Class 730 LNR & WMR Delivery/test Updates

[778]

I presume there are too many 730/0s for the current timetable in the Birmingham area (ordered before Covid when it was 6tph) taking into account the Cross-City line, the Wolverhampton - Walsall stoppers (any news on when more 730s are due to appear on that route?) plus anything else they had planned [Chase Line?]

More 730/0s were ordered after Covid. The order for 3 car units increased from 36 to 48.

 

[DannyMich2018]

More 730/0s were ordered after Covid. The order for 3 car units increased from 36 to 48.

Cross City, Wolves-Walsall and Birmingham Int-Rugeley I think require 33 units in total so at least some of the Euston 730 diagrams will have to go back to 350s otherwise 41 out of 48 730s would been needed daily in service.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

41 out of 48 730s would been needed daily in service.

Is 85% avaliabilty not expected, seems pretty reasonable for an EMU?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cross City, Wolves-Walsall and Birmingham Int-Rugeley I think require 33 units in total so at least some of the Euston 730 diagrams will have to go back to 350s otherwise 41 out of 48 730s would been needed daily in service.

Wasn't the idea that all West Mids local 350 diagrams would end, so all of them would be on the WCML?

 

[Halish Railway]

I presume there are too many 730/0s for the current timetable in the Birmingham area (ordered before Covid when it was 6tph) taking into account the Cross-City line, the Wolverhampton - Walsall stoppers (any news on when more 730s are due to appear on that route?) plus anything else they had planned [Chase Line?]

Immediately pre-covid, some of the services (Birmingham to Rugeley and Crewe via Stoke IIRC) that are now to be worked by 730s ran through to London Euston so had to be worked by 350s.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Is 85% avaliabilty not expected, seems pretty reasonable for an EMU?

Let's hope so. I'd imagine also if Cross City went back to 6tph most would go back to 3 car otherwise they'll be not enough units.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

Wasn't the idea that all West Mids local 350 diagrams would end, so all of them would be on the WCML?

Not too sure. I think you're right yes.

 

[crosscity]

Let's hope so. I'd imagine also if Cross City went back to 6tph most would go back to 3 car otherwise they'll be not enough units.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

The previous WM mayor (Andy Street) put paid to that with the new New St-Kings Norton via the Camp Hill line service. The two DMU's an hour re-instate 6tph to Kings Norton only. They knock out the two Crosscity paths that are there.

They could be re-instated if the middle platform at KN is brought into use, but that won't be for years, if ever.

 

[ABB125]

Let's hope so. I'd imagine also if Cross City went back to 6tph most would go back to 3 car otherwise they'll be not enough units.

The original 3-car order (36 units?) was sized to be sufficient for 6-car 6tph all day on Cross City. Based on the current requirement for 11 pairs at 4tph, I reckon this would require 16 pairs, so 32 units from a fleet of 36.
Of course, now that the order has been amended for more 3-cars and thus more Birmingham routes being operated by class 730s, that may change

 

[Kite159]

I never noticed before that the side displays change to displaying something along the lines of "please stand back this train isn't scheduled to call here" when a 730 is passing a station (noticed it when I was on a train running alongside 730002+008 earlier).

 

[warwickshire]

Observations Saturday 14th September 2024 at Birmingham New Street

5Q66 0937 Soho to Tyseley saw 37608 take 730031 to Tyseley Wheelathe.
Should return later this evening

However have 730s been to Tyseley Wheelathe before, also will Soho ever do wheel turning for 730 in future?
Rather than diesel drag 730 to Tyseley for this purpose? Thank you

 

[Liam L]

However have 730s been to Tyseley Wheelathe before, also will Soho ever do wheel turning for 730 in future?
Rather than diesel drag 730 to Tyseley for this purpose? Thank you

More than likely won't have a lathe fitted so will continue have to go external sites but who knows what Alstom has planned.

 

[40029 Saxonia]

9 pairs of 730s in use on Birmingham Cross-City services today (plus 2 pairs of 323s)

730s observed

20+28
23+11
16+30
40+41
46+24
05+10
12+37
09+03
32+33

01 was on the Walsall - Wolverhampton and 03,18 & 47 were visible at Soho

730216 + 231 at Oxley

 

[childwallblues]

730218 and 730203 at Arriva Train Care, Crewe on Tuesday.

