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East Coast Timetable Dec 24

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Halish Railway

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Better to just say that all intercity services in and out of King's Cross should be a minimum of 8 carriages. Occupying paths with 5-car sets is just a waste.
Not entirely. A Lumo Class 803 can accommodate 402 passengers in an all standard class layout, whereas an IC225 can accommodate 406 passengers travelling in standard class (plus 129 more first class seats), so near as makes no difference for passengers wishing to travel frugally in standard class.

Ideally any minimums should be based off of seat numbers as not to punish standard class-heavy TOCs like Lumo, whose seemingly short trains can accommodate more passengers than even a pair of Class 220s found elsewhere on the ECML and just marginally less than a pair of 222s operating into St Pancras.

Ideally shorter, standard class-heavy trains should be encouraged for open access operators given the operational flexibility of being able to use the shorter in length, higher-numbered ‘Suburban’ platforms at Kings Cross, as well as the ability to have two shorter trains on the longer platforms in the main shed.
 
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xotGD

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Not entirely. A Lumo Class 803 can accommodate 402 passengers in an all standard class layout, whereas an IC225 can accommodate 406 passengers travelling in standard class (plus 129 more first class seats), so near as makes no difference for passengers wishing to travel frugally in standard class.

Ideally any minimums should be based off of seat numbers as not to punish standard class-heavy TOCs like Lumo, whose seemingly short trains can accommodate more passengers than even a pair of Class 220s found elsewhere on the ECML and just marginally less than a pair of 222s operating into St Pancras.

Ideally shorter, standard class-heavy trains should be encouraged for open access operators given the operational flexibility of being able to use the shorter in length, higher-numbered ‘Suburban’ platforms at Kings Cross, as well as the ability to have two shorter trains on the longer platforms in the main shed.
So a path squandering 132 potential seats, and giving passengers a reduced choice of facilities.

Poor use of capacity.
 

TheBigD

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The Lumo sets have had 8 seats removed to provide extra luggage space. Was 394 seats (plus 4 tip-up and 2 wheelchair spaces) and now seat 386.
 

norbitonflyer

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Lincoln's are booked a 5 car except the 0730 ex Lincoln on a Saturday, and the 1906 ex Kings Cross on a Sunday, which are both booked a 9 car.
Are Lincoln services generally 5, 9 or 10 carriages, and do those sets normally stick to Lincoln or work on other LNER routes? Can Lincoln Central take 9-10 carriage trains?
Lincoln Central can, but the siding at great Northern Terrace where they wait between turns cannot. Which is why only the first from, or last to, Lincoln (which run ECS from/to elsewhere) can be 9-car.
 

800001

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Lincoln Central can, but the siding at great Northern Terrace where they wait between turns cannot. Which is why only the first from, or last to, Lincoln (which run ECS from/to elsewhere) can be 9-car.
And while the 9 car is on platform, doesn’t it hang out across the level crossing?
 

TheBigD

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And while the 9 car is on platform, doesn’t it hang out across the level crossing?
No.
AIUI, it stops with the front off the platform (south end) and the rear carriages platformed.
It blocks the through road (and access to platforms 1 and 2) whilst doing this using platform 3.
Happy to be corrected.
 

Banham7

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No.
AIUI, it stops with the front off the platform (south end) and the rear carriages platformed.
It blocks the through road (and access to platforms 1 and 2) whilst doing this using platform 3.
Happy to be corrected.
Can confirm this. There is an 80X 9-car marker just underneath Pelham Bridge (not entirely visible from the platforms, but it is there), meaning it will block the Up Main line as well. Neither level crossings will be blocked by this move, as Azuma's front end always stop in the platform when heading towards Newark and the rear end never hangs off when terminating at Lincoln. Platform 3 is usually the only platform used by 9-Cars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Lincoln Central can, but the siding at great Northern Terrace where they wait between turns cannot. Which is why only the first from, or last to, Lincoln (which run ECS from/to elsewhere) can be 9-car.
1B90 on Sunday's (except divert days) is a 9-Car service since it forms from an anglo-scot. Generally, a 5-car will always be better for operational reasons, since it hangs off the front at Lincoln. Station staff at Newark always try their best to make sure passengers board the rear 5 carriages, however it can be a tricky task to enforce this.
 
