Advice Needed on Rail Fare Evasion SJPN Fine

[Jlas]

Hi everyone,
I’m seeking some advice regarding a fine I received from the courts due to a prosecution by Chiltern Railways for fare evasion. I travelled with an out-of-date railcard in January from London. The fine paperwork from the court is the first I've heard about the case owing to moving address.
I have a few questions:

1. If I decide to appeal the fine, is it still possible to settle the dispute with Chiltern Railways out of court, or does it have to go through the courts now?
2. In a statement from the ticket inspector, it says that he cautioned me, but this did not happen. What ramifications does this have for the legality of the case?
3. If the conviction is upheld, will it result in a criminal record that would show up on a DBS check (standard or enhanced) and potentially impact my ESTA travel to the United States?

I’m really desperate to avoid a criminal record and am willing to pay the fine if it means resolving this issue. Any insights or advice would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you

 

[Elecman]

Unless you do a Statutory Declaration to the relevant court and that is accepted by the court then you already have a criminal conviction and hence criminal record

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,
I’m seeking some advice regarding a fine I received from the courts due to a prosecution by Chiltern Railways for fare evasion. I travelled with an out-of-date railcard in January from London. The fine paperwork from the court is the first I've heard about the case owing to moving address.
I have a few questions:

1. If I decide to appeal the fine, is it still possible to settle the dispute with Chiltern Railways out of court, or does it have to go through the courts now?
2. In a statement from the ticket inspector, it says that he cautioned me, but this did not happen. What ramifications does this have for the legality of the case?
3. If the conviction is upheld, will it result in a criminal record that would show up on a DBS check (standard or enhanced) and potentially impact my ESTA travel to the United States?

I’m really desperate to avoid a criminal record and am willing to pay the fine if it means resolving this issue. Any insights or advice would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you

Hi and welcome

You are going to need to provide more background (eg a timeline to all this) and probably uploads of anonymised copies of the paperwork you have received to get the best advice

But most importantly -

Has this been to Court (and you have only just found out you have been prosecuted and now already have a court fine and criminal record)?
or
Have you found out they are taking you to court but the court hearing has not yet happened?

Depending on which one of these has happened your next course of action is totally different! It sounds like the former and you have just found out that it went to court, you have been sentenced, found guilty and received a court fine as punishment. Please clarify if that is correct.

 

[alholmes]

To answer your questions:
1. You have already been convicted. As you weren’t aware of the court hearing you can potentially make a Statutory Declaration (SD). If accepted, this basically resets the case and passes it back to Chiltern. That’s your opportunity to see if they will then offer you an out-of-court settlement, otherwise they’ll probably just repeat the prosecution.
2. No ramifications at all. Irrelevant.
3. Depends upon what the charge was - does the paperwork tell you what you’ve been convicted of? Note that you now hold this criminal record. Also note that forum rules do not allow advice on immigration matters.

 

[Haywain]

If the conviction is upheld, will it result in a criminal record that would show up on a DBS check (standard or enhanced) and potentially impact my ESTA travel to the United States?

If you make a Statutory Declaration and are subsequently convicted it will reset the clock on the time when you would have to declare the conviction to 12 months from that date.

 

[Jlas]

Unless you do a Statutory Declaration to the relevant court and that is accepted by the court then you already have a criminal conviction and hence criminal record

Thanks for your reply, yes i will be making a Statutory Declaration to the court.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==

Hi and welcome

You are going to need to provide more background (eg a timeline to all this) and probably uploads of anonymised copies of the paperwork you have received to get the best advice

But most importantly -

Has this been to Court (and you have only just found out you have been prosecuted and now already have a court fine and criminal record)?
or
Have you found out they are taking you to court but the court hearing has not yet happened?

Depending on which one of these has happened your next course of action is totally different! It sounds like the former and you have just found out that it went to court, you have been sentenced, found guilty and received a court fine as punishment. Please clarify if that is correct.