 

[800001]

730228 + 730229 Wembley to Gasgoine Wood this afternoon, observed at Hambleton Junction.

 

[Wyrleybart]

730228 + 730229 Wembley to Gasgoine Wood this afternoon, observed at Hambleton Junction.

I don't understand. Why would a trainbuilder despatch brand new trains to a depot, then send them off to store ? Did the Rosco pay for them on delivery, or are they still owned by Alstom until accepted for service ?

Mad world

 

[E6007]

Cos WMT are not ready for them!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't understand. Why would a trainbuilder despatch brand new trains to a depot, then send them off to store ? Did the Rosco pay for them on delivery, or are they still owned by Alstom until accepted for service ?

Mad world

My vague understanding/guess is that Wembley has been used as a base by Alstom for (test) running up and down the WCML. Once the units are deemed good (or even maybe hopelessly bad) they are off to store. Not yet used by the TOC that is supposed to end up with them.

Test running could be Fault Free Running but also just shakedown runs to stop the units getting to cold and damp OR runs to identify/resolve production faults.

It is very clear that a LOT of Aventras (classes 701, 710, 720 & 730) do not go directly from the site of production to the end user. Something that seems to be unusual compared to new builds in the past. I feel a lot of Aventras are just shoved out of the way regardless of whether they pass any kind of QA. My feeling is this is because the sheer volume of orders meant that Derby could not waste time on post production checks - better to get the units out of the way and keep the production line ploughing on. This storage might be exacerbated by the slow pace of introduction at various TOCs.

Any thoughts / corrections ?

 

[DavidGrain]

I also understand that completed trains not yet in service have to be kept in 'warm storage' which means that they have to be taken out for a run every so often.

 

[alm37]

My vague understanding/guess is that Wembley has been used as a base by Alstom for (test) running up and down the WCML. Once the units are deemed good (or even maybe hopelessly bad) they are off to store. Not yet used by the TOC that is supposed to end up with them.

Test running could be Fault Free Running but also just shakedown runs to stop the units getting to cold and damp OR runs to identify/resolve production faults.

It is very clear that a LOT of Aventras (classes 701, 710, 720 & 730) do not go directly from the site of production to the end user. Something that seems to be unusual compared to new builds in the past. I feel a lot of Aventras are just shoved out of the way regardless of whether they pass any kind of QA. My feeling is this is because the sheer volume of orders meant that Derby could not waste time on post production checks - better to get the units out of the way and keep the production line ploughing on. This storage might be exacerbated by the slow pace of introduction at various TOCs.

Any thoughts / corrections ?

My layman’s assessment is the same as yours. I am curious however as to whether at this late stage of production there are contractual or other pressures, whether at Derby or the TOC, to get each batch completed and delivered. As far as I am aware there are only 9 720s, 9 730/2s and 6 701s yet to be delivered (ignoring any which may have been delivered then returned). The only TOC with any of those in real use is GA, and 3 720s have been delivered this week and last. One might expect the others to follow. I wonder how quickly the remaining 701s and 730/2s will take to emerge?

 

[Peter Sarf]

My layman’s assessment is the same as yours. I am curious however as to whether at this late stage of production there are contractual or other pressures, whether at Derby or the TOC, to get each batch completed and delivered. As far as I am aware there are only 9 720s, 9 730/2s and 6 701s yet to be delivered (ignoring any which may have been delivered then returned). The only TOC with any of those in real use is GA, and 3 720s have been delivered this week and last. One might expect the others to follow. I wonder how quickly the remaining 701s and 730/2s will take to emerge?

Indeed. The last six (approximately) of the class 710s took about three months each to come into service. That is what woke me up to this new way of delivering/enduring new trains.

I expect to wake up realising this is all a nightmare.

Time for another thread ?.

 

[87015]

Indeed. The last six (approximately) of the class 710s took about three months each to come into service. That is what woke me up to this new way of delivering/enduring new trains.

I expect to wake up realising this is all a nightmare.

Time for another thread ?.

But the “late” 701/710/720/730 aren’t really wanted by the operators though who don’t have work for them in the current timetables post Covid or aren’t ready for them to enter service awaiting training agreements (etc), so I’m not sure you can draw much from it to say it’s a builders issue, certainly without seeing much confidential paperwork!