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Class 170101

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Lincoln Central can, but the siding at great Northern Terrace where they wait between turns cannot. Which is why only the first from, or last to, Lincoln (which run ECS from/to elsewhere) can be 9-car.
But could it go forward elsewhere if needed to be a 9 car? Barnetby perhaps?
 

Donny Dave

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Is there enough time between turndown to go to/from Barnetby? Also, if your going that far, why not run it in service to Grimsby or Cleethorpes?
 

HST43257

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Is there enough time between turndown to go to/from Barnetby? Also, if your going that far, why not run it in service to Grimsby or Cleethorpes?
Barnetby is very possible, Grimsby is probably just impossible and Cleethorpes is well out of reach, if we’re fitting it into the 1h30ish at Lincoln
 

Bikeman78

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While I would agree undersized trains are a scourge, it is the planning process here that is dysfunctional.

It ought to be perfectly possible to adequately serve Northallerton, Durham, Berwick etc.. given 2tph to Edinburgh from LNER, 1tph to Edinburgh from XC and 1tph from TPE as far as Newcastle and another TPE service north of Newcastle that is best described as random.

This needs to be done with one simple hourly plan that either accommodates freight or doesn't. Instead, for example the Northbound XC path is running in 6 different slots during the day, multiplying the planning work by about 16 times.

After 5 years of this they’re actually contemplating running even more services to plug gaps of their own making. And to rub it in, most of the existing freight paths are not even used.
Having grown up on the Southern, with its largely clockface timetable, I find the randomness elsewhere quite strange. It's already starting to creep in on Paddington to Cardiff. Some trains randomly stop at Didcot which necessitates an earlier departure from Paddington and screws up the half hourly pattern. If it's worth stopping, then make all of them stop.
 

A S Leib

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Having grown up on the Southern, with its largely clockface timetable, I find the randomness elsewhere quite strange. It's already starting to creep in on Paddington to Cardiff. Some trains randomly stop at Didcot which necessitates an earlier departure from Paddington and screws up the half hourly pattern. If it's worth stopping, then make all of them stop.
1 tph stopping, 1 tph not stopping for most of the day (except the ~08:12, 09:12 and 16:12) doesn't seem massively random. I think in Didcot's case it's that it justifies fast trains to London (there's more journeys between Paddington and Didcot than between Paddington and Canary Wharf, Swindon, Heathrow Terminal 4 or Windsor & Eton Central) but apart from Oxford (and Reading) everywhere else has demand an order of magnitude lower than London from Didcot. The current timetable gives Didcot its needed London service, gives a relatively wide variety of destinations for those who are heading west, and keeps space on other trains for those not going to / from Didcot.

I agree that there should be a clockface timetable, but I don't think all service patterns have to be identical as long as there's a replicable hourly pattern (or 1tp2h for smaller stations like Alnmouth). Having services run nonstop through Durham seems a bit odd to me, though I suspect LNER would rather not have passengers just travelling between Durham and Newcastle on their faster London – Edinburgh services, especially as I had a half-hourly wait there recently (maybe caused by the withdrawn Manchester Airport service?).
 

507020

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York probably needs the second North facing bay restored to keep the Harrogate services away from P10/11 to help.
Infrastructure enhancement!
In the December 2019 timetable at the following link TPE operated an hourly service between Manchester Airport and Newcastle as well as the hourly service between Liverpool Lime Street and Newcastle. As they state that they want the additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour I assume the plan is to restore this hourly service between Manchester Airport and Newcastle.
TPE north of Northallerton is not hourly, or planned to be. Their plan is for Hull, Scarborough, Newcastle, Redcar to take all 4 fast paths from December. Those old ECML rights can therefore be extinguished and go to LNER etc.
Perhaps it should be done on the basis there is one timetable, lasting one hour, not different paths for 20hrs a day, 3 days a week?

There is either an hourly freight path or there isn't.
Assuming you can only ever allow the same hourly timetable would mean utter crush loading half the time and carrying around fresh air the other, with no balance and still wouldn’t provide a freight path.

