2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[uglymonkey]

If they don't "flinch" over killing women & children, they won't flinch over some protests.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Zionism is a multi-generational project. Current about 125 years in.

I don’t think ousting the fascist Netanyahu regime can be equated with ending Zionism. It is possible to provide a stable Jewish home-state without oppressing and killing those inhabiting the surrounding lands, the trick is to recognise them as equal humans as well, something Smotrich & Co seem unwilling to do.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is possible to provide a stable Jewish home-state without oppressing and killing those inhabiting the surrounding lands

It is not. Zionism is necessarily violent because it is colonialism.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The UK Government has suspended licenses for *some* of the weapons to be exported to Israel. A small, but significant step, just a shame that F-35s weren't included in those licenses.

David Lammy said the ban was "not an arms embargo" - but there was a "clear risk" that some UK weapons could be used in violation of international law.The UK will suspend some arms sales to Israel, Foreign Secretary David Lammy has announced.

Mr Lammy said the decision follows a review of export licences for UK arms, which found there was a "clear risk" they might be used to commit "a serious violation of international humanitarian law".

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Around 30 of 350 licences will be suspended, Mr Lammy said, stressing that "this is not a blanket ban, this is not an arms embargo".

But the Israeli foreign minister Israel Katz said the decision "sends a very problematic message" to Hamas and its backer Iran.

Mr Lammy said the government had a legal duty to review Britain's export licences amid the war in Gaza.

Explaining his decision, he told the Commons: "It is with regret that I inform the House today the assessment I have received leaves me unable to conclude anything other than that for certain UK arms exports to Israel, there does exist a clear risk that they might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law."

The suspension will include components that go into military aircraft being used in Gaza, including helicopters and drones, as well as items which facilitate ground targeting.

However, it will not include parts for multinational F-35 fighter jets - something that has concerned opposition MPs and human rights charities.The government said doing so would have a "significant effect on the global F-35 fleet with serious implications for international peace and security".

UK to suspend some arms sales to Israel, foreign secretary announces

David Lammy said the ban was "not an arms embargo" - but there was a "clear risk" that some UK weapons could be used in violation of international law.

news.sky.com

 

[brad465]

Things have just got extremely spicy:

Hezbollah blames Israel after deadly pager explosions in Lebanon

Eight people have been killed and 2,750 wounded by the blasts, the Lebanese health minister says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eight people, including a child, have been killed and nearly 3,000 injured after handheld pagers used by members of the armed group Hezbollah to communicate exploded across Lebanon, the country’s health minister says.
Iran’s ambassador to Lebanon was among those wounded by the simultaneous blasts which happened in Beirut and several other regions.
Hezbollah, which is backed by Iran, said the pagers belonged “to employees of various Hezbollah units and institutions” and that at least two fighters were among the dead.
The group blamed Israel for what it called “this criminal aggression” and vowed that it would get “just retribution”. The Israeli military declined to comment.
Israel has been exchanging fire with Hezbollah since last October in parallel with the Gaza war, raising fears of a wider regional conflict.
The UN said the developments were extremely concerning, given the “volatile” context.

Hezbollah relies heavily on pagers for communications. The group has warned its members to stop using mobile phones because they could be hacked or tracked by Israeli security forces.

An unspecified number of pagers exploded in multiple areas of Lebanon at around 15:30 local time (12:30 GMT), according to Hezbollah.

One CCTV video showed an explosion in a man’s bag at a supermarket. The man is then seen falling backwards to the ground and crying out in pain as other shoppers run for cover.

Health Minister Firas Abiad said most of the wounds were to the face, hands and stomach.

Iranian state TV reported that Iran’s ambassador in Beirut, Mojtaba Amani, suffered "superficial" injuries in one of the explosions.

“We hold the Israeli enemy fully responsible for this criminal aggression,” Hezbollah said on Tuesday evening.

“This treacherous and criminal enemy will certainly get his just retribution on this sinful aggression from where it counts and from where it does not count,” it added.

Lebanese Prime Minister Najib Mikati also blamed Israel for the explosions, saying that they represented a “serious violation of Lebanese sovereignty and a crime by all standards”.

Hezbollah did not say what it believed had caused the pagers to explode.

But a former British Army munitions expert, who asked not to be named, told the BBC the pagers would have likely been packed with between 10g and 20g of military-grade high explosive, hidden inside a fake electronic component.

