Advice please - Charged by ScotRail for ticket to GLC via Dumfries due to disruption (26/09)

[MKJai]

Good afternoon, I am writing this post for my friend and would like to have some advice for him.

He took the 0531 Avanti service from Euston to Glasgow by using Advance Single ticket, but the train terminated at Carlisle due to a fallen tree causing the all lines blocked further North. As a result he took the 0954 ScotRail service to Glasgow via Dumfries.

He was then charged for an extra ScotRail ticket due to no valid ticket for this, but I guess he could still use that service under NRCoT 28.2:

28.2 Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

I am thinking if he should send an email to ScotRail/Avanti requesting a refund. I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks.

 

[Nova1]

Looking through twitter, I'm not sure if any ticket acceptance was organised between ScotRail and Avanti West Coast. This would be a blanket "we'll accept your tickets on another operator".

28.2 Generally would require you to gain permission from another ToC, you can't just jump on another train.
Avanti West Coast did also issue a Do Not Travel north of Preston at about 10am today which I believe would withdraw all ticket acceptance.

 

[alex17595]

Avanti posted this on Facebook at 0933 this morning.

Do Not Travel north of Preston.
We are advising customers not to travel north of Preston due to a tree being caught in the overhead electric wires between Motherwell and Lockerbie which is blocking all lines.
Ticket acceptance remains in place with:
LNER - Between Edinburgh and London Kings Cross
Scotrail - Between Edinburgh and Glasgow Queen Street
CrossCountry - Between Edinburgh and Birmingham New St
Northern - Between Carlisle and Newcastle
All in both directions until further notice.
Additionally, customers can travel with Transpennine Express via any reasonable route.
Customers who choose not to travel due to today's disruption north of Preston can use their ticket from today (26/09) to travel tomorrow (27/06).
Alternatively, customers can claim a full refund from their point of purchase or, if you travel today and your journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more, you can claim Delay Repay compensation through the operator you travelled with.

 

[DarloRich]

Avanti posted this on Facebook at 0933 this morning.

not much help if you are already north of Preston! The 0530 from Euston must have been somewhere around Shap or Penrith by that time! I would be contacting Scotrail and asking for a refund and Avanti offering them some helpful customer feedback.

( that isn't based on any expertise or knowledge of the "rules" so an expert may be able to offer you something more accurate but it doesn't seem reasonable to me that you should be stranded and have to buy a new ticket in the circumstances )

 

[gray1404]

What time did he arrive in Carlisle and when was the next Avanti service or TPE that left there which he could have travelled on?

 

[MKJai]

Some extra fact for your reference, my friend just informed me that he took that 0954 ScotRail service upon the advice from the Avanti staff at Carlisle

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

What time did he arrive in Carlisle and when was the next Avanti service or TPE that left there which he could have travelled on?

He arrived Carlisle at 0952 and there should be no Avanti/TPE service going further North from Carlisle due to the fallen tree as I have mentioned. Cheers.

 

[gray1404]

Some extra fact for your reference, my friend just informed me that he took that 0954 ScotRail service upon the advice from the Avanti staff at Carlisle

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==


He arrived Carlisle at 0952 and there should be no Avanti/TPE service going further North from Carlisle due to the fallen tree as I have mentioned. Cheers.

If he had waited and not taken the ScotRail service how long would he have been there for?

In that case he had permission to travel from an authorised person. I assume he was not the only passenger charged.

 

[MKJai]

If he had waited and not taken the ScotRail service how long would he have been there for?

In that case he had permission to travel from an authorised person. I assume he was not the only passenger charged.

If he didn't take the 0954 ScotRail, I guess the next possible service would be the 1023 Northern Trains to Newcastle, given that no service was possible via Lockerbie. It would definitely be a long way round to Glasgow.

He told me that all Avanti ticket holders who took that 0954 ScotRail were extra charged.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good afternoon, I am writing this post for my friend and would like to have some advice for him.

