £3 is underway, with operators having been asked to submit data to support that work.

In September, the Confederation of Passenger Transport (CPT) told members that it was supporting data supply and analysis to “make the strongest possible case for continuing the scheme at £2.50 initially.” CPT previously published various options for the future of the bus fare cap mechanism.

What happens beyond 31 December is an increasing quandary for the bus industry in England, with several calls already made for clarity to permit plans to be made for the period beyond that date.

While some businesses have credited the fare cap for contributing to patronage growth, others have questioned the long-term commercial health of the sector if it is constantly reliant on a high degree of public subsidy.

One senior figure has expressed a desire to move away from that position and back towards a largely commercial position, noting that decisions on capital expenditure projects such as fleet investment are difficult to make against a lack of long-term clarity.

Earlier in 2024, then-Managing Director of Safeguard Coaches Andrew Halliday observed that when fares are reduced, it is “exceptionally difficult” for them to be lifted afterwards, with such a challenge magnified by the duration of the cap.

Previous experience of that brought about by a ‘bus war’ saw Safeguard need several years to regain a commercial fare level. It has not participated in the £2 bus fare cap as a result.