Salisbury to Exeter if it had not been singled

[30907]

The railway closed post WW2.

Yes, of course, but by the mid 50s the prospect of a station for an area of retirement bungalows and social housing half a mile (minimum) from the railway would be remote. The SR in the 30s might just have bitten...

 

[The exile]

It always strikes me as a bit bizarre that the route entirely by-passes the main resorts.

Coastal geography (lots of ups and downs!) has a lot to answer for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2024 ==

The problem with Sidmouth - apart from the distance of the station from the town - was that branch trains were orientated around Waterloo connections rather than Exeter, the main local flow. It was rather circuitous too - far easier to hop on a Devon General bus along the direct A35 (now A3052)

And also the fact that, like many other places it was far more self-sufficient than we’re now used to, so the number of people actually travelling (outside of a 6 week period) would have been low.

 

[devon_belle]

It always strikes me as a bit bizarre that the route entirely by-passes the main resorts.

There is an interesting history of this. In 1835 it was the 'London, Salisbury, Exeter, Plymouth & Falmouth Railway' (LSEP&FR would have looked silly on a locomotive tender, in my opinion) which proposed a line starting at a junction near Basingstoke and running through Salisbury, Yeovil, Ilminster, Honiton and Exeter, before continuing through Plymouth and Devonport to Falmouth. After various other plans and bills, in 1848 the LSWR passed a bill for a line between Exeter Queen Street and Dorchester. That is the coastal route, so to say. It would have been 10 miles longer than Paddington to Exeter via Bristol, with significantly more difficult terrain. This line would have converged with the current line somewhere between Exeter and Axminster, which means that Sidmouth, Budleigh, and Exmouth would still have been missed. I'd love to see a map, but I haven't yet visited the national archives to do so. One final thing I am not sure of is how many of these towns were 'resorts' per se in the 1840s-60s, or whether they grew after their railway connection was provided.

Could early third rail electrification have improved timings enough to compete with the pre HST Western Region?

I seem to recall timings were still fairly competitive when it was steam on the SR and the first diesels on the WR. I think linespeeds and topography would mean the western line would still be the fastest in the HST era, unless there was a proportionate divestment in the Berks & Hants line in lieu of closing the West of England line.

The problem with Sidmouth - apart from the distance of the station from the town - was that branch trains were orientated around Waterloo connections rather than Exeter, the main local flow. It was rather circuitous too - far easier to hop on a Devon General bus along the direct A35 (now A3052)

I think a 21st century timetable would definitely be Exeter-focused, with an East Devon metro service in place by the time COVID happened, interspersed with long-distance trains to Waterloo and the South Coast.

 

[Senex]

I seem to recall timings were still fairly competitive when it was steam on the SR and the first diesels on the WR. I think linespeeds and topography would mean the western line would still be the fastest in the HST era, unless there was a proportionate divestment in the Berks & Hants line in lieu of closing the West of England line.

Wasn't the Atlantic Coast Express three hours between Waterloo and Queen Street, calling at Salisbury and Sidmouth Junction only? From memory, that did stack up quite well against the Western timings of those days. And — especially considering that there was no massive modernisation — the line was certainly a fast one, as some of the old Cecil J Allen journey-logs shew (and personal memories of travel on the ACE behind Merchant Navies seem to confirm).

 

[Western Sunset]

I seem to recall timings were still fairly competitive when it was steam on the SR and the first diesels on the WR. I think linespeeds and topography would mean the western line would still be the fastest in the HST era, unless there was a proportionate divestment in the Berks & Hants line in lieu of closing the West of England line.

If I recall correctly, the Southern route got one into London much earlier from Exeter than the GW. There was an early London departure from Exe Cent at 7.30am, whilst down the hill at St David's one had to wait until around 9am for the first London.

 

[30907]

If I recall correctly, the Southern route got one into London much earlier from Exeter than the GW. There was an early London departure from Exe Cent at 7.30am, whilst down the hill at St David's one had to wait until around 9am for the first London.

Indeed - and from about 1957 there was a 6.30 up, though both were semi-fasts, and a competitive 7pm down.
However, timings generally on both routes weren't exciting until the Golden Hind was introduced about 1965.

 

[Western Sunset]

I forgot about the 6.30am one! As you say, it wasn't until Fiennes was around that the WR got its act together.

 

[randyrippley]

If I recall correctly, the Southern route got one into London much earlier from Exeter than the GW. There was an early London departure from Exe Cent at 7.30am, whilst down the hill at St David's one had to wait until around 9am for the first London.

