Super Off-Peak tickets are valid on this service if...

[TUC]

The smaller of the departure board screens at Kings Cross tonight had the following message for the 1848 Hull Trains Kings Cross-Beverley. 'Super Off-Peak tickets are valid on this service if'-and that was all. The screen never rotated to complete the second half of the sentence.

I asked at the information desk what it might be and they were puzzled. I asked the guard for the 1848 and she was equally puzzled, but was clear that they are not valid (which was my understanding as the service is before 1859).

Anyone know what it might be referring to, or is it simply an error?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Isn't it something like "if you are unsure, please contact the Train Manager" etc?

 

[TUC]

Isn't it something like "if you are unsure, please contact the Train Manager" etc?

The 'if' was lower case, so the continuance of a sentence.

 

[cool110]

Most tickets priced by Hull Trains from the other side of London have a slightly earlier cut-off of 1849, although that would still bar that train.

 

[takno]

Wouldn't they be valid if they were cross London tickets with the restriction on the other leg?

 

[Ralph Ayres]

...they are.

Unhelpful I know, but as the validity is defined by any restriction on the particular A to B journey being made plus any Train Company or route specific restrictions, it's about the only wording that would be definitively correct.

 

[alistairlees]

The smaller of the departure board screens at Kings Cross tonight had the following message for the 1848 Hull Trains Kings Cross-Beverley. 'Super Off-Peak tickets are valid on this service if'-and that was all. The screen never rotated to complete the second half of the sentence.

I asked at the information desk what it might be and they were puzzled. I asked the guard for the 1848 and she was equally puzzled, but was clear that they are not valid (which was my understanding as the service is before 1859).

Anyone know what it might be referring to, or is it simply an error?

A correct completion of this sentence would be

Super Off-Peak tickets are valid on this service if they are for "Any Permitted" route and it is a Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Bank Holiday; or if they are "Hull Trains only" and it is a Saturday, Sunday, or Bank Holiday.

I don't see how they are valid on a Wednesday though.

 

[mangyiscute]

Except some super off peak tickets may be valid, for example: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=PNZ&dest=HUL&rlc=YNG&ldn=1&tkt=SSS
The only restriction on that ticket is that you must arrive at Paddington after 11:35, so clearly taking the 18:48 out of King's Cross would be totally fine.
However, the train companies want people to think that trains are "off peak" or "super off peak" when this is just completely wrong.

 

[alistairlees]

Except some super off peak tickets may be valid, for example: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=PNZ&dest=HUL&rlc=YNG&ldn=1&tkt=SSS
The only restriction on that ticket is that you must arrive at Paddington after 11:35, so clearly taking the 18:48 out of King's Cross would be totally fine.
However, the train companies want people to think that trains are "off peak" or "super off peak" when this is just completely wrong.

Indeed, I was just looking for some examples that broke the rule.

 

[Starmill]

I'm pretty sure Hull Trains Only Super Off Peak tickets did used to be valid on that service, even though inter-available ones weren't.

 

[Watershed]

I'm pretty sure Hull Trains Only Super Off Peak tickets did used to be valid on that service, even though inter-available ones weren't.

A bit like how WMR/LNR only Off-Peak fares are valid out of Euston in the evening peak, whilst Any Permitted ones beyond MK/Northampton mostly aren't.

Of course on a Friday the situation is reversed, with the Any Permitted being valid all day but the WMR/LNR only still having restrictions!

 

[TUC]

Except some super off peak tickets may be valid, for example: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=PNZ&dest=HUL&rlc=YNG&ldn=1&tkt=SSS
The only restriction on that ticket is that you must arrive at Paddington after 11:35, so clearly taking the 18:48 out of King's Cross would be totally fine.
However, the train companies want people to think that trains are "off peak" or "super off peak" when this is just completely wrong.

It does seem very random what restriction codes apply to which Super Off-Peak fares. The ticket I had yesterday was for Salisbury-Huddersfield, for which code 9D, with the usual not valid out of London Terminals in the evening until after 1859 (and multiple variations) applies

 

[Watershed]

It does seem very random what restriction codes apply to which Super Off-Peak fares. The ticket I had yesterday was for Salisbury-Huddersfield, for which code 9D, with the usual not valid out of London Terminals in the evening until after 1859 (and multiple variations) applies

It's not quite as random once you understand the logic. Salisbury is in the Network Area so the so-called "Network Rule" suggests that there are no restrictions between Salisbury and London, but the normal restrictions apply between London and Huddersfield. The reason why the restrictions are different from Westbury, Exeter, Penzance etc. is that these are outside the Network Area - so restrictions would apply to the journey between there and London, but not between London and Hull.

Sadly the Network Rule is no longer definitive as there are exceptions to the "rule" (notably for journeys involving Avanti, who effectively ignore it where they set the fare).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly the Network Rule is no longer definitive as there are exceptions to the "rule" (notably for journeys involving Avanti, who effectively ignore it where they set the fare).

What fares do Avanti set from MKC (the only possible applicable station, being the only one that isn't Euston that they call at* within the Network Area) that involve travel via London where they are the potentially unrestricted "Network" bit? I can't think of any, they are usually set by WMT or the TOC on the other side of London (or occasionally XC).

* They don't do a random late night Northampton call any more, do they?

 

[Watershed]

What fares do Avanti set from MKC (the only possible applicable station, being the only one that isn't Euston that they call at* within the Network Area) that involve travel via London where they are the potentially unrestricted "Network" bit? I can't think of any, they are usually set by WMT or the TOC on the other side of London (or occasionally XC).

* They don't do a random late night Northampton call any more, do they?

I was thinking more of flows like Westbury to Rugby, which (when bought in that direction) would have time restrictions between Westbury and London (but not London and Rugby) if the Network Area Rule were being followed. In practice it only has restrictions between London and Rugby, regardless of which way round it's bought.

