Not to mention the FOI information on the 197’s is just the unit cost. I wonder how much they’ve come to cost with all of their delays and issues. Us Cambrian crews still aren’t trained on them yet and they’re still being tested on here.
Seems the Ford diesel engines do not like being switched on and off, although other diesel engines in hybrid buses do?
I think the reason for the gen sets shutting down and overheating is due to the fact they're housed in a box, poor design but then again probably not designed to run constantly, time will tell on their performance after the upgrades but looking at the design, to be honest I won't hold my breath. The batteries are now time expired also so that's another £6-8m being spent unless they've already been replaced, they are a total disaster I feel.
If the 230's were designed better I'm sure they could easily have kept to the 150 timings, however, the 197's couldn't, this was the reasoning in the run time increase, I was shocked that TFW were boasting a Ppm of 80% on the line from 50%, 80% ppm is also a very poor figure but I doubt upper management with their lack of railway experience actually knew that. Let's hope the upgrades do the trick, they've cost too much so far to be honest.
Although in a road vehicle the engines are in a box, engine compartment. The important thing is to ensure the radiators, air filters and fans are working well.
Thanks "TDK" for your comments, particularly that Geo Fencing idea, Sadly I think that ATW and TfW were hooked into a dream that hasn't become reality. IMHO Vivarail should have rebuilt 230001 or 230002 with the "features" it was selling, so that a hybrid battery 230 could be proven over the route, particularly with the ability to shut the diesels down in "environmentally sensitive" locations.
As I've mentioned before, in a road vehcle application the primary mode of cooling comes from the radiator and engine bay being perpendicular to the airflow over the vehicle (i.e it's facing the front) and the faster the vehicle goes, the greater the airflow is (and the cooling fans will then be turned off by the ECU).
The 230s will inevitably condemned at the point where the cost more to keep in service than they are worth.
Maybe, maybe not. As of yet, they are not condemned.
So, just how the 197’s operate on the line now then?
There's already two 197s working the line and they cycle between Wrexham and Chester each day already.
Plus there were plans for a half hourly service which needed 4 diagrams, hence the acquisition of 5 230’s. So you’d need at least 4 197’s to replace them in full (if they still want the half hourly service). Personally I don’t want to see 197’s taken from other routes to cover the borderlands as that would be a reduction in capacity. If they decide to get rid of the 230’s and acquire additional 197’s for the route then that would be fine, I have no specific love for the 230’s.
Well they’ve certainly committed to trying to sort them out so not likely to see any changes to the fleet.
How much further budgeted expenditure will TfW allow to be dedicated to the five units in the Class 230 mini-fleet?
Who knows ayy?
I agree to some degree, but the plans for the 230s have changed somewhat compared to their initial blurb. We were told the 230s would work some services on the Blaenau branch, as well as some Chester-Crewe work in addition to the Borderlands route. IIRC that was before the first 230 had even been delivered to the route.
Thanks for your insight, although hybrid operation is now common in road vehicles it is not in rail trains.
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Each genset raft has it's own 12V battery to power it's starter, ECU, fans and other electrical ancilliaries. Here's the picture of the genset raft I posted earlier in the thread:
Ahh perhaps initially there was no plan for a half hourly service on the borderlands. Maybe that’s become a thought with them now being dedicated to that line.
Their use on Blaneau and Crewe - Chester was only ever meant to be temporary. It was always the plan that once the 197s arrived the 230s on those routes would be cascaded to join the others on Bidstons and the service would go from hourly to half hourly. In the end that phase was skipped for various reasons, and all 5 units went straight to Bidston. Sadly, they're still not relatable enough several years later to allow a half hourly service be introduced.
Thanks very much for explaining this. IMHO Vivarail were still very much developing battery traction technology when their business failed. From what you say, I wonder if Vivarail deliberately tried to kee pthe installations as simple s possible to achieve the "quick change" status - being able to swap a raft in 15 minutes using a stacker truck. Perhaps battery coolling matrices would complicate it ?Each genset raft has it's own 12V battery to power it's starter, ECU, fans and other electrical ancilliaries. Here's the picture of the genset raft I posted earlier in the thread:
If they had thought about it a bit more, they could have used a heat exchanger-based carriage heating system that used recovered heat from the genset rafts and the overheating battery rafts (which inexplicably had no cooling system implemented as part of their design).
They only had to look at the design practices used in other, more mature EV fields. All electric road vehicles have some form of temperature regulation (for both cooling and heating - Lithium batteries do not tolerate being charged or discharged in cold or temperatures either) in their battery packs, as it's a fundamental law of battery physics that cells (no matter which chemistry is used) will heat up while being discharged or charged, with the rate of temperature change usually being linked to the rate of charge or discharge.
Timetable changes don’t really mean a lot to the 230’s. The only thing that will be likely change the situation is the mods being successful.
They've increased the number of services by 50% so it would be a very poor state of affairs if that wasn't the case but it doesn't make the countless £millions spent value for money or the ridiculous lengths they have gone to to save face and keep the 230s operating worthwhile.
Henry Posner III of the Railroad Development Corporation showed commercial wherewithal in giving the Class 230 project enough time and money to be a success if that was possible and when it began to look like a money drain for no realistic successful ending, took the only correct decision and ended the project.
I agree. The quick change feature for the diesel pods on the diesel 230s yes. But the the setup for the battery structure would be different in nature I would have thought. I am disappointed that none of the parties involved were actually able to run a battery hybrid testbed 230 over the route a few times before the sale was agreed. Computer simulations cannot always deliver robust and reliable data. and it seems to be the 230s will be a millstone around the Senedd's neck for as long as they are in service.
I would be interested to know if the Railroad Development Corporation were aware of any UK finance of size and knowing that, would ensure they terminated their interest and left matters in charge of any residual UK finance which would be great enough to keep Vivarail afloat.
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