Rebuilding the 'Little North Western' ?

[Halifaxlad]

Just out of pure curosity: what do people think about rebuilding the Little North Western or a similar route from somewhere after Settle Junction to Low Gill and elecrifying the line from Skipton ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To what end? It barely justifies a bus service.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why? It would never pay its way. It would be cheaper to permanently lay on free taxis to/from Clapham (Yorks).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? It would never pay its way. It would be cheaper to permanently lay on free taxis to/from Clapham (Yorks).

Lancaster would probably be a better bet if one actually wanted a taxi. Taxis in rural areas are few and far between.

 

[randyrippley]

Only reason to do it would be to save money by replacing the Settle-Carlisle
But really it goes in the wrong direction: Ingleton and Kirkby Lonsdale need links westward towards Lancaster, not eastward

 

[Halifaxlad]

Why is it everytime someone suggest rebuilding or building a new line its always presumed to be about the area its passinh through ?

If HS2 was proposed on this forum it would probably have never got off the ground!

 

[The Planner]

Why is it everytime someone suggest rebuilding or building a new line its always presumed to be about the area its passinh through ?

If HS2 was proposed on this forum it would probably have never got off the ground!

People just want to understand what its for. Anyone can say lets reopen A to B.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is it everytime someone suggest rebuilding or building a new line its always presumed to be about the area its passinh through ?

If HS2 was proposed on this forum it would probably have never got off the ground!

Well, what is the purpose of your proposal that the Bentham Line doesn't fulfil?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is it everytime someone suggest rebuilding or building a new line its always presumed to be about the area its passinh through ?

If HS2 was proposed on this forum it would probably have never got off the ground!

If the brains trust behind HS2 had thought more about what it was for then we almost certainly wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

So, what purpose does your idea serve- local or regional or national- that isn't currently served by the line via Wennington and Carnforth?

 

[Halifaxlad]

People just want to understand what its for. Anyone can say lets reopen A to B.

Its an interesting way for people to ask question i.e to presume then make remarks based on that presumption.

If the brains trust behind HS2 had thought more about what it was for then we almost certainly wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

So, what purpose does your idea serve- local or regional or national- that isn't currently served by the line via Wennington and Carnforth?

Why does it have to serve somewhere that isnt currently served ?

Besides Wennington & Carnforth doesnt offer a faster route Northwards.

 

[Senex]

You could argue that the fate of the Kirkby Lonsdale line was sealed the moment parliament threw out the S&C abandonment Bill.

If anything were ever to be resurrected there, surely better Wennington Jn to Lancaster Castle (and abandon Wennington to Carnforth).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why does it have to serve somewhere that isnt currently served ?

Besides Wennington & Carnforth doesnt offer a faster route Northwards.

Problem is that the S and C offers a better diversionary route north for the WCML and Yorks-Scotland scheduled services, and it's relatively recently had a lot of money spent on it.

Having said that, a heritage railway from Thornton in Lonsdale (just west of Ingleton, with a shuttle bus in) to the old Sedbergh station (there are existing service bus connections to Oxenholme and Kendal passing the site wouldn't be a bad idea.
You'd have to divert around some obstructions, but there's nothing massively major in the way, and it's a hugely touristy area.

There's always the option to rebuild it as narrow gauge too, like the Welsh Highland Railway, if you wanted to save money and space (I'm not sure most of the visitors will really care that much about historical accuracy).

 

[Halifaxlad]

Problem is that the S and C offers a better diversionary route north for the WCML and Yorks-Scotland scheduled services, and it's relatively recently had a lot of money spent on it.

The S&C still isnt electric thou and a short section of it is single track. I can't see it ever being electrified. I dont think it will be fully redoubled either. A new route to the West could also be tunnelless. It would also be less than half the route of the S&C so thats a lot less electrification.

My thoughts of a new Transpennine line is for a new route for 'Transpennine' running from Leeds to Glasgow.
On that basis I would rule out narrow gauge.

As far as historical accuracy goes I would consider almost a whole new line although I do quite like the idea of a station at Ingleton as it would make the dales a lot more popular by train, as you could walk over Ingleborough to Horton in Ribblesdale and catch the train back or visa versa.

I have also previously thought about an bypass on the WCML that could follow the M6 from Bailrigg to Low Gill bypassing Lancaster, Carnforth & Oxenholme. I believe something similar has been addressed elsewhere on this forum. If such a new route was constructed then any new line could be even shorter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The S&C still isnt electric thou and a short section of it is single track. I can't see it ever being electrified. I dont think it will be fully redoubled either.