Once armed by a signal, called an alphanumeric text message, the next person to use the device would have triggered the explosive, the expert said.

Lina Khatib, a Middle East analyst at the UK-based Chatham House think tank, told the BBC: "Israel has been engaging in cyber operations against Hezbollah for several months, but this security breach is the largest in scale.”

“The timing coincides with rising public pressure in Israel on the government to secure the country's northern border with Lebanon,” she added. “Instead of military action, which Hezbollah would be able to withstand, this attack aims to paralyse Hezbollah and significantly limit its options for manoeuvre against Israel.”

Although there has been no comment from Israel, the events come hours after the country’s security cabinet made the safe return of 60,000 residents displaced in the north by Hezbollah attacks an official goal of the Gaza war.

Israel Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said during a meeting with US envoy Amos Hochstein on Monday that the only way to return northern residents was through "military action".

“The possibility for an agreement is running out as Hezbollah continues to ‘tie itself’ to Hamas, and refuses to end the conflict,” a statement from his office said.

There have been almost daily exchanges of fire across the Israel-Lebanon border since the day after the start of the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza on 7 October.

Hezbollah has said it is acting in support of the Palestinian group. Both are backed by Iran and proscribed as terrorist organisations by Israel, the UK and other countries.

Since October, at least 589 people have been killed in Lebanon, the vast majority of them Hezbollah fighters, according to the Lebanese health ministry.

On the Israeli side, 25 civilians and 21 members of security forces have been killed, the Israeli government says.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’ll be interesting to see how they’ve done it, whether they’ve attached explosives to all the devices by infiltrating the supply chain upstream or whether they’ve used software to cause the lithium ion batteries to explode.

I’ll not lie, the latter terrifies me. The Israelis haven’t always been the most choosy about who they sell their software to, as we saw with Pegasus. And most of us carry around an item in our pocket with a lithium ion battery…

 

[Ianigsy]

In Leeds this lunchtime, on opposite sides of the Headrow were groups of pro-Palestinian supporters calling for a ceasefire and a group from Leeds Against Anti-Semitism calling for a ceasefire. Clearly nobody brought their sense of irony with them.

The problem with messing around in Lebanon is that carrying out assassinations in another sovereign country is crossing another line and a two-finger salute to the norms of international relations.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Todays actions are the behaviour of a terrorist state, whatever the strategic justification.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Todays actions are the behaviour of a terrorist state, whatever the strategic justification.

To be fair, it's quite impressive really. James Bond "Q" style innovation that you just don't see in these modern times. When you think of the planning and preparation that was needed, from making them ditch mobile phones in the first place, to getting them to purchase thousands of rigged up pagers, and then distributing them, all without any issues at all.

Regardless of who carried out the pager attack, you can't deny it's been fairly effective at achieving it's likely aims, and with substantially reduced civilian casualties compared to other more indiscriminate plots.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

It’ll be interesting to see how they’ve done it, whether they’ve attached explosives to all the devices by infiltrating the supply chain upstream or whether they’ve used software to cause the lithium ion batteries to explode.

I’ll not lie, the latter terrifies me. The Israelis haven’t always been the most choosy about who they sell their software to, as we saw with Pegasus. And most of us carry around an item in our pocket with a lithium ion battery…

They absolutely must have had explosives or a heat reactive/volatile chemical compound in based on the videos circulating. One video showed a bedroom that had been blown to bits when it had been left on a table unattended.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

From a technical perspective it’s impressive. But the complete disregard for civilians is shocking. I think Israel may have lost any moral high ground it remained on - images of ordinary people being dismembered in the street without warning have a tendency to turn people against those responsible.

 

[brad465]

From a technical perspective it’s impressive. But the complete disregard for civilians is shocking. I think Israel may have lost any moral high ground it remained on - images of ordinary people being dismembered in the street without warning have a tendency to turn people against those responsible.

What you have to remember here is we're talking about a regime led by someone desperate to stay in power as a means to avoid going to jail. This particular phase of the decades-long conflict may not have been started by the Israeli side, but Netanyahu has a huge motive to keep the war going to the point of attacking other fronts. If a civilian uprising arises in Lebanon backing Hizbollah, that will be helping do what Netanyahu wants.

 

[AlterEgo]

Todays actions are the behaviour of a terrorist state, whatever the strategic justification.

