UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[InkyScrolls]

But that is their job. They aren't expected to drive for four hours on top of an 8 hour work day. And they are expected to be well rested and fit for their duty, rather than a tired or hungover motorist who is driving to or from somewhere for another activity.

Indeed, hence my initial point about it being off topic! I'm quite happy to drive a train for four, five, six hours over a shift - but I certainly wouldn't then be happy to drive four hours home again.

 

[Krokodil]

Train drivers are professionals, selected for their role and highly trained, and typically not having done something else all day first.

Up to an hour commute to work, four hours driving, break, four hours driving, and up to an hour home is quite plausible.

Though I do think that's quite a long time and am slightly less than convinced that it is appropriate - if nothing else 4 hours requires a very strong bladder (or unhealthy and potentially dangerous dehydration).

I have known drivers ask for a couple of minutes to nip to the toilet.

But that is their job. They aren't expected to drive for four hours on top of an 8 hour work day. And they are expected to be well rested and fit for their duty, rather than a tired or hungover motorist who is driving to or from somewhere for another activity.

The post he was replying to implied that four hours continuous driving was dangerous full stop, regardless of circumstances (such as whether it was in addition to a full day's work)

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

In settings where cars are left there all day, why not just as many 13A chargers as possible?

I do wonder this. At Hatfield most bays were filled during the morning rush hour and I'd assume stayed on charge until 5pm or later. So absolutely no need for fast charging at all.

3-pin sockets do not have the safety features that come with a Type-2 socket. 3-pin sockets are no longer permitted for public charging. Public AC charge points over 8kW must offer contactless payment, unless they are free. That could be why some 22kW 3-phase units are getting replaced by 7kW single phase boxes. While 22kW capable cars are still rare, there are many that can charge at 11kW when plugged into a 22kW socket.

Public Charge Point Regulations 2023 guidance

www.gov.uk

 

[RailWonderer]

Train drivers are professionals, selected for their role and highly trained, and typically not having done something else all day first. Though I do think that's quite a long time and am slightly less than convinced that it is appropriate - if nothing else 4 hours requires a very strong bladder (or unhealthy and potentially dangerous dehydration).

Private car drivers are none of those things. About two hours is probably the most they should do without a break.

Try telling that to Americans that drive for several hours at a time. If you took breaks every couple of hours you wouldn't get anywhere for days because everything is so far apart. Apparently you just get used to concentrating for long periods but there is a limit still.

 

[Krokodil]

Try telling that to Americans that drive for several hours at a time.

To be fair, Americans are among the last people I'd consult about road safety.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Try telling that to Americans that drive for several hours at a time. If you took breaks every couple of hours you wouldn't get anywhere for days because everything is so far apart. Apparently you just get used to concentrating for long periods but there is a limit still.

I think if you're driving for that long an occasional ten minute loo break isn't going to add much in relative terms to the journey!

 

[jon0844]

Try telling that to Americans that drive for several hours at a time. If you took breaks every couple of hours you wouldn't get anywhere for days because everything is so far apart. Apparently you just get used to concentrating for long periods but there is a limit still.

Given the number of accidents, and the crazy number of pedestrian deaths, I really don't think it's good to compare us to America!! I would hope they'd stop for a coffee at one of the many diners along the way - and perhaps EVs might reduce accidents by enforcing some more breaks.

Of course, if there's anywhere that's going to see people clinging on to their F150s and other ridiculous off-roaders until they die, it's the USA.

 

[paul1609]

3-pin sockets do not have the safety features that come with a Type-2 socket. 3-pin sockets are no longer permitted for public charging. Public AC charge points over 8kW must offer contactless payment, unless they are free. That could be why some 22kW 3-phase units are getting replaced by 7kW single phase boxes. While 22kW capable cars are still rare, there are many that can charge at 11kW when plugged into a 22kW socket.

It's more likely power supply constraints. 1x 22kw charger is more or less all that you can have on a non half hourly metered three phase supply but you can have multiple 7kw single phase ones. Once you go to half hourly metered supplies the charges go through the roof although you get a cheaper basic rate.

 

[Energy]

Public AC charge points over 8kW must offer contactless payment, unless they are free. That could be why some 22kW 3-phase units are getting replaced by 7kW single phase boxes. While 22kW capable cars are still rare, there are many that can charge at 11kW when plugged into a 22kW socket.

That explains why lots of the BP pulse points are only 7kw, at least they are only 37p/kWh near me.

It's more likely power supply constraints. 1x 22kw charger is more or less all that you can have on a non half hourly metered three phase supply but you can have multiple 7kw single phase ones. Once you go to half hourly metered supplies the charges go through the roof although you get a cheaper basic rate.

Most 3 phase supplies are 3x100amp. You can easily get 3 22kw chargers on that and an upgraded supply, e.g 200A, is usually not too much of a problem.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Fair enough, so increase the cost a bit more but not 60, 70, 80 or 85p (I think there are even higher rates). Tesla now charges variable rates for its chargers so presumably has a time of use energy plan like consumers can use?