He took the 0531 Avanti service from Euston to Glasgow by using Advance Single ticket, but the train terminated at Carlisle due to a fallen tree causing the all lines blocked further North. As a result he took the 0954 ScotRail service to Glasgow via Dumfries.

He was then charged for an extra ScotRail ticket due to no valid ticket for this, but I guess he could still use that service under NRCoT 28.2:


I am thinking if he should send an email to ScotRail/Avanti requesting a refund. I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks.

Surely he should indeed pursue a refund (maybe from Avanti) for the fare owed or hold Scotrail to this NRCoT clause (and Scotrail to refund it) because any other course of action he took would have cost Avanti more I would think - eg getting them to organise alternative transport - or would they have simply expected you to sit tight at Carlisle until the line was cleared and then pay up delay -repay.

Strikes me that as the train was late arriving in Carlisle (about 30 mins if it was today) he made a wise move to speedily get on the scotrail train with only a few minutes to made the decision to do that to get on his way.

Were they charged an Anytime Day Single Carlist to Glasgow via Dumfries £25.70 or Off Peak any permitted single £22.60 ?

Presume they can also claim Delay-Repay from Avanti for the original Advance Single bought as even if a the swift change to the Scotrail train had not related in a new ticket the delayed arrival in Glasgow via that route would have been notably later than the Avanti scheduled arrival time in Glasgow

 

[MKJai]

Surely he should indeed pursue a refund (maybe from Avanti) for the fare owed or hold Scotrail to this NRCoT clause (and Scotrail to refund it) because any other course of action he took would have cost Avanti more I would think - eg getting them to organise alternative transport - or would they have simply expected you to sit tight at Carlisle until the line was cleared and then pay up delay -repay.

Strikes me that as the train was late arriving in Carlisle (about 30 mins if it was today) he made a wise move to speedily get on the scotrail train with only a few minutes to made the decision to do that to get on his way.

Were they charged an Anytime Day Single Carlist to Glasgow via Dumfries £25.70 or Off Peak any permitted single £22.60 ?

Presume they can also claim Delay-Repay from Avanti for the original Advance Single bought as even if a the swift change to the Scotrail train had not related in a new ticket the delayed arrival in Glasgow via that route would have been notably later than the Avanti scheduled arrival time in Glasgow

My friend was extra chared with an Anytime Day Single £25.7 Carlisle to Glasgow via Dumfries.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Per Avanti website, there are a number of ticket acceptances in operation but not Scotrail Carlisle to Glasgow. So there is no claim against Scotrail for breach of a published ticket easement.

Per National Rail Enquiries, the disruption is expected to last all day so there is a claim against Scotrail under NRCoT 28.2.

There is a claim against Avanti under Customer Information Pledge K3. All TOCs subscribe to this but Avanti go a step further and their website includes their Customer Information Pledge Implementation. Against K3, this states

customers should not be required to pay more because of disruption.

My wife recently made a claim against Avanti under this provision. It took three attempts. The first two responses denied the existence of the document. The third response, against a threat to involve a Member of Parliament, agreed the refund.

There is also a claim against Avanti under Article 16 of 1371/2007. Experience on the forum is that TOCs try to deny the existence of this legislation which originated from the EU but is now in UK law.

The passenger has a strong claim for refund of the Scotrail fare either against Scotrail under NRCoT 28.2 or against Avanti under both K3 and Article 16.

Independent of this, he/ can also claim Delay Repay on the Avanti ticket.

 

[MKJai]

Per Avanti website, there are a number of ticket acceptances in operation but not Scotrail Carlisle to Glasgow. So there is no claim against Scotrail for breach of a published ticket easement.

Per National Rail Enquiries, the disruption is expected to last all day so there is a claim against Scotrail under NRCoT 28.2.