The S&C is double track throughout bar Ribblehead Viaduct.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

I have also previously thought about an bypass on the WCML that could follow the M6 from Bailrigg to Low Gill bypassing Lancaster, Carnforth & Oxenholme. I believe something similar has been addressed elsewhere on this forum. If such a new route was constructed then any new line could be even shorter.

The only possible justification for that is HS2+ to Scotland in which case you'll not be running local DMUs on it.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Just out of pure curiosity: what do people think about rebuilding the Little North Western or a similar route from somewhere after Settle Junction to Low Gill and elecrifying the line from Skipton ?

As a passenger and someone who would drive such a reopened line, it would be lovely.

But logically, why? And where would services go to? Penrith? Good luck getting paths for 158s on the WCML.

 

[507020]

As a passenger and someone who would drive such a reopened line, it would be lovely.

But logically, why? And where would services go to? Penrith? Good luck getting paths for 158s on the WCML.

Paths for Voyagers on Settle - Carlisle?

Does “reopening the Little North Western” refer to the route from Wennington - Green Ayre, Clapham Junction - Ingleton - Lowgill Junction or Garsdale - Hawes branch?

With some WCML traffic leaving at Oxenholme, there is theoretically a spare path north of Oxenholme which could be used by a train from Ingleton/Hellfield joining at Lowgill Junction, whether it comes from Farington, by redoubling Blackburn - Bolton or from Whitehall Junction. There are options for it to be a strategic corridor.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The S&C is double track throughout bar Ribblehead Viaduct.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

That the bit I was refering to although it doesnt really matter where it is.

The only possible justification for that is HS2+ to Scotland in which case you'll not be running local DMUs on it.

I wouldnt have even considered that!

 

[AlastairFraser]

The S&C still isnt electric thou and a short section of it is single track. I can't see it ever being electrified

I think it will be discontinuously electrified, if that becomes more commonplace on the British network. OHLE on the less scenic sections to charge batteries.

It would also be less than half the route of the S&C so thats a lot less electrification.

Electrification will be cheaper than opening a new route (obviously heritage lines are on different regs, so a lot cheaper to reinstate, hence my suggestion).

My thoughts of a new Transpennine line is for a new route for 'Transpennine' running from Leeds to Glasgow.
On that basis I would rule out narrow gauge.

Not sure that will work via Skipton - if you're looking for speed or capacity improvements, any major Yorks to Scotland improvements will likely head via the ECML (or high speed bypasses of some sections).

As far as historical accuracy goes I would consider almost a whole new line although I do quite like the idea of a station at Ingleton as it would make the dales a lot more popular by train, as you could walk over Ingleborough to Horton in Ribblesdale and catch the train back or visa versa.

You're going to need a tunnel to get anywhere close to Ingleton on a through alignment, if that's what you want. You could bypass it to the south on the surface, but you're talking over a mile from the centre of the village and the wrong side for the caves traffic. That's why a terminus station on the west works, because you can get as close as around half a mile from the centre, the alignment east of that is obstructed by the community centre, library and a lot of residential development.

I have also previously thought about an bypass on the WCML that could follow the M6 from Bailrigg to Low Gill bypassing Lancaster, Carnforth & Oxenholme. I believe something similar has been addressed elsewhere on this forum. If such a new route was constructed then any new line could be even shorter.

It may have been me - I've definitely proposed a Lancaster bypass starting south of Bailrigg and rejoining at Lowgill or maybe even closer to Tebay. That would be for more long distance high speed services as Bletchleyite said though.
If you wanted to speed up Leeds to Glasgow or add capacity, you'd not want to rejoin the congested WCML as far south as Lowgill, because you still have that lengthly steep section up to Tebay then Shap to deal with. You'd be better off going for some speed increases on the Settle and Carlisle, then some high speed bypass further north on the WCML to help cut time off intercity Avanti/TPE services too (e.g Beattock to Symington or Carstairs).

 

[fishwomp]

Well, what is the purpose of your proposal that the Bentham Line doesn't fulfil?

Additional East-West capacity once Skipton to Colne is reopened and filled. Obviously.

 

[YorksLad12]

Additional East-West capacity once Skipton to Colne is reopened and filled. Obviously.

The "Godwin's Law" of this forum... how long does it take before someone mentions the war Skipton-Colne?

 

[InkyScrolls]

The "Godwin's Law" of this forum... how long does it take before someone mentions the war Skipton-Colne?

'Tis a hoary chestnut indeed!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2024 ==

If the aim is direct Leeds/Airedale links to Glasgow, a far more efficient way of achieving that would be using 125 mph capable units along the existing Little NW as far as Lancaster, then going straight up the WCML to Glasgow.

