Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[johncrossley]

Are you sure? For a single journey to be £4, you're assuming that "the vast majority" of passengers changes at least once. I'm not sure that's true - Fairly certain it's not for "within" an urban area here. And two journeys with changes (i.e. 4 journeys) already brings you over the day ticket price.

Obviously people are discouraged from changing due to the fare system. But obviously within an urban area with a typical hub and spoke network, if you are going anywhere other than the town centre or on the direct bus route to the town centre, you will need to change buses. So whilst buses are typically used for bus trips to the town centre, for *potential* single journeys (which is what I said earlier) within an urban area you will more than likely need to change buses. For example, if there are 100 bus stops in an urban area and you can only reach 10 other stops directly from your local stop.

Of course, the prevailing British view is that buses are only a realistic option for direct buses from your local bus stop, but of course that means that all other trips are left to the car. In a larger urban area such as the major conurbations, quite a few people probably change buses even today.

You are right, of course, that 4 singles is more than a normal day ticket, so the £2 fare doesn't even save money for return trips other than where both outward and return don't involve changes.

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If it was politically acceptable to do so in London, which probably has a significantly higher number of people without fixed addresses than anywhere else in the country), I don't see why it shouldn't be acceptable elsewhere.

Dealing with cash causes the bus companies significant overheads, the cost of which has to come from somewhere - i.e. fares. I am not saying that abolishing cash payment would reduce fares, but it would mean that some marginal routes would be less likely to be abolished. And the £2 fixed fare scheme could be raised in price slightly, rather than drag on until it becomes uneconomic and is abolished (by whatever political party eventually decides it is time to pull the plug).

Quite right, and it cannot be emphasised enough that London did this OVER 10 YEARS AGO! Technology and payment habits have evolved considerably since then.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'm not sure how the funding is working, but surely this is fraud aswell?

I'd assume a passenger travelling 1 mile isn't getting reimbursed at the same rate as someone travelling 50 mile.

As has been said before, reimbursement is a lump sum offered (albeit not paid) in advance. So it bears no relation to a ticket issued on an individual journey. So no ‘fraud’ at all…….

 

[jon0844]

I’m sure some bus companies will have seen the benefit and keep going with it either way. I hope so at least.

Even with the best will in the world, if other operators go back to charging in fare stages and prices rise - they aren't going to stay at £2 for long.

I have seen a big increase in bus usage and wouldn't want to see the £2 fee axed, and even increasing it to £2.50 is quite a jump. Perhaps putting an upper limit on distance (for example £2 from Harlow to Heathrow) before it goes up to, say, £3 or £4 flat rate, might work.

Some people, perhaps with shopping or just because of heavy rain or cold, might only want to ride a bus for a few stops. £2 then seems expensive, but it's a simple and known fare, so it is actually profitable. Some people will go further and feel they're getting a very good deal. Perhaps those who want to go from start to end on rural buses that might travel a very long distance, will have to accept paying a bit more - but you could of course introduce discounted day tickets for them.

The Government should be looking at getting bus patronage up, which will then justify running more buses at higher service frequencies - which is usually what then triggers more demand and usage because of what someone has already said - you can just turn up at a bus stop and go, not have to consult a timetable. And better information on buses, including those delayed or cancelled, is essential. Bustimes.org is a great resource, as are many bus operator apps directly, but not showing that a bus isn't running (especially if the next one is over an hour later) can effectively undermine all the benefits of the £2 rate.

Some people will not use a bus again even if it's free. All that hard work gone.

 

[Belperpete]

Obviously people are discouraged from changing due to the fare system. But obviously within an urban area with a typical hub and spoke network, if you are going anywhere other than the town centre or on the direct bus route to the town centre, you will need to change buses. So whilst buses are typically used for bus trips to the town centre, for *potential* single journeys (which is what I said earlier) within an urban area you will more than likely need to change buses. For example, if there are 100 bus stops in an urban area and you can only reach 10 other stops directly from your local stop.

Of course, the prevailing British view is that buses are only a realistic option for direct buses from your local bus stop, but of course that means that all other trips are left to the car. In a larger urban area such as the major conurbations, quite a few people probably change buses even today.

You are right, of course, that 4 singles is more than a normal day ticket, so the £2 fare doesn't even save money for return trips other than where both outward and return don't involve changes.