During Warship & 33 days the first up from Exeter got to Yeovil Junction around 7.00am, so must have left Exeter before 6.00.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Renewing double track with a single line saved significant capital cost, a major concern for governments of the time. It was often major track renewal jobs or resignalling schemes that determined the timing of such work. Singling sometimes allows clearance to be improved through bridges and tunnels, on the Hastings line for example to avoid the need for special narrow bodied rolling stock. It might allow electrification without so much work on structures or allow track to be slewed to a new 'racing line' through a curve to improve speed a bit. Singling can also create more space with better maintenance access for trackside signalling equipment and cabling.

Though singling can sometimes be a false economy. For example the line between Huddersfield and Clayton West Junction was singled in the mid 1980s- at that time, the not-quite-hourly service could easily be accommodated on the singled route, as can the current hourly schedule... but the single line now sees more than double the traffic than each line did back when it was double, as it is used in both directions.

 

[Irascible]

Seaton’s fortunes went downhill when the railway closed. A familiar story.

And still going downhill even now - all the light industry is more or less gone & Tesco managed to obliterate one of the holiday camps. Also a familiar story in the south-west. The tram & the Jurassic Coast centre have picked up a little tourist trade, but the town centre is definitely struggling.

in 1848 the LSWR passed a bill for a line between Exeter Queen Street and Dorchester. That is the coastal route, so to say. It would have been 10 miles longer than Paddington to Exeter via Bristol, with significantly more difficult terrain. This line would have converged with the current line somewhere between Exeter and Axminster, which means that Sidmouth, Budleigh, and Exmouth would still have been missed

Well, that's pretty much exactly where the road goes, and it's also just about the only corridor available. It's a pity that never got built, because that would have done wonders for moving about the south coast. As it is the old frontier of the kingdom of Devon & Cornwall ( somewhere between the Axe & Bridport ) still is something of a frontier socially...

A proper coastal route would be 50% tunnel - the escarpments are regular & high ( Dunkeswell airfield sits on one and it's the highest licensed airfield in the country ) and all north-south. The line is already on the most practical route, I think. Honiton & Axminster are not insignificant places for the area themselves.

 

[30907]

During Warship & 33 days the first up from Exeter got to Yeovil Junction around 7.00am, so must have left Exeter before 6.00.

The 10.08 arrival into Waterloo remained constant from 1957 until the 50s arrived. ISTR the slowest time involved an 0555 departure from St Davids. By contrast the 1982 t/t has 0625 due 0949!

 

[simonw]

Seaton’s fortunes went downhill when the railway closed. A familiar story.

This kind of statement gets made quite a lot about various towns. However is there any research that shows it to be true and if so does it show that it was the railway closing rather than many of the other factors that have affected seaside towns in the UK.

 

[Xavi]

This kind of statement gets made quite a lot about various towns. However is there any research that shows it to be true and if so does it show that it was the railway closing rather than many of the other factors that have affected seaside towns in the UK.

It is anecdotal. In Devon and Cornwall those towns that retained their rail connection have faired relatively well, though not all those that lost a rail connection have suffered e.g., Padstow.

 

[simonw]

It is anecdotal. In Devon and Cornwall those towns that retained their rail connection have faired relatively well, though not all those that lost a rail connection have suffered e.g., Padstow.

I would argue that there are many seaside towns still connected by rail are in the doldrums whereas others flourish and have no rail service. The causal between loss of rail service and decline is not established.

 

[randyrippley]

The 10.08 arrival into Waterloo remained constant from 1957 until the 50s arrived. ISTR the slowest time involved an 0555 departure from St Davids. By contrast the 1982 t/t has 0625 due 0949!

that 05:55 departure would match what I said.
There was an earlier up train which started at Yeovil and left around 06:40, and for a while was made from the returning paper train. Later it was a 33/TC combination

 

[yorksrob]

I would argue that there are many seaside towns still connected by rail are in the doldrums whereas others flourish and have no rail service. The causal between loss of rail service and decline is not established.

I think it's probably too much to say that loss of a rail service caused the decline of resorts, however it's likely a contributory factor.

 

[geoffk]

• Brighton/Portsmouth to Cardiff trains would still run, as semi-fasts.

Did you mean Brighton/Portsmouth to Plymouth? The Cardiff service would not have been affected by keeping double track west of Salisbury.