There is a claim against Avanti under Customer Information Pledge K3. All TOCs subscribe to this but Avanti go a step further and their website includes their Customer Information Pledge Implementation. Against K3, this states

customers should not be required to pay more because of disruption.

My wife recently made a claim against Avanti under this provision. It took three attempts. The first two responses denied the existence of the document. The third response, against a threat to involve a Member of Parliament, agreed the refund.

There is also a claim against Avanti under Article 16 of 1371/2007. Experience on the forum is that TOCs try to deny the existence of this legislation which originated from the EU but is now in UK law.

The passenger has a strong claim for refund of the Scotrail fare either against Scotrail under NRCoT 28.2 or against Avanti under both K3 and Article 16.

Independent of this, he/ can also claim Delay Repay on the Avanti ticket.

Thanks for this. Before you reply I had already suggested my friend to claim depay repay through Avanti for his original ticket and separately send a formal complaint email to ScotRail for the extra charge and holding them to the NRCot clause 28.2.

not much help if you are already north of Preston! The 0530 from Euston must have been somewhere around Shap or Penrith by that time! I would be contacting Scotrail and asking for a refund and Avanti offering them some helpful customer feedback.

( that isn't based on any expertise or knowledge of the "rules" so an expert may be able to offer you something more accurate but it doesn't seem reasonable to me that you should be stranded and have to buy a new ticket in the circumstances )

You are right. His train had passed Oxenholme while the "Do NOT travel" advice was issued.

 

[greyman42]

Scotrail services on the GSW would of been rammed if ticket acceptance had been granted to Avanti passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scotrail services on the GSW would of been rammed if ticket acceptance had been granted to Avanti passengers.

Better rammed than people stranded.

 

[greyman42]

Better rammed than people stranded.

Perhaps Scotrail did not see it that way.

 

[WesternLancer]

Better rammed than people stranded.

The problem would potentially be people getting stranded at intermediate stations unable to board due to over crowding from Carlisle I guess. And for whom Scotrial would have no intention / desire / budget to then provide an alternative service to get them to their destination. And on a route with a not very frequent service by the looks of it.

I guess this is where Control have to exercise some judgment.

Having said that passengers travelling on tickets with route or time flexibility (eg not Advance tickets) would have had the right to just get on the Scotrail service and not be charged for another ticket I assume.

I see the service is operated by 4 car class 156 trains on that route.

 

[furlong]

There's a lot of misconception about the role of "ticket acceptance". It is an EXTRA non-contractual step that train companies often take, that allows people to travel outside the strict contractual entitlements. The contractual entitlements exist irrespective of whether or not any "ticket acceptance" is arranged or announced. No "ticket acceptance" needs to be arranged when there is already a contractual entitlement. Too often you find staff who think that without "ticket acceptance" there is no contractual entitlement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

The other point is that just because there isn't enough space on a train to take ALL affected passengers doesn't entitle them to choose to take NONE. The fact the passenger was on the train and the company sold him a ticket should be sufficient to show it was reasonably able to assist under 28.2 but chose to breach the contract.

 

[StoneRoad]

Someone else that I know was travelling with Avanti yesterday was temporarily stranded at Preston, as a result of that fallen tree.
Avanti's customer service made a real mess of arranging onward travel and dealing with their passengers ...
They eventually got home nine hours after leaving Euston.

 

[robbeech]

It would be worth telling us where their destination is, if they live in Lockerbie that’s a huge delay, if they live in Thurso, less so.

Someone else that I know was travelling with Avanti yesterday was temporarily stranded at Preston, as a result of that fallen tree.
Avanti's customer service made a real mess of arranging onward travel and dealing with their passengers ...
They eventually got home nine hours after leaving Euston.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps Scotrail did not see it that way.

That's not in their wheelhouse though is it? They can't say "not our problem mate" just because they feel like it, they're under an obligation to provide assistance where they reasonably can, such as in these circumstances.