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Quite right, and it cannot be emphasised enough that London did this OVER 10 YEARS AGO! Technology and payment habits have evolved considerably since then.

The other big advantage of not accepting cash on buses in London is that it considerably speeded up boarding times. There has been a row in Wales that the increased journey times caused by the 20 mph limits has made some routes uneconomic. If increased journey times makes routes uneconomic, then the same must surely apply to delays caused by dealing with cash.

As others have already pointed out, one of the advantages of the £2 fare is that it is fairly easy to deal with in cash. Increasing it to say £2.50 would significantly increase the cash handling time. Increasing it to £3 would be a fairly massive hike. I suppose one solution would be to follow the London example, where those who pay cashless pay less than those who want to buy an old fashioned ticket. So increase the flat fare to £3 for those who want to buy an old fashioned ticket by cash, but to £2.50 (or whatever) for those paying cashless.

The other advantage of London's cashless system is that it meant they could introduce the two-hop, so that people making the kind of two-hop journey you describe only pay the same as those making a one hop journey. It would be good if any increase to the current flat fare included such a scheme. However, it would probably only be practical where both hops were with the same operator. In the rural area where I live, most routes are run by different operators.

 

[Fox192]

The direction of travel seems to be towards more combined authorities (I think with Greater Lincolnshire and East Yorkshire getting ones in May), and some have equivalent fares themselves (I think Greater Manchester brought a £2 scheme in early, and London already had the Hopper fare). Of course, not all of England's in a combined authority, and CAs might not necessarily be able to afford to maintain the cap themselves.

Can I ask what you mean about East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire getting a combined authority? Is it the franchising or something else

 

[Recessio]

If it was politically acceptable to do so in London, which probably has a significantly higher number of people without fixed addresses than anywhere else in the country), I don't see why it shouldn't be acceptable elsewhere.

Dealing with cash causes the bus companies significant overheads, the cost of which has to come from somewhere - i.e. fares. I am not saying that abolishing cash payment would reduce fares, but it would mean that some marginal routes would be less likely to be abolished. And the £2 fixed fare scheme could be raised in price slightly, rather than drag on until it becomes uneconomic and is abolished (by whatever political party eventually decides it is time to pull the plug).

I don't think you're entirely understanding what I'm saying. Oyster is acceptable because you can still load an Oyster card with cash, at certain TVMs and in e.g. Corner shops. That way, for example, people without bank accounts (such as, but not limited to, those without fixed addresses) can still pay with cash because they load an Oyster card with cash. Also, people can budget by only loading certain amounts of cash onto their Oyster and not using auto topup.

I would not support, and don't think it is politically viable anyway - an entirely cash free system, such as the forced use of only contactless debit cards, which would require a bank account.

No, No and no again. As I and others mentioned up thread, there are many people who use cash for budgetary reasons, often those with least disposable income. It is just just people without bank accounts, but people on any form of limited budget.
Aside from two small operators who don't provide scheduled services any more (one because they pulled out of their sole one-bus contract in favour of extensive contract/coaching work, the other because the business closed owing to retirement) who didn't have card facilities, I haven't paid cash on the bus since the day the big group company introduced contactless payments. That doesn't mean I think other people should have that facility withdrawn because I'm held up for 30 seconds whilst they put two £1 coins (and a 50p, if I had my way) on the cash tray.

You can load an Oyster card with cash and budget that way. I don't see how that's any different to paying the driver.

 

[158756]

As has been said before, reimbursement is a lump sum offered (albeit not paid) in advance. So it bears no relation to a ticket issued on an individual journey. So no ‘fraud’ at all…….

And issuing the correct ticket slows down the bus while the driver selects it on the ticket machine. From my observations the £2 fare cap has caused a significant increase in the number of single tickets sold (some of that is hopefully new passengers, but a lot will be people switching from weekly or other app based tickets, or buying two singles instead of a return), so issuing all tickets to the same place probably saves a fair bit of time over the course of the day.

And that's reasonable if you consider that a big proportion of passengers would be using weekly/monthly tickets that would not average £4.10 per jouney. When this all started First West Yorkshire were offering a £2 fare of their own if paid for on their app.

