TPE Newcastle to York penalty fare

[JSorr]

Hi,

I bought an advanced single for 14:44 but due to my dyscalculia misread it as 13:44 and accidentally boarded the wrong train.

Got as far as Durham then fined.

If it’s useful I had sat through 4 hours of masters workshops and was unable to eat and was very tired & not thinking properly. What’s the chance of winning an appeal?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi,

I bought an advanced single for 14:44 but due to my dyscalculia misread it as 13:44 and accidentally boarded the wrong train.

Got as far as Durham then fined.

If it’s useful I had sat through 4 hours of masters workshops and was unable to eat and was very tired & not thinking properly. What’s the chance of winning an appeal?

Welcome to the forum.

In general, I would not see your chances of success as good: the essential rule is that advance tickets are only valid on the train they were sold for.

To my mind, there are two possible routes that you could argue in an appeal
- that some technicality or another means that the penalty fare was not correctly issued. Others will no doubt be along shortly to explore the possibilities of the penalty being issued in the wrong amount, the signage where you boarded the train not being correct and so on. I'm not a fan of this approach, but will observe that success using it seems limited and will almost certainly require persistence through all three stages of the appeal process.
- that your discalculia forms a compelling reason why the penalty fare is unfair. I imagine that this would be in line with the railway making reasonable adjustments to cope with your disability, but in practice it seems to me that you would need to demonstrate that your disability is so severe that you cannot be expected to identify the time shown on a ticket as against the time that the train is operating. And as above, this would be a fairly complex argument to make and I wouldn't expect success until reaching the third stage of the appeal process.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Got as far as Durham then fined.

How much have you now been asked to pay? Some fare amount plus an admin fee or penalty fare? Does the total amount requested get reduced by £50 if paid promptly?

 

[greyman42]

I imagine that this would be in line with the railway making reasonable adjustments to cope with your disability, but in practice it seems to me that you would need to demonstrate that your disability is so severe that you cannot be expected to identify the time shown on a ticket as against the time that the train is operating.

That being the case, the railway may argue that you should buy an anytime ticket.

 

[SuspectUsual]

That being the case, the railway may argue that you should buy an anytime ticket.

I don’t believe that’s remotely reasonable, as it would essentially be asking someone with a disability to place themselves at a financial disadvantage which is clearly unfair.

However, were I the TOC dealing with an argument around discalculia causing a mistake to be made I might wonder how many advance tickets the OP had bought previously and how many of them had been used incorrectly. If it was none, or a very small proportion, I might wonder why this occasion was so different

 

[JSorr]

I don’t believe that’s remotely reasonable, as it would essentially be asking someone with a disability to place themselves at a financial disadvantage which is clearly unfair.

However, were I the TOC dealing with an argument around discalculia causing a mistake to be made I might wonder how many advance tickets the OP had bought previously and how many of them had been used incorrectly. If it was none, or a very small proportion, I might wonder why this occasion was so different

Hi, first thanks everyone for your responses they’ve been helpful and insightful.

Some extra info and to address this point directly.

I haven’t previously bought an advanced single, I ordinarily travel by bus or car, rarely by train. I ordinarily purchase an anytime ticket, but due to the frequency of this trip I opted for the advanced single.

Regarding the fee

It’s £124.50 or £74.50 if I pay within 21 days.

If it is relevant (although I may doubt it) the service I traveled on was cheaper than the one I initially booked.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@JSorr. Can you upload a pic of whatever you've been issued with? Please be sure to obscure or cover up your name and address + any penalty fare reference number?

 

[JSorr]

Find attached
(They are freakishly long so I split it in two photos)

 

[azOOOOOma]

I would hope that they would look favourably at your claim but I have a nasty suspicion that they will say you bought an advance for a cheaper train, didn’t fancy paying the anytime single for the train you boarded and now, having been caught are using a medical condition to your advantage to get out of paying. However it is definitely worth trying to appeal.

I’d imagine it will be very difficult for them to look back and see exactly ever prices were being charged on each service at any one time but even if your train was cheaper then they’ll hide behind the ‘booked train only’ thing.

 

[JSorr]

I would hope that they would look favourably at your claim but I have a nasty suspicion that they will say you bought an advance for a cheaper train, didn’t fancy paying the anytime single for the train you boarded and now, having been caught are using a medical condition to your advantage to get out of paying. However it is definitely worth trying to appeal.

I’d imagine it will be very difficult for them to look back and see exactly ever prices were being charged on each service at any one time but even if your train was cheaper then they’ll hide behind the ‘booked train only’ thing.

Apologies, there may have been an error in my explanation

The 14:44 ticket (which I initially bought) cost more than the 13:44 train which I accidentally travelled on.

Hope that clears it up, and thank you so much to everyone for your advice and guidance.

An additional note, on the notice it says that there were announcements on the train, but the speaker within the carriage was low and the carriage was relatively noisy.

 

[SuspectUsual]

An additional note, on the notice it says that there were announcements on the train, but the speaker within the carriage was low and the carriage was relatively noisy.

Harsh as it may sound, I really wouldn't want to rely on not hearing the on train announcement - this is a reminder, not the first advice. By all means mention it, but frankly I'd be stunned if an appeal was upheld on this point alone

 

[azOOOOOma]

Was it a Class 80X? Notwithstanding the issues heating the announcement they could say that the train departure time is posted next to each passenger door. I’m not sure if that’s the case with the Class 185s though.