Yes, it has been to court and i was convicted in my absence as I had no knowledge of it. Thanks for your reply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==

To answer your questions:
1. You have already been convicted. As you weren’t aware of the court hearing you can potentially make a Statutory Declaration (SD). If accepted, this basically resets the case and passes it back to Chiltern. That’s your opportunity to see if they will then offer you an out-of-court settlement, otherwise they’ll probably just repeat the prosecution.
2. No ramifications at all. Irrelevant.
3. Depends upon what the charge was - does the paperwork tell you what you’ve been convicted of? Note that you now hold this criminal record. Also note that forum rules do not allow advice on immigration matters.

1. Yes, i will be making a SD and I hope they will be open to an out-of-court settlement. Does anyone know if this has been successful in the past? Also, if it is settled out of court, does that mean there is no criminal record, just a fine paid to the rail company?
2. OK
3. Byelaw no 17 (1) & (2) Railway Byelaws Sec 219, schedule 20 of Transport Act 2000, in accordance with Railway Act 2005.
Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==

If you make a Statutory Declaration and are subsequently convicted it will reset the clock on the time when you would have to declare the conviction to 12 months from that date.

Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==

Is there a time limit from making the Statutory Declaration. I guess it is from when i first found out about the case? Thanks.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply, yes i will be making a Statutory Declaration to the court.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==


Yes, it has been to court and i was convicted in my absence as I had no knowledge of it. Thanks for your reply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==


1. Yes, i will be making a SD and I hope they will be open to an out-of-court settlement. Does anyone know if this has been successful in the past? Also, if it is settled out of court, does that mean there is no criminal record, just a fine paid to the rail company?
2. OK
3. Byelaw no 17 (1) & (2) Railway Byelaws Sec 219, schedule 20 of Transport Act 2000, in accordance with Railway Act 2005.
Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==


Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==

Is there a time limit from making the Statutory Declaration. I guess it is from when i first found out about the case? Thanks.

There is a time limit - IIRC it is 21 days from when you first become aware you were convicted - you can probably check that on the gov.uk web page about Stat Decs

BUT - you need to see some advice about how exactly to do the SD to buy yourself time to agree the out of court settlement with the train company if they will grant one - because other threads show that if you go to the court to do it they can then list the case for immediate hearing and you will just get found guilty again (but that time you will know about it) but there will be no chance to open a dialogue with the train company in order to ask of they will withdraw the prosecution and settle the matter. I think one of the solutions to this problem is to do the SD via solicitors for which there is a nominal fee.

There has been a recent case involving an SD that might help you to read through to get a sense of things - I'll try and find it

It's this one - obv not all the posts will be pertinent to your situation but it may be worth you reading through it

Urgent Help Needed: Thameslink Fare Evasion Notice Received Late Due to Address Change

Hello everyone, I’m seeking urgent advice regarding a Thameslink fare evasion notice and the potential legal consequences. I recently received a Further Steps Notice from the court, dated 26th July 2024, but unfortunately, due to a recent change of address, I only received the letter on 24th...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[furlong]

3. Byelaw no 17 (1) & (2) Railway Byelaws Sec 219, schedule 20 of Transport Act 2000, in accordance with Railway Act 2005.

This makes no sense. Definitely 17 not 18?

Can you post more details?
In particular do you have the full details of the charge? What station? What they wrote?
Do you have full details of the outcome of the case - the sentence? Was there really a fine or just compensation? How was what you had to pay calculated?

Courts have no power to impose a fine for breaches of byelaw 17.

24.
Enforcement
(1) Offence and level of fines
Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and, with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

 

[swt_passenger]

This makes no sense. Definitely 17 not 18?

Can you post more details?
In particular do you have the full details of the charge? What station? What they wrote?
Do you have full details of the outcome of the case - the sentence? Was there really a fine or just compensation? How was what you had to pay calculated?

From post #1 it’s Chiltern, and so ‘from London’ must mean Marylebone. Byelaw 17 rather than 18 as Marylebone is a compulsory ticket area?

 

[Hadders]

You should make a Statutory Declaration at the earliest opportunity. The SD can be made either at a court or at a solicitors office. Anecdotally, it's been said that making the declaration at a solicitors office is preferable as it means they can't re-hear the case immediately.