I wonder how much money the bus companies actually make from high single fares. Bearing in mind period tickets, returns or day tickets often priced not much higher than a single, various app tickets like your West Yorkshire example, and the price of a single acting as a significant deterrent to anyone who would need one actually using the bus.

How many people were actually paying expensive single fares? And how many potential passengers do they lose, not just people who would have had to buy a single, but also the reputational effect of eye-watering single fares on the average non-bus user who doesn't know all the ins and outs of the apps and the various tickets available?

 

[Belperpete]

I don't think you're entirely understanding what I'm saying. Oyster is acceptable because you can still load an Oyster card with cash, at certain TVMs and in e.g. Corner shops. That way, for example, people without bank accounts (such as, but not limited to, those without fixed addresses) can still pay with cash because they load an Oyster card with cash. Also, people can budget by only loading certain amounts of cash onto their Oyster and not using auto topup.

I would not support, and don't think it is politically viable anyway - an entirely cash free system, such as the forced use of only contactless debit cards, which would require a bank account.

You can load an Oyster card with cash and budget that way. I don't see how that's any different to paying the driver.

There are already various types of card that you can load up with cash at supermarkets and the like, for things like prepayment meters. I suppose what is needed is for a similar thing for bus fares (and potentially trains etc too). There would be costs involved in administering such a scheme, but hopefully it would be more than offset by the savings made by the bus companies in not having to deal with cash, let alone the other advantages.

Unfortunately I suspect that it would have to be a government initiative, just as Oyster was a TfL initiative, as I doubt that it would be possible to get agreement from all the individual bus companies involved for a national scheme. And I can't see the current cash-strapped administration coughing up for it, or a Tory administration wanting to set up yet another quango to run it.

Unfortunately, without such a scheme, I doubt that the flat fare scheme has a long term future.

 

[Megafuss]

But surely this would cause issues aswell? Just picking a route out say the 21 from Newcastle to Durham. If everyone has Durham tickets but in reality 2/3 of the bus is emptying at Low Fell which is 1/4 of the route in (actually does happen) then it opens the door for GoNorthEast to just claim people are going anywhere because they don't have a clue.

I know Arriva at Ashington have been very strict recently, down to the level of grilling people for exact bus stop names, which few people know, as they just name the local town/village usually. Ashington having the Newcastle to Berwick routes which could be a real minefield for manipulation if the data is off.

They will just look at boarding numbers as it will be simply far too much data to look at. Remember, they'll be doing that for both directions, so they should see a similar number of people travelling both ways but with a "lump" at Newcastle/Gateshead, whereas it will be spread out northbound.

If Arriva bothered to promote it's Tap On Tap Off system then they wouldn't need to ask passengers where they are going.

 

[A S Leib]

Can I ask what you mean about East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire getting a combined authority? Is it the franchising or something else

From what I can find, Lincolnshire (including N and NE Lincolnshire) and Hull / East Riding councils were supposed to get (separate) combined authorities set up this autumn, with the first mayoral elections this coming May. I'm not sure if the parliamentary legislation to implement those two was passed before parliament was dissolved for the general election.

I know there's some discrepancies between combined authority powers, but all of them cover local transport / key route networks at least, so I'd expect buses at least to be covered.

 

[johncrossley]

As others have already pointed out, one of the advantages of the £2 fare is that it is fairly easy to deal with in cash. Increasing it to say £2.50 would significantly increase the cash handling time. Increasing it to £3 would be a fairly massive hike. I suppose one solution would be to follow the London example, where those who pay cashless pay less than those who want to buy an old fashioned ticket. So increase the flat fare to £3 for those who want to buy an old fashioned ticket by cash, but to £2.50 (or whatever) for those paying cashless.

I would also have a premium for buying tickets from the driver by card, instead of using Tap and Cap or similar.

The other advantage of London's cashless system is that it meant they could introduce the two-hop, so that people making the kind of two-hop journey you describe only pay the same as those making a one hop journey. It would be good if any increase to the current flat fare included such a scheme. However, it would probably only be practical where both hops were with the same operator. In the rural area where I live, most routes are run by different operators.

TfGM are actually going to start offering that in the new year using paper tickets! This seems daft to me. Single tickets will be scanned on subsequent buses like a day ticket. This will inevitably lead to arguments after the hour has expired. Wheres with contactless the passenger will simply have another fare charged to the card overnight.