 

[Jaydubya]

Research by Gibbons et al on the spatial impacts of the Beeching axe is worth a read. The general conclusion is that the places that saw their rail connections withdrawn and no improvement in road access suffered with population decline and so on. In some cases the population may have been in decline anyway but without a railway and poor road access places like Ilfracombe, Seaton etc would have been unattractive to those looking to access jobs in larger urban areas such as Exeter. They still are today. For places without the railway that appear to be doing well the quality of the ‘place’ (natural and man-made) attracting residents and visitors will be important.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094119024000615?via%3Dihub

 

[43096]

It is anecdotal. In Devon and Cornwall those towns that retained their rail connection have faired relatively well, though not all those that lost a rail connection have suffered e.g., Padstow.

But did they retain their rail connection because they had fared well? Chicken or egg?!

 

[RT4038]

I think it's probably too much to say that loss of a rail service caused the decline of resorts, however it's likely a contributory factor.

I suspect the land of the RENFE (amongst others) contributed much more, and of course increasing car ownership making 'boarding house' and 'sea front' holidays less popular.

 

[devon_belle]

Did you mean Brighton/Portsmouth to Plymouth? The Cardiff service would not have been affected by keeping double track west of Salisbury.

I certainly did! Thank you.

 

[Xavi]

I would argue that there are many seaside towns still connected by rail are in the doldrums whereas others flourish and have no rail service. The causal between loss of rail service and decline is not established.

Not sure I can name a Devon and Cornwall rail connected seaside town that's 'in the doldrums' from a tourism perspective. The economy in Paignton is not great, though tourism has faired better than other sectors.

 

[cle]

There is probably a negative / inverse correlation. Swanage, Lyme Regis and many others, especially on the Atlantic coast... far nicer than Bognor, Eastbourne or Littlehampton - to name a few very well rail connected seaside towns.

But they always were nicer. Scenically, nicer water and beach, further from London...

 

[simonw]

Not sure I can name a Devon and Cornwall rail connected seaside town that's 'in the doldrums' from a tourism perspective. The economy in Paignton is not great, though tourism has faired better than other sectors.

I didn't say Devon and Cornwall I said sea side towns generally.

 

[Xavi]

I didn't say Devon and Cornwall I said sea side towns generally.

Fair enough, though the topic of this thread is Salisbury - Exeter (and associated branch lines). To avoid any confusion, Lyme Regis is (just) in Dorset!

 

[Grecian 1998]

I suspect that if Salisbury - Exeter had stayed double track, Exeter - Paddington would still have remained the primary route. The GWR route from Exeter to Plymouth was always going to win further west due to being faster, serving a far larger population, and logistically forming the natural connection to the Cornish Main Line. As Gerry Fiennes noted in I Tried to Run a Railway, this led to two issues, Firstly the 1 in 37 climb up to Exeter Central which would always necessitate a standing start. Secondly, the need to reverse. Both of these would have been far bigger issues in the 1960s than when the HSTs arrived 15 years later. AIUI the diesel hydraulics rarely topped 30mph when cresting the South Devon banks. Also worth noting that an up HST running Penzance - Waterloo on one power car would almost certainly have been terminated at Exeter St Davids. IIRC they were only allowed over the South Devon banks if Totnes was omitted as a stop - not possible if reversing at Exeter St Davids.

Very few realistic passing points either for a mix of fast and slow services. There were loop lines at Seaton Junction, but assuming that closed, stopping passenger services in the middle of nowhere isn't popular (look how rarely Tiverton Junction loop is used by scheduled passenger services).

In that scenario, you might have simply had an hourly service for many years with fairly basic signalling, stopping at all stations bar the Devon villages along possibly with Templecombe and Tisbury. In more recent years you could then have hourly stopping services from Exeter - Axminster and Yeovil Junction - Waterloo - pretty much what the long term goal now is.

That said, I do recall one down service in the 1995 summer timetable leaving Waterloo at 10:15 and after Salisbury, calling at Yeovil Junction, Axminster and Honiton only before arriving at Exeter Central at 1301. There might have been a few fast services planned but I expect they would have been the exception rather than the rule.

Interesting that Yeovil Junction is always seen as the most important intermediate station when its passenger numbers have been significantly lower than any of Axminster, Gillingham or Honiton for many years. Sherborne has also overtaken it at times, although not currently. Whilst it may be the station for the town of Yeovil, the town is a bus ride or an unnerving 40 minute walk along a fairly busy road with no pavement or verge, and no other onward connections.

