TPE charge for using the wrong type of Railcard

[stubpb]

A few days ago, I bought a train ticket for my mum from Liverpool lime Street to York single I did it through an app via Uber, which I use all the time.

My mum has a senior railcard, whilst I have a disabled railcard.

When I booked her ticket, I genuinely forgot to change it from a disabled railcard to a senior railcard as she was travelling on her own (the disabled railcard offers the holder and a +1 both 33% off all tickets, a senior railcard offers the named person 33% off).

She got on the train and the inspector came around and said "ring your son", so she rang me; the train guard informed me, that her ticket is invalid because she doesn’t have a disabled railcard, and she has shown me a senior railcard. I explained that I have a disability and hold the disabled railcard.

My mum has received a letter from Trans Pennine express only 2 days after she travelled informing her that she has to pay £66.10 for the tickets which cost £9.60 to start with and £50 fine and a £10 admin fee, obviously I’m really not happy with the situation, but it was a genuine mistake. This never happened before.

My mum is in her 70s and is now starting to panic because she doesn’t have the money to pay the fine, which is a lot of money. I don’t have the money to pay the fine but if we appeal what is the chance the appeal will get turned over because if we appeal will she get taken to court. I don’t know what to do, and to be fair, I’m pretty miffed with Transpennine.

She had her Railcard, so she would get the discount that I get for my Railcard, and she had a validated ticket, so clearly didn’t refuse to pay or travel without one. The 21 days to appeal starts today. Thank you in advance.

 

[Haywain]

You could try writing to TPE and explain what happened and ask that they accept your apologies for the error, but I think you might have to be realistic and accept that the amount they have asked for to settle the matter is actually at quite a reasonable level. You will be able to find other threads here involving TPE where the administrative fee element is at a much higher level than £50.

 

[jamiearmley]

Hi.

The letter clearly states in the last paragraph on the first page that if you have a valid rail card which you were unable to present at the time of inspection then you should follow the instructions and submit the details of that rail card.

If you submit the details of your mother's senior rail card then the matter will be closed and you will not have to pay anything.

This would appear to be the TPE method of enacting the forgotten rail card policy - although the letter is threatening and is clearly designed to try and get you to pay money rather than to send in your rail card.

Please do not worry.

Please send in details of your mother's rail card as detailed in the letter.

Once this has been received by transpennine express, and they have checked at the rail card was indeed valid at the time of travel, then that should be the end of the matter.

If you have any trouble negotiating the online system which they appear to want you to use to submit the details of your mother's rail card, then I would recommend that you contact them by post as suggested in the letter.

With a little effort, this will soon be resolved.

Good luck!

 

[Haywain]

If you submit the details of your mother's senior rail card then the matter will be closed

Will it though? The ticket wasn't Senior Railcard discounted and presumably the OP's mother presented that railcard at the time of the ticket being inspected.

 

[jamiearmley]

Will it though? The ticket wasn't Senior Railcard discounted and presumably the OP's mother presented that railcard at the time of the ticket being inspected.

I recon it will. There's no financial loss, and discretion should have been shown at the time. Give them the opportunity to show discretion now I reckon. The disabled Railcard holder making the booking makes use of discretion more likely, as well.

 

[some bloke]

Perhaps photos of both railcards, and brief statements from both people, would make it easier for the company?

 

[Vivi2010]

I recon it will. There's no financial loss, and discretion should have been shown at the time. Give them the opportunity to show discretion now I reckon. The disabled Railcard holder making the booking makes use of discretion more likely, as well.

I agree. Unless things have changed in the past 10 years (which is possible), TransPennine would need to prove an attempt to defraud and a loss of revenue.

Considering the passenger had a valid Railcard with her, which would have given her the exact same discount, I don't see TransPennine winning this one in court.

In all likelihood, they will end up dropping the case before taking it to court anyway.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree. Unless things have changed in the past 10 years (which is possible), TransPennine would need to prove an attempt to defraud and a loss of revenue.

No, they wouldn’t, and never have under the Railway Byelaws.

 

[Vivi2010]

No, they wouldn’t, and never have under the Railway Byelaws.

Bearing in mind that there is a difference of £0 between the tickets, if OP argues his case and TransPennine took this to court, how do you see things playing out?

 

[AlterEgo]

Bearing in mind that there is a difference of £0 between the tickets, if OP argues his case and TransPennine took this to court, how do you see things playing out?

It’s hard to say, but the prosecution neither has to prove a loss of revenue nor any intent when prosecuting someone under the Bylaws. Indeed, train companies can and do prosecute people successfully when the company doing the prosecuting has suffered no revenue loss at all.

 

[gray1404]

It looks like TPE are treating this as a forgotten Railcard situation. So you could see if they settle the matter upon you logging on and uploading a copy of her Railcard for her.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2024 ==

Please keep any reply you wrote to them short and concise. Your post here is very long.

 

[skyhigh]

It’s hard to say, but the prosecution neither has to prove a loss of revenue nor any intent when prosecuting someone under the Bylaws. Indeed, train companies can and do prosecute people successfully when the company doing the prosecuting has suffered no revenue loss at all.