 

[Mgameing123]

I'm cautious of the fact this is a thread specifically about the £2 fare, so resisting the temptation to join the tap on/tap off or ENCTS debates too deeply to keep on topic.


I'm not sure this stands up to scrutiny, although I'll accept you probably have anecdotal evidence. I suspect for many, the ENCTS bus pass is something you apply for because it's a nice thing to have if you need it. My father has one, and I think he's used it about half a dozen times in two years, usually with me. Why? Because mum doesn't qualify yet, so cumulatively, it's still easier to use the car. Will mum qualifying change much? I doubt it - they are used to the convenience of a car (or walking).


There may have been fares "before" that have now moved to being capped, or cap levels - that was certainly the case with an evening special fare here, that rose from £1.70 to £2. Will there still be an evening fare if the cap goes, or will they just hope we've quietly forgotten about it? I think the reality is there are very few fares now, especially in the south, that could be offered for less than £2. Otherwise, do we start differentiating almost stop by stop, and have people walking to a less-convenient stop to save 20p?


Sorry, I don't agree with "a small rise in line with inflation". I appreciate it may be hard for some, but one of the great benefits of a £2 fare is that is is simple. Raising it to £2.10 or £2.20 isn't. Furthermore, I think it has been said on here by "learned commenters" that the transport industry has generally had much higher than inflation cost increases across the board, whilst also fewer passengers and lower-than-inflation contract uplifts. I think the only logical jumps are 50p at a time.


Here I do agree - there is a notable disconnect between 16-18 (and 18-21) in England versus the great freebie cliff-edge that is ENCTS age*. I'm not sure changing ENCTS qualification is the best option, though. Perhaps if ENCTS was properly and fully funded (magic money tree?) then operators would be allow child fares for all "legal children" of their own accord? Unlike my local operator, who have recently decided to make child fares 85% of the adult fare..
I fear you are quite right in regard to the ratio of repayment for any subsidized fare scheme "basket" versus fare paying passengers, and can you blame the operators? If you were told it would cost you X pounds for an amount of coffee, pizza, pints of beer... whatever you choose) regardless of how much or how little you could actually consume, you probably wouldn't say "I'll just have one", would you?!

*I hasten to add this is unbridled sarcasm...


Again, I don't doubt you for some people, but I suspect an awful lot more people know the price of a loaf of bread or a pint of milk than you think, especially those with low disposable income. I might know the exact price of either, but I know that the yellow supermarket charges me something like 20p more if I pick up 4 pints of "farmer's milk" rather than "regular milk", and I know if they charge me £1.50 for a loaf of bread then the price of wheat has gone up that week.


Did it jump because of the cap, or did it jump because of various other factors since 2022 that have put the price up, and the operator considered £2 was "easier" (if not morally quite right) than, say, £1.80?


Again, a lot comes down to disposable income. On my local route, many more people at the suburban end of the route pay by card or phone app, than do in the "grittier" end of the route nearest town, where incomes are significantly lower.


Hmm... not sure I agree here. Ticket machine data does, of course, give a lot of information, but I think that is more for nuances. How would it already know if you were going A to C via B (where you have to change bus) if you weren't using a day ticket, for example? For subsidized routes, it often comes down to pure passenger numbers versus cost and a headline figure of "per passenger journey".


So essentially returning to a fully staged system, but with multiple caps? I think that's going to be more of a problem than an improvement, especially as distance-based fares tend to only be very vague in the UK. At its extremes, you'd end up with one end of a village paying more than the other, or headlines of "why does that village that's 5.5 miles away pay £2, but we, who are only 4.5 miles away, have to pay £3" headlines in local newspapers.


It's not really a subsidy, though, is it? I described it to a non-enthusiast a few months ago as a supermarket being told everyone can buy what they like, but the supermarket can't charge more than £50, and if they are over 65 then you can't charge them at all. In return, we'll give you a fixed amount of money, called an offer but which is only partly negotiable based on a random selection of things an educated guesswork number of people will buy, and make it out like we're doing you a favour. Her jaw dropped.. and I think she mentally replanned a few "this £2 fare is great" days out...