Correct. As it has been since inception.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Correct. As it has been since inception.

If you’re saying that Israel has been a terrorist state throughout its entire existence then I disagree.

 

[eldomtom2]

From a technical perspective it’s impressive. But the complete disregard for civilians is shocking. I think Israel may have lost any moral high ground it remained on - images of ordinary people being dismembered in the street without warning have a tendency to turn people against those responsible.

Lots of pictures of ordinary Gazans dismembered in the street without warning doesn't seem to have done much...

 

[AlterEgo]

If you’re saying that Israel has been a terrorist state throughout its entire existence then I disagree.

It was founded on terrorism and has relied on it for its entire history. It is a necessarily racist and apartheid ethnostate which cannot exist in any form without committing violence and terrorism to the people it has ethnically cleansed.

 

[Belperpete]

From a technical perspective it’s impressive. But the complete disregard for civilians is shocking. I think Israel may have lost any moral high ground it remained on - images of ordinary people being dismembered in the street without warning have a tendency to turn people against those responsible.

Israel's complete disregard for non-Jewish civilians is nothing new. Over 40,000 innocent civilians killed, and over 100,000 injured, is completely indefensible. And that is only in the last year. Israel was founded by terrorists, and has been busy killing innocent Palestinians ever since. Has it ever had any moral high ground?

 

[AlterEgo]

Israel's complete disregard for non-Jewish civilians is nothing new. Over 40,000 innocent civilians killed, and over 100,000 injured, is completely indefensible. And that is only in the last year. Israel was founded by terrorists, and has been busy killing innocent Palestinians ever since. Has it ever had any moral high ground?

And now they are detonating maiming and fatal explosives in 3000 public spaces in a foreign country. A contemptuous regime. I am heartened every time I hear people call them out so robustly.

 

[brad465]

It was founded on terrorism and has relied on it for its entire history. It is a necessarily racist and apartheid ethnostate which cannot exist in any form without committing violence and terrorism to the people it has ethnically cleansed.

Serious question: do you or anyone else think there is any real possibility that the State of Israel collapses/dissolves sometime in say the next generation (or less)? Given the country has US backing for defence and a relatively advanced economy, it seems like a long shot, but then for a while I imagine (I wasn't alive at this point) the collapse of the USSR was unthinkable yet still happened.

Someone from Middle East eye pointed out that a regime/empire is usually at its most violent as its end nears: the British and French empires showed this in the 20th century, Napoleon and the Axis powers likewise. By this logic Russia, Iran (particularly via its many proxies) and Israel are all today on the verge of collapse/revolution.

 

[AlterEgo]

Serious question: do you or anyone else think there is any real possibility that the State of Israel collapses/dissolves sometime in say the next generation (or less)? Given the country has US backing for defence and a relatively advanced economy, it seems like a long shot, but then for a while I imagine (I wasn't alive at this point) the collapse of the USSR was unthinkable yet still happened.

Someone from Middle East eye pointed out that a regime/empire is usually at its most violent as its end nears: the British and French empires showed this in the 20th century, Napoleon and the Axis powers likewise. By this logic Russia, Iran (particularly via its many proxies) and Israel are all today on the verge of collapse/revolution.

I’m not sure about that. I wish for Israel to be dismantled peacefully, although this possibility seems remote now. A huge amount depends on Iran. If it too, collapses, and even secularises, the necessity for a western military ally in the Middle East will lessen. The declining relevance of the Cold War - and the lessened necessity for an anti-Russia country in Africa - was a significant factor in the end of the racist apartheid white regime and its nuclear programme in South Africa.

 

[GusB]

To be fair, it's quite impressive really. James Bond "Q" style innovation that you just don't see in these modern times. When you think of the planning and preparation that was needed, from making them ditch mobile phones in the first place, to getting them to purchase thousands of rigged up pagers, and then distributing them, all without any issues at all.

However it happened, it's certainly a novel way of doing things.

From a technical perspective it’s impressive. But the complete disregard for civilians is shocking. I think Israel may have lost any moral high ground it remained on - images of ordinary people being dismembered in the street without warning have a tendency to turn people against those responsible.

Agreed - the perpetrators don't know who is holding those pagers and there is potential for innocent people to be harmed.

If you’re saying that Israel has been a terrorist state throughout its entire existence then I disagree.