Once the SD has been accepted the case will be relisted for a hearing at a future date. As soon as the SD is accepted you need to contact Chiltern's Prosecutions department and explain what has happened and ask if they are prepared to offer you an out of court settlement. If they do offer (and you pay) an out of court settlement they will then withdraw the court case. If they don't offer you an out of court settlement then the case will be heard in court where you risk getting convicted.

 

[Jlas]

There is a time limit - IIRC it is 21 days from when you first become aware you were convicted - you can probably check that on the gov.uk web page about Stat Decs

BUT - you need to see some advice about how exactly to do the SD to buy yourself time to agree the out of court settlement with the train company if they will grant one - because other threads show that if you go to the court to do it they can then list the case for immediate hearing and you will just get found guilty again (but that time you will know about it) but there will be no chance to open a dialogue with the train company in order to ask of they will withdraw the prosecution and settle the matter. I think one of the solutions to this problem is to do the SD via solicitors for which there is a nominal fee.

There has been a recent case involving an SD that might help you to read through to get a sense of things - I'll try and find it

It's this one - obv not all the posts will be pertinent to your situation but it may be worth you reading through it

Urgent Help Needed: Thameslink Fare Evasion Notice Received Late Due to Address Change

Hello everyone, I’m seeking urgent advice regarding a Thameslink fare evasion notice and the potential legal consequences. I recently received a Further Steps Notice from the court, dated 26th July 2024, but unfortunately, due to a recent change of address, I only received the letter on 24th...

www.railforums.co.uk

Very useful, will read up on that now, thanks.

 

[Jlas]

This makes no sense. Definitely 17 not 18?

Can you post more details?
In particular do you have the full details of the charge? What station? What they wrote?
Do you have full details of the outcome of the case - the sentence? Was there really a fine or just compensation? How was what you had to pay calculated?

Courts have no power to impose a fine for breaches of byelaw 17.

Good morning, this is the charge sheet:

1. That you on ** between Maylebone and ** stations did contravene Byelaw no 17 (1) of the Railway Byelaws made under section 219 and schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000 in accordance with the Railways Act 2005, in that you entered a train in a compulsory ticket area for the purpose of travelling on the Railway without having with you a valid ticket entitling you to travel.
2. On ** between Marylebone and ** stations you did contravene Byelaw no 17 (2) of the Railway Byelaws made under section 219 and schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000 in accordance with the Railways Act 2005, you were stopped in a compulsory ticket area and were unable to show a valid ticket for your rail journey.

Found guilty, the fine is £500 consists of ticket fee, company admin fee, income assessment and donation to charity.

Hope that makes sense to you, thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2024 ==

You should make a Statutory Declaration at the earliest opportunity. The SD can be made either at a court or at a solicitors office. Anecdotally, it's been said that making the declaration at a solicitors office is preferable as it means they can't re-hear the case immediately.

Once the SD has been accepted the case will be relisted for a hearing at a future date. As soon as the SD is accepted you need to contact Chiltern's Prosecutions department and explain what has happened and ask if they are prepared to offer you an out of court settlement. If they do offer (and you pay) an out of court settlement they will then withdraw the court case. If they don't offer you an out of court settlement then the case will be heard in court where you risk getting convicted.

That is very helpful, I will start looking for a solicitor. Thanks.

 

[furlong]

What is the exact breakdown of the £500? The station names do matter too. Where were you stopped? On a train or at which station? If on a train was it moving at the time? Also does the paperwork show whether or not the case was brought using the SJP?

The court had no power to impose a penalty for a breach of byelaw 17. Any competent railway prosecutor would know that.

 

[Jlas]

What is the exact breakdown of the £500? The station names do matter too. Where were you stopped? On a train or at which station? If on a train was it moving at the time? Also does the paperwork show whether or not the case was brought using the SJP?

The court had no power to impose a penalty for a breach of byelaw 17. Any competent railway prosecutor would know that.

I will find out the breakdown of the cost. I was stopped on a train that was moving between Marylebone & Beaconsfield.

It was through the Single Justice Service, and a SJPN has been issued to me.

Can you explain why the court cannot impose a penalty for a breach of byelaw 17?

Thanks for your help

 

[AlterEgo]

I will find out the breakdown of the cost. I was stopped on a train that was moving between Marylebone & Beaconsfield.