Do I think the fare cap has been a good thing? Absolutely. I'd be a hypocrite to say anything else based on how often I've used it (as I said in an earlier post, my regular bus fare was £4.10 single - at less than half price travel I can't complain). Do I think the time has come to look at the viability of it, and how we can find a new normal? Also absolutely. I'd rather have a £2.50 bus every 12 minutes that's viable than a bus every 15 minutes because £2 wasn't... likewise, I'm sure users of less frequent routes would rather have hourly at £2.50 than not at all at £2.

Honestly I think the UK should learn from the Danish nationwide zone system. It’s quite complex but it makes sure that you don’t get scammed. So basically a good if I buy a 3 zone ticket I can travel 3 zones and it would be valid for 1 hour 15 minutes (the time depends on the amount of zones you want to travel) and within those 1 hour 15 minutes I can take whatever bus and train I want within those zones. It helps eliminate paying double because your taking 2 buses.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As mentioned earlier in the thread though, it would require something like Oyster nation-wide, that can still be loaded with cash. Else it would be discriminating against people without bank accounts.

Do most regions not have something similar? We certainly do in Bristol. And even more generally you can get prepayment cards that act as debit cards that you can load with cash - I'd imagine they could be used with a contactless system too. The technology exists for all this already.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I would also have a premium for buying tickets from the driver by card, instead of using Tap and Cap or similar.

Fine if you have a lone passenger. What about a parent wanting to pay for themselves and their kids on the same card? Hardly seems fare to surcharge them for it.

 

[ChrisC]

I would also have a premium for buying tickets from the driver by card, instead of using Tap and Cap or similar.

There’s definitely both a north-south and city-rural divide here. We don’t have tap and cap or anything similar. Even if you pay by card or phone you have to tell the driver where you are going to before you are issued with a ticket. On Stagecoach East Midlands buses even ENCTS pass holders are issued with a ticket after they have scanned their pass. The biggest hold ups around here are those paying by phone who do not have their phone set up ready when boarding. When London buses went cashless almost everyone was already using Oyster etc. Around here, especially around the less affluent ex mining towns and villages, cash is still used quite widely not just on buses but also in shops and pubs.

 

[johncrossley]

Fine if you have a lone passenger. What about a parent wanting to pay for themselves and their kids on the same card? Hardly seems fare to surcharge them for it.

Give kids smartcards like in London. In London, paying the driver isn't even an option.

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There’s definitely both a north-south and city-rural divide here. We don’t have tap and cap or anything similar. Even if you pay by card or phone you have to tell the driver where you are going to before you are issued with a ticket. On Stagecoach East Midlands buses even ENCTS pass holders are issued with a ticket after they have scanned their pass. The biggest hold ups around here are those paying by phone who do not have their phone set up ready when boarding. When London buses went cashless almost everyone was already using Oyster etc. Around here, especially around the less affluent ex mining towns and villages, cash is still used quite widely not just on buses but also in shops and pubs.

Cash is only used on the bus because it is allowed and there is no premium. For about 10 years before London went cashless, there was a significant premium for paying in cash to get people to stop using cash. If the operator doesn't offer any incentive to stop paying in cash, people will continue to do it. I bet these people who currently pay in cash would quickly change to alternatives if they had to pay £3 instead of £2.

 

[Vexed]

It seems to me that what we need for eliminating cash is a nationwide standard smartcard... sounds like ITSO to me! It allows for cash balance like Oyster and corner shops could be used to top it up. Maybe I'm being a bit very idealistic but it would be nice to finally see ITSO being used to its full potential on busses.

 

[miklcct]

Bus companies are worrief that Labour will scrap the cap. I honestly think they should and make fares more distance based again. But still keep prices cheap. Without the cap a return ticket from Windsor to Maidenhead would cost £7.90. Could Labour instead finance a 50% or higher reduction of ticket prices if they are let’s say higher than £1? Because anything under £1 would most likely be a short hop fare and we shouldn’t encourage shorts hops over walking.

The only way it can be a benefit is with a hefty bung from the government to make up the shortfall. Apart from some very local urban routes with a high churn, a £2 fares cap is never going to be commercially viable – you would never attract enough extra passengers to bring in enough money to run the service, or heck even if you could somehow attract that many passengers, you wouldn't be able to fit them on the bus!