The state of Israel is every bit as nasty as any other "terrorist state" and we need to acknowledge this fact.

I’m not sure about that. I wish for Israel to be dismantled peacefully, although this possibility seems remote now. A huge amount depends on Iran. If it too, collapses, and even secularises, the necessity for a western military ally in the Middle East will lessen. The declining relevance of the Cold War - and the lessened necessity for an anti-Russia country in Africa - was a significant factor in the end of the racist apartheid white regime and its nuclear programme in South Africa.

That's quite a brave statement to make! Dismantling Israel isn't something I'd really consider, but it does need to have its wings clipped and it needs to stop relying on other nations to help in fighting battles that it has created.

I have no issue with the ordinary Israeli people who want to live their lives in peace. They, and the Palestinians, are entitled to go about their daily lives without encountering any violence. Unfortunately, we've got extremists on both sides and the only way to solve it is with dialogue - not bombs.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It’ll be interesting to see how they’ve done it, whether they’ve attached explosives to all the devices by infiltrating the supply chain upstream or whether they’ve used software to cause the lithium ion batteries to explode.

I’ll not lie, the latter terrifies me. The Israelis haven’t always been the most choosy about who they sell their software to, as we saw with Pegasus. And most of us carry around an item in our pocket with a lithium ion battery…

Yes extremely scary. Technology always has been but this is particularly so.

 

[DustyBin]

Yes extremely scary. Technology always has been but this is particularly so.

Based on the footage I’ve seen it appears some kind of explosive had been incorporated into the devices; the explosions look too powerful to be caused by batteries alone. Which is relatively comforting!

 

[Falcon1200]

carrying out assassinations in another sovereign country is crossing another line and a two-finger salute to the norms of international relations.

Having a terrorist organisation happily based in a neighbouring country to Israel, and firing rockets from that country into Israel, has surely been a long-standing two-fingered salute etc....

images of ordinary people being dismembered in the street without warning have a tendency to turn people against those responsible.

Presumably those carrying Hezbollah pagers are active members of Hezbollah? Although sadly innocent bystanders have been injured, if not killed, as well.

I wish for Israel to be dismantled peacefully

And replaced by what, exactly? Israel is the sole (very much imperfect, certainly) democratic state in the region, and has only been able to maintain its existence by defending itself against repeated attack by its neighbours, some of whom are openly dedicated to the destruction of the state and, by extension, its (Jewish) people. Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people in general, the response to Hamas after the October attack, and the annexation of West Bank territory is wrong, should be and has been called out, but it is difficult to see how the situation in the Middle East can ever be resolved so that all people can live in peace with each other. The hatred and distrust goes back too far, and Israel's recent actions have just made things worse; But so have the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah and the most malevolent, by far, entity in the region, Iran. If any country is to be dismantled peacefully, it should be that one, not that it will ever happen.

 

[AlterEgo]

Based on the footage I’ve seen it appears some kind of explosive had been incorporated into the devices; the explosions look too powerful to be caused by batteries alone. Which is relatively comforting!

Not comforting at all to know Mossad can blow up a person standing next to you in the supermarket queue.

Of course, you might think “well Israel might choose not to do that in London” (not that in fact they had any real control over where these pagers exploded, some weeks or months after they were delivered), and “of course they did it in Lebanon”. But that’s only because they view Muslim lives as having no real value.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They absolutely must have had explosives or a heat reactive/volatile chemical compound in based on the videos circulating

I can’t decide if that’s more or less scary tbh.

I think Israel may have lost any moral high ground it remained on

Israel has never had to face real international consequences for its actions. It was arming the apartheid South Africa in the 80s, breaking every sanction in the book, and…tumbleweed. It has always been allowed to be a rogue state.

Israel is the sole (very much imperfect, certainly) democratic state in the region

It is democratic- to an extent- if you are Jewish. But Netanyahu over the last 20 years or so has made it almost impossible for Arab people to become citizens of Israel, even if they are working and living peacefully in Israel proper and even if they are married to an Israeli.

Apartheid South Africa was democratic too if you were white.

Dismantling Israel isn't something I'd really consider, but it does need to have its wings clipped and it needs to stop relying on other nations to help in fighting battles that it has created.

I suppose it depends what we mean by dismantling it.

Israel has a right to exist.