It was through the Single Justice Service, and a SJPN has been issued to me.

Can you explain why the court cannot impose a penalty for a breach of byelaw 17?

Thanks for your help

The Bylaw is only enforceable by getting you to leave the railway at the time of the offence, and not by a fine.

 

[Jlas]

The Bylaw is only enforceable by getting you to leave the railway at the time of the offence, and not by a fine.

That is very interesting.

Would this then void the whole case?

Do you have a link to any case law or legal document which would confirm this and allow me to understand all the legal jargon?

Thank you

 

[AlterEgo]

That is very interesting.

Would this then void the whole case?

Do you have a link to any case law or legal document which would confirm this and allow me to understand all the legal jargon?

Thank you

Railway Bylaws: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79c14b40f0b66d161ade8c/railway-byelaws.pdf

24. Enforcement

(1) Offence and level of fines Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and, with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

You note that Bylaw 17 does not have a legal punishment and is explicitly exempt from a fine in court. There are no punishments available for it. The only redress is you being made to leave the railway.

 

[Jlas]

Railway Bylaws: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79c14b40f0b66d161ade8c/railway-byelaws.pdf

24. Enforcement

(1) Offence and level of fines Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and, with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

You note that Bylaw 17 does not have a legal punishment and is explicitly exempt from a fine in court. There are no punishments available for it. The only redress is you being made to leave the railway.

Well that is very interesting! If it doesnt have a legal punishment then is it civil? im still confused sorry as to how it has been taken to court and how ive been found guilty by a judge if there is no legal punishment.

Does anyone have any advice on how i should now proceed?

Contact a solicitor? Inform the court? Contact Chiltern? All of the above?

Thank you for your help

 

[furlong]

And how did the incident unfold?

For example:
Were you asked to show you ticket? Was it on paper or on your phone? Where did you buy it from? (E.g. eticket from trainline; paper ticket from machine at Marylebone?)
Did you show your ticket?
Were you asked to show your railcard?
Did you show your railcard?
Did the inspector then point out it was out-of-date?
How long before that did it expire?
Was the only problem with your ticket that the railcard had expired?

 

[Jlas]

And how did the incident unfold?

For example:
Were you asked to show you ticket? Was it on paper or on your phone? Where did you buy it from? (E.g. eticket from trainline; paper ticket from machine at Marylebone?)
Did you show your ticket?
Were you asked to show your railcard?
Did you show your railcard?
Did the inspector then point out it was out-of-date?
How long before that did it expire?
Was the only problem with your ticket that the railcard had expired?

1.Asked to show tickets on train.
2.Ticket was on my phone.
3. Bought on trainline app, purchased before travel
4. I showed the E ticket
5. Was asked for railcard
6. Showed, but realised it was out of date, by almost a month. Purchased new railcard 2 weeks later before next journey.
7. Yes, only issue was railcard had expired, which i believe made the train ticket invalid.

Hope this help, thanks

 

[Cantab26]

The court had no power to impose a penalty for a breach of byelaw 17. Any competent railway prosecutor would know that.

This is incorrect. There is no power to levy a fine, but other sentences and ancillary orders may be handed down.

Can you explain why the court cannot impose a penalty for a breach of byelaw 17?

The court can.

The Bylaw is only enforceable by getting you to leave the railway at the time of the offence, and not by a fine.

This is not quite correct: the Byelaw can be enforced by way of report for prosecution and, on conviction, sentences and ancillary orders other than a fine are available.

Would this then void the whole case?

No. Even if the sentence is void in part that is separate to whether the conviction is sound.

You note that Bylaw 17 does not have a legal punishment and is explicitly exempt from a fine in court. There are no punishments available for it. The only redress is you being made to leave the railway.

As above, this is incorrect as a matter of law.

Well that is very interesting! If it doesnt have a legal punishment then is it civil? im still confused sorry as to how it has been taken to court and how ive been found guilty by a judge if there is no legal punishment.

No, this is a criminal matter. The fact that a fine may not be levied as a punishment does not change the fact that the offence exists in law and can be prosecuted.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is not quite correct: the Byelaw can be enforced by way of report for prosecution and, on conviction, sentences and ancillary orders other than a fine are available.