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I like the idea of a long-term plan to keep bus fares at a more affordable level, but without necessarily having the same high cost to the public (and distorting effect on the market) that the £2 fares cap has ... but the question is, how do you define it? A maximum fare per mile? You would need to have a sliding scale, long-distance routes have lower per-mile costs than urban routes, and it would not work out so well for operators that charge higher fares but provide a premium service. Or 50% of the 2022 fares (adjusted for inflation)? Seems complicated to enforce, and what about routes that are new or in other ways substantially different from 2022? How do you decide what an appropriate level of subsidy is?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, not at all – but logistically there's a lot more thinking that needs to go on around implementation before we can really assess whether it's a goer.

Whether by design or accident it seems that in many areas rather than being a cap you have a £2 flat fare. Indeed after being charged £2 for going three stops I asked our local operator if there were any fares under £2 as I was unable to find any on their online fares guide.

There is almost an issue at both ends where the £2 cap is overly generous for longer trips, but there is no incentive to bring fares down for local journeys.

For example, why pay £4 (or multiples thereof if travelling as a group) to pop in to town when you can pay a quid or two to park for a couple of hours? Finding the balance will be tricky, but £1 or £1.50 for rides under say 10-15 minutes could well get a lot of people out of cars.

Another issue is linked journeys. London does this well where a single fare applies when you change, but away from there, unless you are lucky enough to have a direct bus to where you are going you end up paying for 2 singles, or buying the relevant day ticket. (Not always available if multiple operators are involved, or at least not that cheap)

One issue I can see why any variable cap though is enforcing it - which is the beauty of the current system. How many drivers could keep track of how far someone buying a short hop ticket actually travels?

We are almost putting the cart before the horse here - what's really needed is a country-wide Oyster-like system, tap on and off, then we can start planning distance-based fares.

Definitely, they should make the cap distance-based instead. The £2 cap results in over-subsidy of long distance journeys such as London - Windsor but helps nothing to reduce private transport usage in towns and cities.

I'd say that the cap should be £0.25 per km, regardless of route type, rounded up to the nearest km with a minimum of 2 km (£0.50) to be charged (such that walking remains the priority for journeys under 1 km).

In order to enforce fare payment, a nationwide system (equivalent to Netherlands's OV) needs to be set up with tap on tap off, and the discount must not be available with cash.

 

[Kite159]

Hopefully some sort of fare cap will remain in 2025, even if it jumps from £2 to say £2,50 or even £3.

Better than not knowing how much a bus fare will be until you board the bus as is the case for some of the operators (other than Stagecoach) due to the prices being hidden away for single tickets

 

[LUYMun]

Delete

 

[Qwerty133]

Definitely, they should make the cap distance-based instead. The £2 cap results in over-subsidy of long distance journeys such as London - Windsor but helps nothing to reduce private transport usage in towns and cities.

I'd say that the cap should be £0.25 per km, regardless of route type, rounded up to the nearest km with a minimum of 2 km (£0.50) to be charged (such that walking remains the priority for journeys under 1 km).

In order to enforce fare payment, a nationwide system (equivalent to Netherlands's OV) needs to be set up with tap on tap off, and the discount must not be available with cash.

Charging by distance only works if it is done by the crow flies rather than by the route taken by the bus due to the way that many routes weave in and out of housing estates adding theoretical distance to the journey.

 

[820KDV]

With reference to an possible national Oyster style system, work is already in progress on a nationwide tap and cap ticketing system for buses. Project Coral, instigated by Midlands Connect, has support of all the main bus groups, most Local Transport Authorities and is funded by the DfT. There is also involvement from the various payment system providers.

Whilst initially set up as a bus only scheme, trams, ferries and cycle / e-scooter hire are now being considered too.

Some detail Here and Here, and the need to be inclusive for those wishing to continue to pay cash is part of the scheme.

Returning to ENCTS which has also been discussed above, in my area, a rural unitary authority, ENCTS usage is at about 80% of pre-Covid levels, and that seems to be about where the new normal will be. However, pass issues are as high as ever; people are claiming them, but them not using them, or only very rarely using them. As a council we have been regularly promoting ENCTS, through various electronic media accounts, and email newsletters. Yes, some will probably say that older people aren't on-line, but the levels of on-line application for passes suggest otherwise, and there is word of mouth from those who do see the adverts to their elderly parents. The issue seems to be that the smaller shops and cafes etc have closed so there is less to tempt ENCTS people out on the bus.