But that right to exist should be inclusive of other people within its territory. I keep mentioning apartheid South Africa but it’s the closest example- both of what the current state is and how it should be transformed into something for everyone.

The current law in Israel is that if you’re Jewish you can rock up from anywhere in the world and become an Israeli citizen. No matter your criminal record, which is why Israel has become a popular bolt hole for Jewish criminals. But the people who live there, whose immediate antecedents lived there before it was Israel, can’t become citizens.

 

[AlterEgo]

Having a terrorist organisation happily based in a neighbouring country to Israel, and firing rockets from that country into Israel, has surely been a long-standing two-fingered salute etc....



Presumably those carrying Hezbollah pagers are active members of Hezbollah? Although sadly innocent bystanders have been injured, if not killed, as well.



And replaced by what, exactly? Israel is the sole (very much imperfect, certainly) democratic state in the region

A claim made about racist apartheid South Africa, which also holds no weight for the same reason. It is a disgrace to vaunt Israel as “imperfect, but yeah, a democracy”.

“This is the only state mimicking western political norms” is not a reason for it to exist. It excludes people based on their race and social status. It imprisons people based on those factors using pass laws into their enclaves.

, and has only been able to maintain its existence by defending itself against repeated attack by its neighbours

Indeed it can only exist through force and displacement of the previously indigenous population. It is the product of colonialism and can only exist by using the force and asymmetric power of a colonist.

. Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people in general, the response to Hamas after the October attack, and the annexation of West Bank territory is wrong, should be and has been called out

Will you do so? Will you denounce Israel as a state which uses terror, which forcibly separates people by race and religion, which imprisons Muslims in open air camps, which it has flattened with western supplied ordnance while the people and children there can do nothing about it? Over 40,000 are dead, including thousand of women, children, and babies.

I can tell you that if Russia detonated the phones of 3000 wronguns in the UK in public places - like two feet in front of you in the queue at Tesco - would be unanimous outrage at the total disregard for civilian life.

, but it is difficult to see how the situation in the Middle East can ever be resolved so that all people can live in peace with each other. The hatred and distrust goes back too far, and Israel's recent actions have just made things worse

Again, stuff anyone could have said about apartheid South Africa in about 1985.

 

[Falcon1200]

Will you do so? Will you denounce Israel as a state which uses terror,

Yes; I absolutely denounce Israel as a state which treats people dreadfully, based on race, which wages war on innocent people, and in doing so utterly destroys what chance there ever was for any form of lasting peace in the region. But I also recognise that they are a nation, or more accurately a people, surrounded by others who detest them and wish for nothing less than their total destruction.

I ask again, as despite your many rebuttals to the points I made you have not answered the question, 'what should replace Israel'?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can tell you that if Russia detonated the phones of 3000 wronguns in the UK in public places - like two feet in front of you in the queue at Tesco - would be unanimous outrage at the total disregard for civilian life.

When Russia came to the UK and assassinated or attempted to assassinate people it consists wrong ‘uns there was outrage. Same when Iran did and does it. There’s even muted outrage when China “persuades” people it considers wrong ‘uns back to China through its hidden police force Chinese Visa service.

But when Israel does it there is tumbleweed.

You can see why so much of the global south is turning away from the west and pivoting towards China. At least the Chinese aren’t hypocrites.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Indeed it can only exist through force and displacement of the previously indigenous population. It is the product of colonialism and can only exist by using the force and asymmetric power of a colonist.

How Israel came into being is a very complex history and probably owes more to British and American dishonesty and political ‘fudging’ than any colonial ambitions of the (displaced) Jewish populations of post-WW2 Europe. (The Zionist movement of the US, which Truman shamefully used to ensure his party won a New York mayoral election, was a different kettle of fish.) I agree that it is probably impossible to resolve but the concept of dissolving a nuclear-armed state who believe they have a God-given right to the land is unrealistic, I’m afraid.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes; I absolutely denounce Israel as a state which treats people dreadfully, based on race, which wages war on innocent people, and in doing so utterly destroys what chance there ever was for any form of lasting peace in the region. But I also recognise that they are a nation, or more accurately a people, surrounded by others who detest them and wish for nothing less than their total destruction.

I ask again, as despite your many rebuttals to the points I made you have not answered the question, 'what should replace Israel'?

A democratic and multi-racial state. That isn't a hard answer. What would you have replaced apartheid South Africa with?