In terms of the branch lines, I doubt any of them could realistically have remained open. Lyme Regis and Sidmouth stations were totally inconvenient for the towns. Given how much more sedentary people are now than they were in the 1960s, I couldn't see either being much use now. If there was a burning need to reconnect Lyme by rail, you'd probably build a new line from scratch largely in tunnel so you could take it to a level in Lyme where it might actually be of use.

Seaton might have had some chance if a connecting spur eastwards had been built so the branch trains could be diverted into the branch platform at Axminster, allowing the closure of Seaton Junction. I can't see running for a few miles over the mainline causing too many capacity issues as long as there was a crossover, and the connection of Seaton and Colyton to a station justifying regular stops in its own right could be helpful. You could also pick up some school traffic to Colyton Grammar School.

I don't see that anything was likely to happen differently in reality, but then this is speculative discussion.

 

[devon_belle]

In that scenario, you might have simply had an hourly service for many years with fairly basic signalling, stopping at all stations bar the Devon villages along possibly with Templecombe and Tisbury. In more recent years you could then have hourly stopping services from Exeter - Axminster and Yeovil Junction - Waterloo - pretty much what the long term goal now is.

I'm inclined to agree with this. It is interesting (and somewhat disappointing) that the line probably wouldn't have been utilised much more than it is now singled. I do, however, think that the Plymouth–Portsmouth services (once per day in each direction) would have survived. Maybe up until the mid-2000s we would have seen some other similar services, such as Exeter–Weymouth. If Yeovil Pen Mill to Castle Cary had stayed doubled, there may even have been more options to connect the Yeovil stations with other nearby destinations.

Interesting that Yeovil Junction is always seen as the most important intermediate station when its passenger numbers have been significantly lower than any of Axminster, Gillingham or Honiton for many years. Sherborne has also overtaken it at times, although not currently. Whilst it may be the station for the town of Yeovil, the town is a bus ride or an unnerving 40 minute walk along a fairly busy road with no pavement or verge, and no other onward connections.

I think by nature of it being a junction (although, these days, not a very useful one) it garners a little more precedence than it deserves. In our speculative universe, it may not have been seen as so important and could therefore be a passing place for any (irregular) fast services to get around the stoppers. This would require the Axminster stoppers to extend eastwards, otherwise Crewkerne would be very poorly served indeed. At the risk of scope creep, If Yeovil Pen Mill had a better service as a result of the SR keeping the Heart of Wessex, maybe Yeovil Junction could have been closed. The track would be retained for diversionary purposes I am sure.

 

[Irascible]

Interesting that Yeovil Junction is always seen as the most important intermediate station when its passenger numbers have been significantly lower than any of Axminster, Gillingham or Honiton for many years. Sherborne has also overtaken it at times, although not currently. Whilst it may be the station for the town of Yeovil, the town is a bus ride or an unnerving 40 minute walk along a fairly busy road with no pavement or verge, and no other onward connections.

In terms of the branch lines, I doubt any of them could realistically have remained open. Lyme Regis and Sidmouth stations were totally inconvenient for the towns. Given how much more sedentary people are now than they were in the 1960s, I couldn't see either being much use now. If there was a burning need to reconnect Lyme by rail, you'd probably build a new line from scratch largely in tunnel so you could take it to a level in Lyme where it might actually be of use.

Seaton might have had some chance if a connecting spur eastwards had been built so the branch trains could be diverted into the branch platform at Axminster, allowing the closure of Seaton Junction. I can't see running for a few miles over the mainline causing too many capacity issues as long as there was a crossover, and the connection of Seaton and Colyton to a station justifying regular stops in its own right could be helpful. You could also pick up some school traffic to Colyton Grammar School.

If you're looking at truncating, then Yeovil would seem an obvious endpoint given it's use as a diversory route plus the ability to interchange ( if you're going to shut Yeovil to Salisbury, might as well run what trains are left into Town Pen Mill). Jct station itself, no, I don't find it particularily important.

Running Seaton branch trains into Honiton & perhaps out to a turnback siding if necessary ( maybe just bi-di signalling Honiton & enough crossovers would do it ) would avoid constructing a pretty awkward triangle, and retain the possibility of just carrying on to Exeter.

 

[simonw]

Fair enough, though the topic of this thread is Salisbury - Exeter (and associated branch lines). To avoid any confusion, Lyme Regis is (just) in Dorset!

It is and is a flourishing place despite 60 plus years of no railway.

 

[yorksrob]

It is and is a flourishing place despite 60 plus years of no railway.

It does seem to suffer from a large volume of traffic - possibly contributed to by the 60 years of no railway.