Or you take the hit and subsidise by adding on 5 or 10p per hour to the car park rates. Or just take the hit entirely if you're, say, a shopping centre wanting to attract more people. Free charging could not only attract more visitors but also make them decide to stay at least a few hours, maybe staying for a meal or going to the cinema etc.

They'd spend more money than the charging cost, and the landowner secures more rent by busier shops and leisure facilities.

Hang on. That means me subsidising people who cannot be bothered to walk to the shops !.

 

[AM9]

When first installed they were free at Hatfield. It's quite likely that when they became chargeable a lot of people stopped using them.

It would make more sense to have simple AC chargers and a rate closer to the regular unit charge (20-30p). Some profit but not loads, but very little maintenance costs.

When everyone has an EV, probably better to make them free and just incorporate a cost into the hourly parking charges.

That's unreasonable, if we're talking commuters then adding to the parking cost for everybody means that those who've made the investment to charge at home would be subsidising those who haven't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's unreasonable, if we're talking commuters then adding to the parking cost for everybody means that those who've made the investment to charge at home would be subsidising those who haven't.

Or they'd plug in and save the cost of charging at home!

 

[jon0844]

It will be up to businesses to decide what to do. Charge a nominal amount, charge a premium, or charge nothing as a way to entice people to come.

Hatfield was originally charging nothing and you simply paid the regular parking fee. If you walk to a shopping centre, you're no doubt already helping fund the maintenance and security of a car park.

Obviously I get that people might get upset that someone else is getting something cheap or free, but if you don't have a car then you're saving anyway. If you have an EV maybe you will go somewhere to charge that you otherwise wouldn't.

Maybe those extra visitors by car help keep your favourite store from closing.

There's no one size fits all. Companies will figure it out.

For a railway station, offering free charging might encourage people to park their car to charge and take a train instead of driving and adding to road congestion - keeping car use to a minimum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a railway station, offering free charging might encourage people to park their car to charge and take a train instead of driving and adding to road congestion - keeping car use to a minimum.

Free or heavily discounted charging would certainly be a good way of marketing a park and ride service.

 

[The Ham]

I believe that Nissan @10 Amps is probably the highest of the actual car manufacturers (some I believe are limited to 6 or 8 Amps), my experience wasnt of the current leaf but the fact that Nissan are in their current official documentation specifying 21 hours to charge the 39 Kwh battery on a normal socket (they suggest it should be a specified socket checked by an electrician) suggests that nothing much has changed. That may be okay for someone who lives in a city driving a couple of miles to work or a station but it only has limited practicality for someone like me living in a rural area where theres next to no public transport and the nearest A&E or Station is 30 miles + return trip.

There aren't many people living in rural areas (about 15%) however given that someone in a small town with a population of 9,980 people with a station is rural, the risk number who have to drive much more than 10 miles each way to get to their nearest station is fairly limited (not zero, but also probably less than 10% of people).

Up to an hour commute to work, four hours driving, break, four hours driving, and up to an hour home is quite plausible.


I have known drivers ask for a couple of minutes to nip to the toilet.


The post he was replying to implied that four hours continuous driving was dangerous full stop, regardless of circumstances (such as whether it was in addition to a full day's work)

I would imagine (as I've never driven a train) that the need to have better than 2 second reaction times because someone else has done something stupid is reduced when driving a train compared to driving a car.

I would also guess that you can relax a little [edit] whilst at a station stop [/Edit] (in that you're not scanning the line ahead) and whilst that may only be 45 seconds, that's a longer than most would have at traffic lights.

If that's the case then the ability to drive a train safely is likely to have less of a risk of incident on those trips and so the comparison between the two (in safety terms) is different.

Edited to clarify

 

[Sun Chariot]

I would also guess that you can relax a little (in that you're not scanning the line ahead)

A retired EMU driver I knew years ago, told me it needed his constant focus - not just for the next signal aspect, but also for speed limit boards, any obstructions within the "four-foot" such as fallen branch / stray animal / person / errant road or rail vehicle.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Free or heavily discounted charging would certainly be a good way of marketing a park and ride service.

Free charging generally has not worked. Taxi and Uber drivers take over the charge points. Worse, some people will buy an EV expecting to get lifetime free fuel. They will go out of their way to get that free fuel, despite the absurdity of spening hours in car park miles from home.

When the operator starts charging, they will call in to various radio talk shows complaining. Newpapers will run stories about how this company has unfairly started charging outragous prices for electricity.

 

[SWT_USER]

Free charging generally has not worked. Taxi and Uber drivers take over the charge points. Worse, some people will buy an EV expecting to get lifetime free fuel. They will go out of their way to get that free fuel, despite the absurdity of spening hours in car park miles from home.

When the operator starts charging, they will call in to various radio talk shows complaining. Newpapers will run stories about how this company has unfairly started charging outragous prices for electricity.

Not sure about this. The only free charging I've come across is the 7kw ones - equivalent to a home charge point. These take far too long if you are an Uber driver.

I would agree they do take over the fast charging points - but the answer there is to provide more of them.

 

[The Ham]

A retired EMU driver I knew years ago, told me it needed his constant focus - not just for the next signal aspect, but also for speed limit boards, any obstructions within the "four-foot" such as fallen branch / stray animal / person / errant road or rail vehicle.