With the £2 fare itself, locally it has increased passenger numbers, but whether that is due to the good value, of the simplicity of knowing that its '£2 any trip' we don't know. Again, as a council, we are regularly promoting the bus generally and the £2 fare. We are concerned what a sudden end to the scheme will do for ridership, other than boarding times will reduce as people switch back to season and carnet tickets rather than purchasing a £2 single every trip (although to ease things one of our operators offers £4 returns under the cap).

One thing not yet mentioned in this discussion is that there is a "temporary" 5p / litre reduction in fuel duty at the moment. Ending that would cover the cost of the £2 fare and some, but every Government Department is no doubt laying claim to that income, if the Treasury is brave enough to upset the motorist and end the reduction.

 

[158756]

Give kids smartcards like in London. In London, paying the driver isn't even an option.

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Cash is only used on the bus because it is allowed and there is no premium. For about 10 years before London went cashless, there was a significant premium for paying in cash to get people to stop using cash. If the operator doesn't offer any incentive to stop paying in cash, people will continue to do it. I bet these people who currently pay in cash would quickly change to alternatives if they had to pay £3 instead of £2.

The delay is more from having to pay the driver rather than the method of payment. I'd say with the £2 cap (meaning most passengers have the correct change ready) cash is not really any slower than card payment. And you don't get any hold ups from cash being declined, or the common fault of putting the card on the reader too early.

Pre-paid app tickets do help but like phone payments you get connection problems and people not having them ready (not helped by the design of some apps). They don't scan as reliably as contactless cards either.

 

[takno]

The delay is more from having to pay the driver rather than the method of payment. I'd say with the £2 cap (meaning most passengers have the correct change ready) cash is not really any slower than card payment. And you don't get any hold ups from cash being declined, or the common fault of putting the card on the reader too early.

Pre-paid app tickets do help but like phone payments you get connection problems and people not having them ready (not helped by the design of some apps). They don't scan as reliably as contactless cards either.

My experience in Edinburgh (no change given) is that cash is typically by far the fastest payment mechanism, with contactless just slightly slower, concessionary cards being significantly slower than that because they take quite a long time to read. People fumbling haplessly with the app typically taking significantly longer than if they paid with all the other possible methods one after the other.

 

[johncrossley]

The delay is more from having to pay the driver rather than the method of payment..

There should really be no need for driver ticket sales nowadays when a card is being used. London buses have never issued paper tickets from the driver when the passenger uses a contactless bank card.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There should really be no need for driver ticket sales nowadays when a card is being used. London buses have never issued paper tickets from the driver when the passenger uses a contactless bank card.

Except child / student etc fares, or cases where somebody is paying for another passenger (e.g a partner etc).

 

[jon0844]

There’s definitely both a north-south and city-rural divide here. We don’t have tap and cap or anything similar. Even if you pay by card or phone you have to tell the driver where you are going to before you are issued with a ticket. On Stagecoach East Midlands buses even ENCTS pass holders are issued with a ticket after they have scanned their pass. The biggest hold ups around here are those paying by phone who do not have their phone set up ready when boarding. When London buses went cashless almost everyone was already using Oyster etc. Around here, especially around the less affluent ex mining towns and villages, cash is still used quite widely not just on buses but also in shops and pubs.

While there are certainly people who are slow to get money/card ready to pay, there are people who find that buses with the Ticketer system are often delayed (even told off) for saying where they want to go and presenting their phone/card before the driver has selected the ticket and made it ready.

I can't be sure if you need to remove the card and represent it, or can just hold it in place until the machine detects it, but the process isn't super smooth and often causes issues that just adds to the delay.

I'm sure those who use London buses (and other buses with similar systems) are more likely to assume they can pretty much get on and tap than those who are perhaps more used to speaking to the driver and being told how much to pay, then pay.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2024 ==

Definitely, they should make the cap distance-based instead. The £2 cap results in over-subsidy of long distance journeys such as London - Windsor but helps nothing to reduce private transport usage in towns and cities.

I'd say that the cap should be £0.25 per km, regardless of route type, rounded up to the nearest km with a minimum of 2 km (£0.50) to be charged (such that walking remains the priority for journeys under 1 km).