The 1930s practice of one singular flagship “Coronation” service of the day, which all other traffic has to get out of the way of and freight capacity the rest of the time seems more efficient. What if you can neatly fit everything you could possibly need onto your line, but only if it repeats every 65, 68 or an odd number of minutes and going hourly breaks it?

Perhaps planning could be streamlined by a single 24 hour timetable which runs without fail every day and scrapping the stupidity of coming up with a separate but unusable Sunday timetable.
You can't have a situation where freight access rights are immutable or cost the taxpayer £bn in additional infrastructure to protect.
Why not? This is effectively an inevitability. The national infrastructure not being there to absorb the additional demand isn’t really an option. People complain about “gold plating” but really the strategy should be that every line ALWAYS has a certain percentage of spare capacity to absorb increased passenger/freight demand, to avoid the gridlock where disruptively remodelling Kings Cross provides NO benefits for passengers because the timetable can’t be implemented.

I remember reading that the last infrastructure obstacle to be overcome was the requadrupling at Huntingdon, deferred from subsidence in the 1990s. When is this work scheduled to be completed so the timetable can be introduced?
Connectivity between all major cities is of national importance not just London to Edinburgh.
Connectivity between all city pairs, but not stringing together as many cities as you can a la TPE or XC until you become overwhelmed with overcrowding and can’t work out how to fix it.

Liverpool - Birmingham or Manchester - Cardiff services, calling at major interchanges such as Crewe, but no other settlements as large fulfil this city pair role well (although both have a problem of calling at some stations which are too small for such InterCity services) but Liverpool - Cardiff and Manchester - Birmingham do not, as one doesn’t exist and the other is Diesel under the wires the whole way and runs crush loaded due to through running.

Based on this philosophy, LNER from Kings Cross to Leeds or Newcastle with a reasonable number of stops for connectivity, but not all of them, should always be ok, but I don’t know what to make of extending from Lincoln to Cleethorpes, duplicating an EMR service from Leicester. I’d always expected LNER to Cleethorpes meant via Doncaster.
Likewise XC should be allowed all the AWC 221 so all services are 8 cars min then there would be additional capcity without screwing over any other operator.
Given no bi-modes are available, giving ALL Voyagers over to the CrossCountry services should be the easiest decision in the history of the railway, but what about terminating all of them at York (or Coventry) to eliminate Diesel under the wires and allow them to concentrate on running the unelectrified sections, with some higher capacity electric stock to deal with instead? The present situation doesn’t make a lot of sense.
one simple hourly plan that either accommodates freight or doesn't.
Not one that doesn’t.
Not entirely. A Lumo Class 803 can accommodate 402 passengers in an all standard class layout, whereas an IC225 can accommodate 406 passengers travelling in standard class (plus 129 more first class seats), so near as makes no difference for passengers wishing to travel frugally in standard class.

Ideally any minimums should be based off of seat numbers as not to punish standard class-heavy TOCs like Lumo, whose seemingly short trains can accommodate more passengers
The Pendolino refurbishment increases the number of standard class seats per 11 car path from 444 to 508, a 14% increase on top of greater luggage space. Any amount of first class can effectively be disregarded as irrelevant to the capacity of the train. Being frugal or standard-heavy doesn’t have to come into it, especially when Lumo is single class.
less than a pair of 222s operating into St Pancras.
A 222 operating into St Pancras, whether it is 4 or 5 cars has a whopping 122 standard class seats and is worthy of nothing but scrap, let alone a path into St Pancras or comparison to the far superior Voyagers. Getting to travel on anything other than a 222 is extremely lucky.

An 8 car 360 running in the same path provides 528 standard class seats, a 333% increase. Given that these call twice hourly where 222s only called once, 1056 standard class seats per hour vs 122, a 766% increase, which just proves what is possible for my earlier point.

Yet not even a fraction of that MML figure, or the more modest WCML one is able to be delivered on the ECML, thanks to the timetable deadlock and 4 and 5 car trains.
 