If they don't like that, perhaps they need to look at withdrawing from the NRCoT. No doubt they'll still expect their own passengers to be allowed to use the services of English TOCs when disrupted of course.

 

[Peter0124]

Seems unreasonable, especially if Avanti didn't provide onward travel (buses, taxis etc) and the only accepted route was Carlisle-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow.

A good few years ago I was trying to get from Manchester to Preston to meet a Virgin service up to Glasgow. There was a dewirement on the Manchester-Preston via Bolton route that day. As there were no via Wigan services at the time of leaving Piccadilly (can't remember if they were also disrupted), that would be sufficient enough to meet my Advance Preston-Glasgow train, I jumped on a Virgin Train service from Manchester to Crewe. My Preston-Glasgow service was one which called at Crewe.

There were no issues with me doing the detour via Crewe and I did not need to buy new tickets seeing as I actively seeked out the train manager on both services telling them that the Manchester-Preston line is blocked and this (to me) seemed the only way to meet my Advance Train.

The advice the staff at Manchester Picc were giving before I did this last minute Crewe thing, was to get a TPE to York, LNER to Edinburgh and across to Glasgow. Well if I had've done that I would've been left in Edinburgh or Glasgow overnight with no onward travel home as it would've taken ages and it was the evening time. So I am glad I followed my own advice.

 

[gray1404]

The OPs friend had permission to travel form the station staff at Carlisle. Or to put it more directly they were acting on staff instruction.

 

[StoneRoad]

It would be worth telling us where their destination is, if they live in Lockerbie that’s a huge delay, if they live in Thurso, less so.

Quite near to if not in Glasgow itself.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Do Not Travel north of Preston.

We are advising customers not to travel north of Preston

Customers who choose not to travel

Well that's a mixed bunch of messages.

We start with an instruction, then it calls it advice, then it's called a choice.

It can't be all three.

 

[MKJai]

Well that's a mixed bunch of messages.

We start with an instruction, then it calls it advice, then it's called a choice.

It can't be all three.

As I have mentioned, these Avanti advices were not useful at all given that his train had passed Oxenholme at that time...

 

[yorkie]

Scotrail are obligated to repay the monies they incorrectly charged all those passengers.

Please let us know how Scotrail respond.

Perhaps Scotrail did not see it that way.

This is not relevant; they can think whatever nonsense they want, but they were obligated to carry those passengers.

 

[Peter0124]

Why did they also charge him the anytime fare? Is that SR service a 'peak' train out of Carlisle?

 

[MKJai]

Thanks for all response to this post. My friend had already sent a complaint email to ScotRail for this issue and requested a full refund of the extra Glasgow via Dumfries ticket.

(For the original Avanti ticket I suggested him to claim back Delay Repay through Avanti's system.)

I will keep all of you posted once I have the ScotRail response.

 

[SuspectUsual]

they were obligated to carry those passengers.

As I understand it, other TOCs are obliged to help where they reasonably can.

If helping means their train becomes overcrowded at departure to the point that their own core passengers at intermediate stations are unable to board, leaving them with an extended wait for the next train on a relatively low frequency route, would this be considered as a reasonable reason as to why they couldn't help (or could limit the number of passengers they were able to help)?

 

[Watershed]

As I understand it, other TOCs are obliged to help where they reasonably can.

If helping means their train becomes overcrowded at departure to the point that their own core passengers at intermediate stations are unable to board, leaving them with an extended wait for the next train on a relatively low frequency route, would this be considered as a reasonable reason as to why they couldn't help (or could limit the number of passengers they were able to help)?

It's not as if there is any case law on this point, so it is impossible to say for sure. But if you do manage to board, the very fact you're onboard demonstrates the train company could reasonably assist you - so they clearly have no grounds for charging you for the "assistance" they've provided.

Of course that's under the proviso that NRCoT 28.2 is actually engaged (i.e. that you would otherwise be stranded, not just delayed).