Thanks. I think it would help if the OP could clarify what exactly the “fine” is in this case, as it isn’t clear. Uploading the paperwork might help.

 

[John Palmer]

This is not quite correct: the Byelaw can be enforced by way of report for prosecution and, on conviction, sentences and ancillary orders other than a fine are available.

The possibility that ancillary orders might follow conviction had occurred to me, but the question that remains is what sentences can be imposed, given that Byelaw 24(1) specifically excepts Byelaw 17 from the provision that "a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale" can be imposed for each proven byelaw offence?

Byelaw 24(2) then goes on to make provision for ejection from the railway of a person reasonably believed to be in breach of the byelaws. This suggests to me that Byelaw 24 is intended to provide a comprehensive statement of the sanctions available for byelaw breach.

 

[Cantab26]

The possibility that ancillary orders might follow conviction had occurred to me, but the question that remains is what sentences can be imposed, given that Byelaw 24(1) specifically excepts Byelaw 17 from the provision that "a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale" can be imposed for each proven byelaw offence?

Byelaw 24(2) then goes on to make provision for ejection from the railway of a person reasonably believed to be in breach of the byelaws. This suggests to me that Byelaw 24 is intended to provide a comprehensive statement of the sanctions available for byelaw breach.

An order for discharge would be available in these circumstances, which then enables the ancillary orders to be imposed.

The precise ‘menu’ available depends on whether the discharge is absolute or conditional.

The key point is that it is quite wrong to suggest that Byelaw 17 cannot be enforced by way of prosecution: there is expressly a substantive offence.

 

[John Palmer]

The key point is that it is quite wrong to suggest that Byelaw 17 cannot be enforced by way of prosecution: there is expressly a substantive offence.

Agreed.

“What? that thing of silk,
Sporus, that mere white curd of ass’s milk?
Satire or sense, alas! can Sporus feel?
Who breaks a Butterfly upon a Wheel?”

 

[Cantab26]

Agreed.

“What? that thing of silk,
Sporus, that mere white curd of ass’s milk?
Satire or sense, alas! can Sporus feel?
Who breaks a Butterfly upon a Wheel?”

Ah, but if we have only wheels then are we simply to allow the perfidious butterfly to go free?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Unfortunately, I have no literary quotes!

In the English legal system, if a byelaw does not have an associated enforcement mechanism explicitly stated, it doesn't mean the court has no options upon a finding of guilt. The court still retains inherent powers to impose penalties and remedies.

1. In the absence of a specific penalty outlined in the byelaw itself, the court may refer to default penalties provided in the enabling legislation under which the byelaw was made. Many enabling acts include provisions for default penalties for byelaw breaches, often setting a maximum fine. I haven't got time to trawl the Transport Act nor the SI to find the enabling legislation to see if any penalties are stated.

2. Even without a default penalty in the enabling act, the court retains inherent powers to impose a penalty it deems appropriate and proportionate to the offence. This could include a fine or other order.

3. Notwithstanding the above, Common Law and Case Law are also there to fall back on.

I can see an enthusiastic clerk rubbing their hands together in glee if this lands up as a question in court. Likewise, a less engaged clerk will be emitting a large sigh.

 

[Jlas]

Thanks. I think it would help if the OP could clarify what exactly the “fine” is in this case, as it isn’t clear. Uploading the paperwork might help.

Hello, this is the break down of the fine
1. £15.30 fare
2. £175 CR admin fee
3. £220 Income assessment
4. £88 charity

 

[furlong]

We'd normally say showing the e-ticket satisfies 17(2) - seems unlikely that offence could have been made out in the circumstances described.

CTAs are in a bit of a mess at the moment, but it's probably fair to argue that if the notices were in place, there was a breach of 17(1) at Marylebone station before boarding the train - but I'd suggest the compensation for that in terms of the offence would be limited in value to the cost of a platform ticket. (Payment for any subsequent travel would be for the civil courts to enforce.)

 

[Jlas]

Thank you all for your help and literary flair!

Ill be honest, i was confused before and now im totally bewildered

Especially with byelaw 17 and the fine imposed.

If anyone has the time or patience to sum up my situation in laymans terms then that would be great