Bald Rick

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I remember reading that the last infrastructure obstacle to be overcome was the requadrupling at Huntingdon, deferred from subsidence in the 1990s. When is this work scheduled to be completed so the timetable can be introduced?
It isnt required for the new timetable
 

Magdalia

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What if you can neatly fit everything you could possibly need onto your line, but only if it repeats every 65, 68 or an odd number of minutes and going hourly breaks it?
I can think of 2 examples where this was done. For a long time the South Eastern lines to Kent ran on a 22 minute interval during the peaks, similarly what's now called West Anglia has run on a 24 minute interval during the peaks. But it can only be done on relatively self contained parts of the network that have spare capacity where they interface with timetables on 20 or 30 minute intervals.
 

Bikeman78

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1 tph stopping, 1 tph not stopping for most of the day (except the ~08:12, 09:12 and 16:12) doesn't seem massively random. I think in Didcot's case it's that it justifies fast trains to London (there's more journeys between Paddington and Didcot than between Paddington and Canary Wharf, Swindon, Heathrow Terminal 4 or Windsor & Eton Central) but apart from Oxford (and Reading) everywhere else has demand an order of magnitude lower than London from Didcot. The current timetable gives Didcot its needed London service, gives a relatively wide variety of destinations for those who are heading west, and keeps space on other trains for those not going to / from Didcot.

I agree that there should be a clockface timetable, but I don't think all service patterns have to be identical as long as there's a replicable hourly pattern (or 1tp2h for smaller stations like Alnmouth). Having services run nonstop through Durham seems a bit odd to me, though I suspect LNER would rather not have passengers just travelling between Durham and Newcastle on their faster London – Edinburgh services, especially as I had a half-hourly wait there recently (maybe caused by the withdrawn Manchester Airport service?).
Which day were you looking at? Today it's a spread of times between xx12 and xx18. They need to pick a time and then stick to it every hour. When the IET timetable came in, all south Wales trains departed at xx18 and xx48. What could be simpler.
 

A S Leib

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Which day were you looking at? Today it's a spread of times between xx12 and xx18. They need to pick a time and then stick to it every hour. When the IET timetable came in, all south Wales trains departed at xx18 and xx48. What could be simpler.
That makes more sense; I was looking at the departure times from Didcot and assumed they were all at the same time at Paddington. I thought you meant that in some hours it was the Cardiff service which served Didcot and the Swansea one in other (interpeak) hours.
 

jayah

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Having grown up on the Southern, with its largely clockface timetable, I find the randomness elsewhere quite strange. It's already starting to creep in on Paddington to Cardiff. Some trains randomly stop at Didcot which necessitates an earlier departure from Paddington and screws up the half hourly pattern. If it's worth stopping, then make all of them stop.
The xx.48 from Paddington on weekdays in the new timetable passes Didcot at xx.24 in each hour.

By Cardiff almost every single train from through to 11pm is in a different path, despite an identical calling pattern.

Similar to the problems here on ECML, lack of discipline and the inability to put the freight into one single hourly path or to remove it during the daytime if such doesnt exist, seems to condemn the entire timetable to run as 16 non-standard hours. This increases the work to plan the timetable by an order of magnitide.
 

LowLevel

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Infrastructure enhancement!

TPE north of Northallerton is not hourly, or planned to be. Their plan is for Hull, Scarborough, Newcastle, Redcar to take all 4 fast paths from December. Those old ECML rights can therefore be extinguished and go to LNER etc.

Assuming you can only ever allow the same hourly timetable would mean utter crush loading half the time and carrying around fresh air the other, with no balance and still wouldn’t provide a freight path.

The 1930s practice of one singular flagship “Coronation” service of the day, which all other traffic has to get out of the way of and freight capacity the rest of the time seems more efficient. What if you can neatly fit everything you could possibly need onto your line, but only if it repeats every 65, 68 or an odd number of minutes and going hourly breaks it?

Perhaps planning could be streamlined by a single 24 hour timetable which runs without fail every day and scrapping the stupidity of coming up with a separate but unusable Sunday timetable.

Why not? This is effectively an inevitability. The national infrastructure not being there to absorb the additional demand isn’t really an option. People complain about “gold plating” but really the strategy should be that every line ALWAYS has a certain percentage of spare capacity to absorb increased passenger/freight demand, to avoid the gridlock where disruptively remodelling Kings Cross provides NO benefits for passengers because the timetable can’t be implemented.