Indeed, I am aware of prosecutions where the passenger has actually overpaid compared to the correct fare. As mad as that sounds.

 

[Vivi2010]

It’s hard to say, but the prosecution neither has to prove a loss of revenue nor any intent when prosecuting someone under the Bylaws. Indeed, train companies can and do prosecute people successfully when the company doing the prosecuting has suffered no revenue loss at all.

I don't want to derail the thread too much but, about 10 years ago I had a run-in with a notorious RPI. I had been sold an incorrect ticket and the RPI pulled me aside prior to boarding and wanted me to come back to the ticket office with him to rectify the problem. I said something to the tune of 'Thank you! I wondered why it was more expensive than last time.'

RPI's face fell at this point and he no longer wanted to go back to the ticket office with me. He refused to return the ticket and insisted that I had to pay a penalty fare and buy a new ticket on top of the ticket I had already paid for. I refused and said that I would buy a new ticket and submit a complaint to get a refund for the ticket he had confiscated. He kept insisting on a penalty fare and then banned me from the station for the day.

I submitted a complaint and had a lovely chat with the station manager who was absolutely sick of the RPI's behaviour. She probably shouldn't have told me any of it, but I heard tales about how this guy had apparently been threatening passengers with violence, extorting passengers, had set fire to a passenger's bag, etc. Nothing was done as he was always picking on single passengers, while backed up by a colleague who denied any of the allegations.

ANYWAY, on to the point. It was during this discussion that I was told that the ROC would be unlikely to pursue the case in court as they would need to prove that I had attempted to fare dodge and the ROC arguing that I had purposely bought a more expensive ticket to try and deprive them of money would make them look like fools in court.

Indeed, when the letter did come in the post, I explained that I had accidentally purchased a more expensive ticket and the ROC dropped it.

Now maybe the station manager was wrong about all of this and didn't know how the law regarding penalty fares worked, but it certainly makes sense to me.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with what @jamiearmley has said but I would also submit a brief letter saying something like:

On dd/yy/mm I purchased a ticket on behalf of my mother to travel from Liverpool to York. My mother is a vulnerable person in her 70s and has difficulty purchasing her own tickets. She holds a Senior Railcard. Unfortunately I inadvertently applied a Disabled Persons Railcard discount to the ticket, this is because I hold a Disabled Persons Railcard myself.

While I aknowledge that technically the ticket was invalid, the issue only occurred because of an administrative error on my part. The correct fare was paid and Transpennine Express has suffered no loss of revenue. In view of this, I am asking if you will consider cancelling the notice. I have uploaded a copy of my mothers Senior Railcard and my own Disabled Persons Railcard for your information.

 

[johnny_t]

Incidentally, if TPE did choose to play hard ball and not show any discretion in this case, I'd definitely take this one to the papers. No-one should fail to have sympathy for your situation that has resulted in exactly the correct fare being paid.

 

[WesternLancer]

Raising it with you MP might get better outcome that newspaper report (esp give TPE run by govt so directly accountable to ministers who are accountable to MPs) - or both MP and paper could be an option

 

[peteb]

You do have to watch the online ticket sites. Northern for example remembers the last ticket bought so will apply, say, a senior Railcard discount automatically. This happened to me and my wife once (both senior Railcard holders) and I bought 2 tickets, but forgot that on the previous journey I'd had my son with me on his young persons Railcard. So I bought 1 senior and 1 YP by mistake. I only realised when the revenue protection person on West Midlands Trains pointed it out. They were quite relaxed however and said it was obviously a genuine error, and we both had paper railcards to show them, so no action was taken.

 

[stubpb]

Will it though? The ticket wasn't Senior Railcard discounted and presumably the OP's mother presented that railcard at the time of the ticket being inspected.

The ticket was disabled railcard discounted (my railcard) and my mum has a senior railcard that she had shown when asked. It was a genuine mistake on my part not even noticed by myself. But the discounts in question is still the same except two people go on the disabled railcard where 1 only on seniors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

I agree with what @jamiearmley has said but I would also submit a brief letter saying something like:

On dd/yy/mm I purchased a ticket on behalf of my mother to travel from Liverpool to York. My mother is a vulnerable person in her 70s and has difficulty purchasing her own tickets. She holds a Senior Railcard. Unfortunately I inadvertently applied a Disabled Persons Railcard discount to the ticket, this is because I hold a Disabled Persons Railcard myself.

While I aknowledge that technically the ticket was invalid, the issue only occurred because of an administrative error on my part. The correct fare was paid and Transpennine Express has suffered no loss of revenue. In view of this, I am asking if you will consider cancelling the notice. I have uploaded a copy of my mothers Senior Railcard and my own Disabled Persons Railcard for your information.

So are you saying do the appeal or follow the wrong railcard route ?

 

[Hadders]

Upload what I suggested writing, along with both railcards to the link in the 'if you wish to dispute your liability for this matter' section. i.e. upload it to tpexpress.co.uk/drpusupport