 

[methecooldude]

Was it a Class 80X? Notwithstanding the issues heating the announcement they could say that the train departure time is posted next to each passenger door. I’m not sure if that’s the case with the Class 185s though.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C43446/2024-09-25/detailed It was an 802

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 14:44 ticket (which I initially bought) cost more than the 13:44 train which I accidentally travelled on.

Hope that clears it up, and thank you so much to everyone for your advice and guidance.

Unfortunately, if the ticket that you bought was an advance single ticket for 1443 TPE train, it's only valid for the 1443. Doesn't matter if the price of an advance ticket for the 1443 was cheaper, or indeed more expensive, than an advance single for the 1344. If you wanted a degree of flexibility on when you're travelling, then you needed the £24.50 Off Peak Day Single (route "TPE only") or perhaps better still, the £28.80 Off Peak Single (route "Any Permitted", and not restricted to TPE train services).

 

[yorkie]

Did this happen before the train arrived at Durham? Were you given the option to only take that train as far as Durham (or, if this happened before Durham, at Darlington)?

 

[AlterEgo]

It isn’t a reasonable adjustment to allow someone with dyscalculia to travel at any time they like on an Advance ticket. I don’t think this argument has any weight.

I think @yorkie has posed a good question though. The answer to that will determine the procedural validity of the PF.

 

[JSorr]

Did this happen before the train arrived at Durham? Were you given the option to only take that train as far as Durham (or, if this happened before Durham, at Darlington)?

If I recall, it occurred after the train had departed Darlington but before the train had arrived at Durham if this helps.

 

[yorkie]

If I recall, it occurred after the train had departed Darlington but before the train had arrived at Durham if this helps.

I'm a bit confused; was this a northbound or southbound service? Perhaps you have Darlington & Durham the wrong way round.

But the big question really is: was there a stop before York? If so, was there ever any mention of a possibility you could get off there?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But the big question really is: was there a stop before York? If so, was there ever any mention of a possibility you could get off there?

The 1344 TPE train from Newcastle to York should normally also call at Northallerton after Darlington.

 

[JSorr]

I'm a bit confused; was this a northbound or southbound service? Perhaps you have Darlington & Durham the wrong way round.

But the big question really is: was there a stop before York? If so, was there ever any mention of a possibility you could get off there?

My apologies, my brain is still very frazzled. This was a south bound service to York and yes there was Darlington & after Darlington Northallerton.

I was not given the option to get off the train, the inspector said that because I took the train I’d have to get the penalty.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The time on the PF is 14:01 which suggests it was immediately after leaving Durham

 

[Gloster]

I am not trying to be unsympathetic, but if you have a pre-existing problem, why did you not check before boarding (by asking a member of staff) that the ticket was valid on that train? (Or even check the time.) It would seem (to me) to be a fairly basic and simple thing to do.

 

[John R]

I’d imagine it will be very difficult for them to look back and see exactly ever prices were being charged on each service at any one time but even if your train was cheaper then they’ll hide behind the ‘booked train only’ thing.

They don’t need to “hide behind” the booked train point. It’s a clear contractual requirement that you travel on the specific train identified on the ticket.

 

[azOOOOOma]

True. You have a valid point. A poor choice of words on my part.

 

[cool110]

I was not given the option to get off the train, the inspector said that because I took the train I’d have to get the penalty.

The important point here is if you were given the option between taking the penalty only as far as the next stop or all the way to York.

 

[JSorr]

The important point here is if you were given the option between taking the penalty only as far as the next stop or all the way to York.

I was given no option, just a penalty all the way to York.

 

[cool110]

That's a technicality you could use, as making the penalty fare out to a station other than the next stop can only be done if you specify that station under regulation 5 (5A).

(5A) In respect of England, the penalty fare charged under paragraph (1) to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises a person to travel to—
(a) a station in England at which the train is due to make a scheduled call that they may specify, if the collector considers that this is reasonable in all the circumstances; or
(b) otherwise, the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call.

The distinction is important as discounts (railcards, groupsave, etc.) can't be applied to penalty fares, so you have the right to leave the train at the next stop to buy a new (discounted) ticket for the remainder of the journey.

 

[furlong]

Yes, the default in the regulations is always to minimise the amount of the Penalty Fare by only charging it to the next station.
You are free to ask for a larger Penalty Fare to be issued (to a later station at which the train calls) but the person issuing it is under no obligation to agree.
If it happened just after Durham then it should have been issued to Darlington unless you specifically requested otherwise.
You then have the choice of buying a new ticket from the inspector from Darlington to York, or leaving the train (and in practice waiting there for an hour and boarding the train you were meant to be on with the ticket you had for the last part of your journey). If you choose to stay on the train, it is usually cheaper to ask for a larger penalty (i.e. ticket through to York) rather than paying the lower penalty only part of the way but having to buy a separate ticket on top but this isn't always true. While this means it might be considered good customer service to point all this out, it must still only be issued for the higher amount at the explicit request of the passenger. When you are given no choice over the matter, it can only be issued to the next station at which the train calls.