Incidentally this is another area where LNER's abolition of returns has worsened matters - even though they generally follow the Rule for flows they price, you now have no choice but to buy two separate singles in each direction. The result: different sets of time restrictions for your outward and return journeys. This is "simple", remember!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was thinking more of flows like Westbury to Rugby, which (when bought in that direction) would have time restrictions between Westbury and London (but not London and Rugby) if the Network Area Rule were being followed. In practice it only has restrictions between London and Rugby, regardless of which way round it's bought.

Incidentally this is another area where LNER's abolition of returns has worsened matters - even though they generally follow the Rule for flows they price, you now have no choice but to buy two separate singles in each direction. The result: different sets of time restrictions for your outward and return journeys. This is "simple", remember!

Rugby isn't in the Network Area, that'll be why

The boundary is Long Buckby, or if going via the fasts MKC.

I thought the Network Rule always resulted in the NSE bit not having the restrictions, or should. Thus it always being the Westbury-London bit that is unrestricted is correct (Westbury is in the area, right?)

If LNER are doing it asymmetrically then it's them that's doing it wrong.

 

[Watershed]

Rugby isn't in the Network Area, that'll be why

The boundary is Long Buckby, or if going via the fasts MKC.

I agree. But under the Network Area Rule, if travelling between two stations outside the Network Area, only the journey from the origin to London should be restricted. Hence in the example, only the Westbury to London journey should be restricted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. But under the Network Area Rule, if travelling between two stations outside the Network Area, only the journey from the origin to London should be restricted. Hence in the example, only the Westbury to London journey should be restricted.

That's not how it generally works. It generally works that the NSE component is unrestricted and the IC component is restricted (and that's been how it is for every one of these I've ever used). If any TOC isn't doing that it's them that's doing it wrong.

(This asymmetric thing may apply to journeys entirely within NSE though?)

Edit: Oh, you're saying a cross London journey where both ends aren't in NSE? That isn't really what the Network Rule is for - it's not relevant to that sort of journey at all. It's a rule that applies where there's an "A to London" component within NSE, and a "B to IC destination" one outside it, or vice versa, and the "rule" is that the component wholly within NSE is unrestricted and the one that goes outside is. It's called the Network Rule specifically because it involves Network SouthEast, which a through IC journey across London doesn't.

There might have been another convention of what you say, though, which is no longer adhered to, but I'd not call that the Network Rule as it doesn't involve Network SouthEast, rather it involves two IC services.

 

[Kite159]

Rugby isn't in the Network Area, that'll be why

The boundary is Long Buckby, or if going via the fasts MKC.

I thought the Network Rule always resulted in the NSE bit not having the restrictions, or should. Thus it always being the Westbury-London bit that is unrestricted is correct (Westbury is in the area, right?)

If LNER are doing it asymmetrically then it's them that's doing it wrong.

Westbury isn't in the former NSE area. Furtherest west on the line from paddington is bedwyn & Salisbury from the South.

 

[jupiter]

This whole ridiculously convoluted and complex system needs ditching in favour of one that mere mortals can understand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Westbury isn't in the former NSE area. Furtherest west on the line from paddington is bedwyn & Salisbury from the South.

Yeah, I think I misunderstood - the OP was referring to the convention that on a ticket crossing London that isn't fully in the NSE area on one side has restrictions only past London, which is something a bit different to the traditional Network Rule.

There are exceptions to the actual Network Rule involving Stevenage, though, I believe, having Googled for threads. But none I know of involving Avanti because I don't think they set any fares going south from MKC other than their dedicated Euston ones. Certainly all fares I've used from MKC/Bletchley involving the Network Rule have stuck to it - including the one I'm going to use tomorrow!

 

[Haywain]

Westbury is in the area, right?

Wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

There are exceptions to the actual Network Rule involving Stevenage, though, I believe, having Googled for threads.

There are also exceptions to it for journeys from the south MML as there are now restrictions on arriving into St Pancras, Farringdon etc.

 

[Starmill]

Yeah, I think I misunderstood - the OP was referring to the convention that on a ticket crossing London that isn't fully in the NSE area on one side has restrictions only past London, which is something a bit different to the traditional Network Rule.

There are exceptions to the actual Network Rule involving Stevenage, though, I believe, having Googled for threads. But none I know of involving Avanti because I don't think they set any fares going south from MKC other than their dedicated Euston ones. Certainly all fares I've used from MKC/Bletchley involving the Network Rule have stuck to it - including the one I'm going to use tomorrow!

Part of the original reason was so that the same journey on one ticket wasn't restricted to and from London, just one or the other.

Now both can be restricted.

 

[Krokodil]

This whole ridiculously convoluted and complex system needs ditching in favour of one that mere mortals can understand.

Would be a start if it was one which the staff could understand.

 

[kieron]

There are exceptions to the actual Network Rule involving Stevenage, though, I believe, having Googled for threads. But none I know of involving Avanti because I don't think they set any fares going south from MKC other than their dedicated Euston ones. Certainly all fares I've used from MKC/Bletchley involving the Network Rule have stuck to it - including the one I'm going to use tomorrow!

Avanti set some fares between stations south of Rugby and stations outside the Network Area, including a few from Milton Keynes. They usually use their own restriction codes for this, but (again, usually) do it in a way which respects the Network Rule.

It's in their interests to do so. If you had (say) a Wembley Central-Langwathby off peak ticket which restricted when you could travel into London, you could catch any train you like going north from Wembley. As it has a 9I restriction code, you'll encounter peak restrictions going north whether you go via London or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm intrigued now - which fares do Avanti set from MKC that involve going via London? I can't think of any.

I think there probably are more +LONDON ones that involve the double back from Watford.