Sorry, I missed out a few words, I meant this was at a station, not that they weren't scanning the line ahead whilst moving, I'll edit to make this clearer.

 

[Crithylum]

Sorry, I missed out a few words, I meant this was at a station, not that they weren't scanning the line ahead whilst moving, I'll edit to make this clearer.

Isn't it the same with traffic lights, except you have possibly 100s of people boarding on and off your vehicle, who could fall between the gap, potentially resulting in their death if you didn't pay enough attention

 

[Mawkie]

Watched an interesting video on YouTube yesterday about replacing a single failed battery cell in the Nissan Leaf.

It covers the removal of the entire battery pack, dismantling, checking, replacement of the cell, and refitting of the battery. The video indicates a cost of between £700 and £1400, depending on car type and battery type.

Also worth nothing that was at a local, independent, garage in Herne Bay.

If an electric car's battery is dying, is it destined for landfill? No! Having identified a faulty battery cell in his Nissan LEAF, my neighbour decided to get it repaired.

I join Dean and Cameron at The EV Workshop in Herne Bay while they show how to replace the cell in a Nissan LEAF battery.

Obviously don't do this at home!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If only one cell has failed you simply don't bother, you let the car's software map it out.

 

[jon0844]

Watched an interesting video on YouTube yesterday about replacing a single failed battery cell in the Nissan Leaf.

It covers the removal of the entire battery pack, dismantling, checking, replacement of the cell, and refitting of the battery. The video indicates a cost of between £700 and £1400, depending on car type and battery type.

Also worth nothing that was at a local, independent, garage in Herne Bay.

As I said many times before, the smart people aren't going to rally against EVs but embrace the technology and find ways to create new businesses. Servicing, refurbishing, recycling....

 

[Peter Sarf]

If only one cell has failed you simply don't bother, you let the car's software map it out.

I got the impression from the video that the car was unable to do more than 30 miles and required a reset each time it was turned on. So it looks like the software would be happier with the one errant cell replaced.

I am guessing that the power circuit has each battery hardwired into it so a faulty battery would therefore offer up an unavoidable obstacle (resistance) to the current flow thus crippling performance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I got the impression from the video that the car was unable to do more than 30 miles and required a reset each time it was turned on. So it looks like the software would be happier with the one errant cell replaced.

I am guessing that the power circuit has each battery hardwired into it so a faulty battery would therefore offer up an unavoidable obstacle (resistance) to the current flow thus crippling performance.

To be fair the Leaf is about the worst-designed EV. Very often the first is the worst (!) - no time to develop the tech.

 

[Peter Sarf]

To be fair the Leaf is about the worst-designed EV. Very often the first is the worst (!) - no time to develop the tech.

True. The mechanic in the video even referred to the total lack of cooling or heating for the batteries in the Leaf. Makes me suspect that newer cars have harder to get at battery cells if heating and/or cooling equipment needs getting out of the way as well.

I agree about the first examples of new tech being a bit risky. I am a bit of a techy but a luddite when it comes to new tech - I have no intention of being a guinea pig (I am looking at you Microsoft).

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. The mechanic in the video even referred to the total lack of cooling or heating for the batteries in the Leaf. Makes me suspect that newer cars have harder to get at battery cells if heating and/or cooling equipment needs getting out of the way as well.

With a decent active battery management system you of course have less need to do so. It's equivalent to the sort of work that requires the engine to be removed from an ICE car, which is itself a very large undertaking.

 

[Peter Sarf]

With a decent active battery management system you of course have less need to do so. It's equivalent to the sort of work that requires the engine to be removed from an ICE car, which is itself a very large undertaking.

Indeed. And was a plus point for my Vauxhall Cavalier and Carlton(s) influencing choice. The engine/gearbox/clutch could be worked on without getting the the whole lot out of the car. Ironically they were also reliable anyway.

I can imagine a well designed and with time mature EV design will be easier t work on and yet not require so much work anyway.
That puts me in the wait and see bracket of potential users.

 

[bspahh]

I can imagine a well designed and with time mature EV design will be easier t work on and yet not require so much work anyway.
That puts me in the wait and see bracket of potential users.

I don't think there will be much to worry about from the batteries and motors. The problems will come with electronics and software for the rest of the car - ABS, central locking, and the various driver aids like collision detection.

If there is a problem that means there is a red warning light, then its an MOT failure. Failures could come from poor electrical connections, or broken/dirty/worn sensors. If the car is still supported by the manufacturer, they might be able to work around these issues with software updates. If the manufacturer doesn't care, or has gone bust, then it might not be so simple.

My car is 12 years old, and the major repairs have been to the engine immobiliser, which required a new engine management box, and a door where water damaged wiring stopped it from unlocking.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can imagine a well designed and with time mature EV design will be easier t work on and yet not require so much work anyway.

To be fair, Tesla‘s are definitely in the ‘mature’ stage of their development, with the oldest examples of the ‘S’ over a decade old and the ‘X’ nearly 8 years old. Even the oldest VW ID3s are approaching their fifth birtday.