In order to enforce fare payment, a nationwide system (equivalent to Netherlands's OV) needs to be set up with tap on tap off, and the discount must not be available with cash.

Fare stages have always been horrible because I don't think I've ever been able to find out what the fares will be before travel, as bus companies just don't publish the data on their websites. It has always confused me as to why and how they've been allowed to do this.

But I totally agree about a distance based charging system, so the £2 fare isn't 'open to abuse' (I put that in inverted commas on the basis that it isn't abuse if it's set up to allow it) and doesn't end up having a detrimental effect on the service provision.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2024 ==

The delay is more from having to pay the driver rather than the method of payment. I'd say with the £2 cap (meaning most passengers have the correct change ready) cash is not really any slower than card payment. And you don't get any hold ups from cash being declined, or the common fault of putting the card on the reader too early.

Pre-paid app tickets do help but like phone payments you get connection problems and people not having them ready (not helped by the design of some apps). They don't scan as reliably as contactless cards either.

When people want to pay cash, they often present a note and are told there's no change - although some drivers would do so, which was inconsistent. This, sadly, often results in people arguing with the driver and causing a significant delay.

For a while students caught on to this great idea of presenting a £50 note, and when told it couldn't be accepted and there was no way the driver was giving change out of their 'top pocket', they often got to travel for free.

Uno began issuing change vouchers which quickly stopped this problem, but I am not sure the new ticket (Ticketer) machines can do this, or that Uno hasn't simply stopped issuing vouchers (which I believe were valid for 1 year against future travel).

Cash payments should be simple, so always a nice round number like £2 or £3, and not £1.40 or £1.75 or whatever. It will just cause delays as people count out the right money, or moan about not getting change back.

 

[Vexed]

Uno began issuing change vouchers which quickly stopped this problem, but I am not sure the new ticket (Ticketer) machines can do this, or that Uno hasn't simply stopped issuing vouchers (which I believe were valid for 1 year against future travel).

I don't think they do it now, I've seen people been refused / choose not to accept no change when presenting notes (and even in the evening, but that occasion wasn't the last service and the (potential) passenger didn't push back). But maybe this could have just been because the driver didn't know about change vouchers. It does sound like a good idea, especially if they can get a QR code to verify authenticity with Ticketer.

Very few people around here use cash so the drivers don't have a big float these days.

 

[Recessio]

With reference to an possible national Oyster style system, work is already in progress on a nationwide tap and cap ticketing system for buses. Project Coral, instigated by Midlands Connect, has support of all the main bus groups, most Local Transport Authorities and is funded by the DfT. There is also involvement from the various payment system providers.

Whilst initially set up as a bus only scheme, trams, ferries and cycle / e-scooter hire are now being considered too.

Some detail Here and Here, and the need to be inclusive for those wishing to continue to pay cash is part of the scheme.

Returning to ENCTS which has also been discussed above, in my area, a rural unitary authority, ENCTS usage is at about 80% of pre-Covid levels, and that seems to be about where the new normal will be. However, pass issues are as high as ever; people are claiming them, but them not using them, or only very rarely using them. As a council we have been regularly promoting ENCTS, through various electronic media accounts, and email newsletters. Yes, some will probably say that older people aren't on-line, but the levels of on-line application for passes suggest otherwise, and there is word of mouth from those who do see the adverts to their elderly parents. The issue seems to be that the smaller shops and cafes etc have closed so there is less to tempt ENCTS people out on the bus.

With the £2 fare itself, locally it has increased passenger numbers, but whether that is due to the good value, of the simplicity of knowing that its '£2 any trip' we don't know. Again, as a council, we are regularly promoting the bus generally and the £2 fare. We are concerned what a sudden end to the scheme will do for ridership, other than boarding times will reduce as people switch back to season and carnet tickets rather than purchasing a £2 single every trip (although to ease things one of our operators offers £4 returns under the cap).

One thing not yet mentioned in this discussion is that there is a "temporary" 5p / litre reduction in fuel duty at the moment. Ending that would cover the cost of the £2 fare and some, but every Government Department is no doubt laying claim to that income, if the Treasury is brave enough to upset the motorist and end the reduction.

This seems very promising and interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[johncrossley]

Except child / student etc fares, or cases where somebody is paying for another passenger (e.g a partner etc).

London manages to get by without these exceptions.