I remember reading that the last infrastructure obstacle to be overcome was the requadrupling at Huntingdon, deferred from subsidence in the 1990s. When is this work scheduled to be completed so the timetable can be introduced?

Connectivity between all city pairs, but not stringing together as many cities as you can a la TPE or XC until you become overwhelmed with overcrowding and can’t work out how to fix it.

Liverpool - Birmingham or Manchester - Cardiff services, calling at major interchanges such as Crewe, but no other settlements as large fulfil this city pair role well (although both have a problem of calling at some stations which are too small for such InterCity services) but Liverpool - Cardiff and Manchester - Birmingham do not, as one doesn’t exist and the other is Diesel under the wires the whole way and runs crush loaded due to through running.

Based on this philosophy, LNER from Kings Cross to Leeds or Newcastle with a reasonable number of stops for connectivity, but not all of them, should always be ok, but I don’t know what to make of extending from Lincoln to Cleethorpes, duplicating an EMR service from Leicester. I’d always expected LNER to Cleethorpes meant via Doncaster.

Given no bi-modes are available, giving ALL Voyagers over to the CrossCountry services should be the easiest decision in the history of the railway, but what about terminating all of them at York (or Coventry) to eliminate Diesel under the wires and allow them to concentrate on running the unelectrified sections, with some higher capacity electric stock to deal with instead? The present situation doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Not one that doesn’t.

The Pendolino refurbishment increases the number of standard class seats per 11 car path from 444 to 508, a 14% increase on top of greater luggage space. Any amount of first class can effectively be disregarded as irrelevant to the capacity of the train. Being frugal or standard-heavy doesn’t have to come into it, especially when Lumo is single class.

A 222 operating into St Pancras, whether it is 4 or 5 cars has a whopping 122 standard class seats and is worthy of nothing but scrap, let alone a path into St Pancras or comparison to the far superior Voyagers. Getting to travel on anything other than a 222 is extremely lucky.

An 8 car 360 running in the same path provides 528 standard class seats, a 333% increase. Given that these call twice hourly where 222s only called once, 1056 standard class seats per hour vs 122, a 766% increase, which just proves what is possible for my earlier point.

Yet not even a fraction of that MML figure, or the more modest WCML one is able to be delivered on the ECML, thanks to the timetable deadlock and 4 and 5 car trains.
Your 222 figures are nonsense which means so are the rest of your percentages, a 2 car class 170/5 has 122 standard class seats. No idea where you've gotten that from.

A 5 car 222 (with the exception of 005/006 and 101-104 which are non standard) has 192 standard class seats and a 7 car has 236 standard class seats.

An 8 car 360 has 560 seats.
 
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The Planner

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The xx.48 from Paddington on weekdays in the new timetable passes Didcot at xx.24 in each hour.

By Cardiff almost every single train from through to 11pm is in a different path, despite an identical calling pattern.

Similar to the problems here on ECML, lack of discipline and the inability to put the freight into one single hourly path or to remove it during the daytime if such doesnt exist, seems to condemn the entire timetable to run as 16 non-standard hours. This increases the work to plan the timetable by an order of magnitide.
It really doesnt....
 
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Point 4.6 of the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 also mentions infrastructure enhancements to create an additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour
In the December 2019 timetable at the following link TPE operated an hourly service between Manchester Airport and Newcastle as well as the hourly service between Liverpool Lime Street and Newcastle. As they state that they want the additional hourly path between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to 2 trains per hour I assume the plan is to restore this hourly service between Manchester Airport and Newcastle.
TPE north of Northallerton is not hourly, or planned to be. Their plan is for Hull, Scarborough, Newcastle, Redcar to take all 4 fast paths from December. Those old ECML rights can therefore be extinguished and go to LNER etc.
I read point 4.6 of the report of the Rail North Committee meeting on 3 September 2024 as referring to a longer term plan to have seven long distance train paths an hour between York and Newcastle to enable the TPE service between Manchester and Newcastle to return to two trains per hour alongside three LNER trains an hour and two XC trains an hour between York and Newcastle
 
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IrishDave

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So I'm guessing TPE's Teesside, Lumo and Grand Central's Sunderland services aren't considered long-distance services there?
My understanding is the 7tph figure applies to Northallerton to Newcastle, rather than York to Newcastle, so the TPE Teesside and GC Sunderland services don't count. Lumo is a fair point though.
 