 

[Halifaxlad]

'Tis a hoary chestnut indeed!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2024 ==

If the aim is direct Leeds/Airedale links to Glasgow, a far more efficient way of achieving that would be using 125 mph capable units along the existing Little NW as far as Lancaster, then going straight up the WCML to Glasgow

Where do you suggest reversing ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Where do you suggest reversing ?

Lancaster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2024 ==

Assuming perfect paths were available (total minutes):

• Leeds 0
• Shipley 12
• Bingley 17
• Keighley 22
• Skipton 34
• Carnforth 80
• Lancaster a. 88, depart 93
• Oxenholme 107
• Penrith 132
• Carlisle 151
• Lockerbie 170
• Carstairs 206
• Motherwell 221
• Glasgow Central 241

Note that Leeds to Carlisle is actually quicker than the S&C!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think it will be discontinuously electrified, if that becomes more commonplace on the British network. OHLE on the less scenic sections to charge batteries.

Discontinuous electrification is a silly concept that needs consigning to the dustbin of history. If you're electrifying bits of a route you may as well electrify the whole thing, then you don't need to handicap your electric trains with a load of heavy batteries. Your disconnected bits still need grid supply points (or "extension leads" in the form of ground-level cables) so the only significant saving is the masts themselves.
The "scenic" argument is a red herring too. Nobody complains about catenary in the Alps or the Pyrenees, or about it being installed across the Pennines further south in the future.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Discontinuous electrification is a silly concept that needs consigning to the dustbin of history. If you're electrifying bits of a route you may as well electrify the whole thing, then you don't need to handicap your electric trains with a load of heavy batteries. Your disconnected bits still need grid supply points (or "extension leads" in the form of ground-level cables) so the only significant saving is the masts themselves.
The "scenic" argument is a red herring too. Nobody complains about catenary in the Alps or the Pyrenees, or about it being installed across the Pennines further south in the future.

I know it is overall less efficient than continuous electrification, but I think the opposition to wiring places like Ribblehead Viaduct will be immense, so it's the only practical way to do it.

Lancaster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2024 ==

Assuming perfect paths were available (total minutes):

• Leeds 0
• Shipley 12
• Bingley 17
• Keighley 22
• Skipton 34
• Carnforth 80
• Lancaster a. 88, depart 93
• Oxenholme 107
• Penrith 132
• Carlisle 151
• Lockerbie 170
• Carstairs 206
• Motherwell 221
• Glasgow Central 241

Note that Leeds to Carlisle is actually quicker than the S&C!

If you're planning that, why not a west-north curve at Carnforth to the WCML, to save the paths and wasted time of a reversal at Lancaster?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I know it is overall less efficient than continuous electrification, but I think the opposition to wiring places like Ribblehead Viaduct will be immense, so it's the only practical way to do it.

Yes, there will be objections... but there are plenty of other "scenic" locations that haven't been "spoiled" by sympathetically-designed OHLE masts. It's a working railway first and foremost, and that should take precedence over subjective aesthetic concerns. Now if the sorts of heavy-duty steelwork used on parts of the GWML were to be proposed, there would be case for objections and I'd join those objecting to it, but there are ways and means of minimising any visual impact.

 

[randyrippley]

I know it is overall less efficient than continuous electrification, but I think the opposition to wiring places like Ribblehead Viaduct will be immense, so it's the only practical way to do it.

If you're planning that, why not a west-north curve at Carnforth to the WCML, to save the paths and wasted time of a reversal at Lancaster?

there's a new housing estate in the way of that idea......(and of course it's built on bogland to make life even more interesting)

 

[The Planner]

If you're planning that, why not a west-north curve at Carnforth to the WCML, to save the paths and wasted time of a reversal at Lancaster?

Depends if Lancaster is a wasted stop and it also means you aren't spending money on a chord which also stops you serving Carnforth.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I know it is overall less efficient than continuous electrification, but I think the opposition to wiring places like Ribblehead Viaduct will be immense, so it's the only practical way to do it.

Absolutely. The majority of passengers travel on the line for the scenery, which would be severely marred by masts and 'knitting'.

If you're planning that, why not a west-north curve at Carnforth to the WCML, to save the paths and wasted time of a reversal at Lancaster?

Because that would a) cost a fortune, b) lose two significant sources of traffic (Lancaster and Carnforth), and c) save you twenty minutes at best.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely. The majority of passengers travel on the line for the scenery, which would be severely marred by masts and 'knitting'.

Try the WCML over Shap and tell me that again! I think that's in many ways better than the S&C.