 

[Peter Sarf]

But the “late” 701/710/720/730 aren’t really wanted by the operators though who don’t have work for them in the current timetables post Covid or aren’t ready for them to enter service awaiting training agreements (etc), so I’m not sure you can draw much from it to say it’s a builders issue, certainly without seeing much confidential paperwork!

This is true, there is definitely no apparent rush by many TOCS to get them into service.

LO have only just needed the last of the 710s ready for the service enhancements for the East London Line. Though I am a little concerned availability won't allow it.

GA maybe had an easier way forward, just ditching their old trains in favour of an almost 100% homogeneous fleet of 720s. Just rural (using 755s) and intercity (using 745s) not covered. At this stage, Alstom will be just working through the leftovers.

730s look to be next in the queue for arguably needed. As Birmingham area train more crew up I expect the 730/0s out of Euston to happen less, thus leading 730/2s appearing in service.

I assume there are 350s to go - How long is left on the lease for the 350s expected to be handed back ?.
Still a lot of 730/0s not used much, which puzzles me as I think almost all are fully accepted and have been used. That's only 19/48 in use in the West Midlands (The other 29 comprise 8 on loan to South WCML and 17 not in use and 4 on what appears to be testing)

701s there are plenty of hurdles.

 

[Merle Haggard]

But the “late” 701/710/720/730 aren’t really wanted by the operators though who don’t have work for them in the current timetables post Covid or aren’t ready for them to enter service awaiting training agreements (etc), so I’m not sure you can draw much from it to say it’s a builders issue, certainly without seeing much confidential paperwork!

The 730/2 s were ordered to replace 350/2 with the aim of reducing lease costs and for no other reason - the replaced stock is far from life-expired.

The result of those 730s not entering service is that someone has unnecessarily paid, over the last couple of years since their promised delivery, the not-inconsiderable extra lease costs. I would certainly not expect the tax-payer or fare-payer to be the party paying these costs rather those responsible.

But if those responsible are indeed stumping up those extra costs there might have been a motivation to have some urgency. I have failed to detect any sign of this, so am resigned to all this costs falling in the lap of the general public.

 

[87015]

The 730/2 s were ordered to replace 350/2 with the aim of reducing lease costs and for no other reason - the replaced stock is far from life-expired.

The result of those 730s not entering service is that someone has unnecessarily paid, over the last couple of years since their promised delivery, the not-inconsiderable extra lease costs. I would certainly not expect the tax-payer or fare-payer to be the party paying these costs rather those responsible.

But if those responsible are indeed stumping up those extra costs there might have been a motivation to have some urgency. I have failed to detect any sign of this, so am resigned to all this costs falling in the lap of the general public.

See post 2416

 

[Merle Haggard]

See post 2416

Yes, I saw that. WMT not prepared even though they arrived 2 -3 years late
Made that point in my post

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Part of the delayed entry into service is down to the initial Abellio order for DOO trains, this affected the 196 introduction immensely both from a training/union and retrospective changes to the units. Same with the 730s.

Also the impact of change from franchise to management model for the company has completely changed timelines given spend needs to be rained in and costs proved to be value for the public purse. Given the lack of movement on the Bescot TMD, delayed work on Soho and Bletchley to be able to accept and maintain the units it's hardly surprising that training was then delayed and so has entry. IMO it's all just a knock-on effect.

Even now, almost all drivers at my depot sign 730s yet some having to have refreshers as other than the little Walsall work they don't often work them. Only just had conductor managers and conductor coaches sign off so there will be a fair few months more to wait until the /2s enter service for sure.

 

[45076]

Had a drive by Litchurch today (18-09-24) and the only 730/2 car identifiable was a centre car from 730236. This was near the fence on Osmaston Road.

 

[800001]

Had a drive by Litchurch today (18-09-24) and the only 730/2 car identifiable was a centre car from 730236. This was near the fence on Osmaston Road.

That’s been there for about a year, no idea why.

 

[St. Paddy]

730230 delivered to Oxley today, then 730216 moved to Gasgoine Wood

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2024 ==

730230 delivered to Oxley today, then 730216 moved to Gasgoine Wood

730232 delivered to Wembley today 20/9

 

[Peter Sarf]

730022 has escaped Crewe CS (and at least one recent return trip to Liverpool). Currently on Wolverhampton/Walsall via Birmingham workings.