The Planner

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Care to elaborate on which of the statements you don't agree with and why?
The issues you are stating arent all freight related and a non standard hourly pattern isn't the end of the world to build.
 

jayah

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The issues you are stating arent all freight related and a non standard hourly pattern isn't the end of the world to build.
I didn't say the issues are all freight related, but freight should not be allowed to get in the way of express passenger trains or disrupt an otherwise standard hourly plan.

You say it isn't the end of the world to build 16 hourly timetables in each direction, instead of 1 but this thread exists because how the process does not appear deliver when measured on efficiency, speed or quality. Perhaps it is time to try something different?
 

Clarence Yard

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Why shouldn’t other traffic affect the ability of yet another express train to run?

The ECML exists for the use of many users, not just express passenger trains. Commuters trains, stopping trains that either connect, cross or run part way on the ECML, as well as freight. Peak flows exist at different times at different locations, adding to the complexity.

The obsession with having an exact hourly repeating pattern for all traffic is just that, an obsession. The traffic demands say otherwise and this is the conundrum that the ECML planners have to deal with. And they have to ensure that they don’t adversely affect nearby lines or stations, such as Nottingham or Sheffield.

If you add in a DfT that is obsessed with putting in extra express trains that may not actually make any financial sense (remember - they are addicted to MOIRA predictions), then it can all get a bit silly, especially if NR try to cram everything in rather than use Part J of the Network Code (the better use provisions), which means they could withdraw existing operators rights, thus freeing up the necessary space.
 

47421

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I didn't say the issues are all freight related, but freight should not be allowed to get in the way of express passenger trains or disrupt an otherwise standard hourly plan.

You say it isn't the end of the world to build 16 hourly timetables in each direction, instead of 1 but this thread exists because how the process does not appear deliver when measured on efficiency, speed or quality. Perhaps it is time to try something different?
yes but isnt the problem that the new TT means that some existing freight flows wont be able to access the East Coast at all, with resulting extended journey times via alternative routes that mean they become uneconomic to operate at all. The argument freight operators make is that if their access rights can be amended so much that they cannot continue to operate profitably then they cannot justify new investment in sidings, staff, locos etc etc because they only make a return on those investments if they know for sure they can operate planned services in the medium term
 

jayah

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Why shouldn’t other traffic affect the ability of yet another express train to run?

The ECML exists for the use of many users, not just express passenger trains. Commuters trains, stopping trains that either connect, cross or run part way on the ECML, as well as freight. Peak flows exist at different times at different locations, adding to the complexity.

The obsession with having an exact hourly repeating pattern for all traffic is just that, an obsession. The traffic demands say otherwise and this is the conundrum that the ECML planners have to deal with. And they have to ensure that they don’t adversely affect nearby lines or stations, such as Nottingham or Sheffield.

If you add in a DfT that is obsessed with putting in extra express trains that may not actually make any financial sense (remember - they are addicted to MOIRA predictions), then it can all get a bit silly, especially if NR try to cram everything in rather than use Part J of the Network Code (the better use provisions), which means they could withdraw existing operators rights, thus freeing up the necessary space.
All users are not equal.

A timetable that puts 20 minutes of pathing time into an Edinburgh to Kings Cross express, which is suppose to be competing with air, is not sensible or a good use of resources. The public want a regular timetable with good connections and respond where these are provided. Between Edinburgh and London there is enormous pent up demand judging by the fact the trains are often full, and at eye watering prices.

There are still of the order of 40 daily flights each way between Edinburgh and London and this is absolutely traffic railway should be competing for. The empty biomass wagons returning to Tyne Dock to collect cargo that has been weeks in transit from North America, can run when the passenger trains have stopped, instead of them waiting for it.
 
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