Northern issue "DO NOT TRAVEL" warning for 08/09/2024

[dk1]

And if you weren't aware, the arrangement you suggest was enjoyed by many rail staff before Covid came along anyway. Certainly drivers' pay rises were linked to the RPI and either matched it exactly or had an additional increment on top, every year.

Yes several of our pay deals were based on the likes of a guaranteed 2.3% or RPI plus 0.5% whichever is the greater.

 

[Halwynd]

It's been explained a million times why neither the TOCs nor the Government want Sundays inside the working week, despite the Unions and many staff being in favour of it.

And if you weren't aware, the arrangement you suggest was enjoyed by many rail staff before Covid came along anyway. Certainly drivers' pay rises were linked to the RPI and either matched it exactly or had an additional increment on top, every year.

Oops, sorry for speaking...

 

[skyhigh]

Can assure you no bus or coach company pays quad time

Yes, I know, but @Bletchleyite was suggesting Northern pay that much to secure replacement buses.

so hence it’s actually cheaper to run buses than trains, 1 wage as opposed to 2.

Except the driver is still sitting in work being paid when their service is cancelled due to no guard being available.

The solution to this issue is to, as a stopgap, pay guards a Sunday rate they actually want to work for and longer term negotiate a deal to bring Sunday inside the working week (wether that is just for new starters or everyone).

 

[D9006]

Yes, I know, but @Bletchleyite was suggesting Northern pay that much to secure replacement buses.

Except the driver is still sitting in work being paid when their service is cancelled due to no guard being available.

The solution to this issue is to, as a stopgap, pay guards a Sunday rate they actually want to work for and longer term negotiate a deal to bring Sunday inside the working week (wether that is just for new starters or everyone).

He did actually say it would save having to pay bus drivers quad time. Agree though in both industries if the incentive is there to work overtime most staff will work it. But higher management always put a block on it.

Noticed yesterday planned RR between Wigan and Manchester with the Southport to Oxford Rd going via Chat moss but on a 2 hourly service. Would have thought with reduction in overall service an hourly service could have been achieved but I guess planning made a 2 hourly service a guarantee

 

[yorksrob]

So the much vaunted OLR have been in charge here for four years and they've yet to resolve this issue? Or is it they have a solution but the DfT wont sign off on the additional opex on what is already the most subsidised TOC/passenger carried in England.

If you recall, we've only just had the opportunity to replace the DfT's paymasters, so four years of OLR is irrelevant.

 

[richfoz84]

Having used to work for Northern,
The simple facts for such a poor service are;

Rock bottom staff morale
Sundays outside the working week
Not enough volunteers for overtime
Not enough staff to run a basic service

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is my memory tricking me or did the Sunday chester- Manchester (northern) services only used to go as far as Altrincham?

Perhaps. I don't remember it.

Non-stop it is close (and running non-stop would be pointless, you'd use TfW to Picc and then Metrolink to Altrincham), stopping at the intermediate stations puts it clearly over the 50km limit.

I thought it was like 49km running Alty - Northwich - Chester. May be mistaken. In that case, all stops services Stockport split at Northwich may make more sense.

 

[Goldfish62]

Having used to work for Northern,
The simple facts for such a poor service are;

Rock bottom staff morale
Sundays outside the working week
Not enough volunteers for overtime
Not enough staff to run a basic service

So it failed when private and is clearly failing when nationalised. Seems like any solution involving a complete culture and ways of working change is going to take years, but then passengers continue to suffer and be driven away in the meantime.

Maybe an answer is long-term bustitution on selected lines until the railway can actually consistently deliver the service it's meant to.

 

[43066]

I'm saying that will be the natural response of many people.

Which people? Can you point to some numbers showing passenger numbers are falling?

As for 'our customers will always return' that complacent approach was what was behind so many well known stores going bankrupt in thr past decade.

Look after your customers. They're the only reason your jobs exist

Not complacency, just reality. I notice you havent actually addressed any of the points I made in post #66.

In any case the failure here is not with staff not “looking after their customers” it’s with management (and the DfT) choosing to rely on volunteers to run the service but not incentivising then properly.

As usual you are blaming front line staff for decisions made by management or in this case the DfT.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

If you recall, we've only just had the opportunity to replace the DfT's paymasters, so four years of OLR is irrelevant.

Indeed. Hopefully that change will in turn herald a change in approach from the OLR.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Is my memory tricking me or did the Sunday chester- Manchester (northern) services only used to go as far as Altrincham?

You are quite right, I'm slightly surprised nobody else has confirmed it.

The Dec 2005 Timetable (just as I joined Northern as ticket office staff) has Altrincham departures at 1010, 1320, 1845 and 2130; from Chester they were at 1200, 1520, 1735 and 2010.

Even that is better than Sept 2000, which had only 1300, 1625 and 1841 from Alty and 1151, 1450 and 1735 from Chester.

 

[Robertj21a]

So it failed when private and is clearly failing when nationalised. Seems like any solution involving a complete culture and ways of working change is going to take years, but then passengers continue to suffer and be driven away in the meantime.

Maybe an answer is long-term bustitution on selected lines until the railway can actually consistently deliver the service it's meant to.

This is probably the best solution for the short to medium term. There's nothing the public like worse than an unreliable train service.
.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If you recall, we've only just had the opportunity to replace the DfT's paymasters, so four years of OLR is irrelevant.

Not really as my question was about whether OLR/NT had a solution to the problem but DfT wouldn't take a risk with additional opex cost vs whether if enough revenue would be generated to cover it.

 

[scrapy]

The big flaw with your plan is that in order to cover a seven day without recourse to overtime, you need seven days' worth of staff. That means that Northern need to recruit and train an extra 16% on top of their existing complement. It's a big task and took TfW five years to accomplisb.

Yes, and the fact that Northern are currently losing drivers and guards faster than new ones can be trained up makes accomplishing what TFW did likely to take a lot longer than 5 years.

 

[Deepgreen]

Getting back to the OP - was the "Do Not Travel" weather-related? The railway is not only seemingly throwing in the towel more and more readily, but it is also unable to provide alternatives, and people in these situations will be forced onto the far more dangerous roads in bad weather. The railway seems to be getting more and more fragile, as opposed to being the robust travel option of days gone by.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting back to the OP - was the "Do Not Travel" weather-related?

No, it was related to the fact that Northern/DaFT can't be bothered (a) employing enough staff, or (b) creating a permanent timetable that they can operate with the staff they have.

 

[Goldfish62]

No, it was related to the fact that Northern/DaFT can't be bothered (a) employing enough staff, or (b) creating a permanent timetable that they can operate with the staff they have.

Very true of course, although as mentioned above Northern can't recruit and train enough staff to maintain to the status quo, let alone increase the staffing establishment. Plus I'd have thought that given the current situation any revised permanent timetable could result in some lines getting little or no service on Sundays, which would simply be politically unacceptable.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Getting back to the OP - was the "Do Not Travel" weather-related? The railway is not only seemingly throwing in the towel more and more readily, but it is also unable to provide alternatives, and people in these situations will be forced onto the far more dangerous roads in bad weather. The railway seems to be getting more and more fragile, as opposed to being the robust travel option of days gone by.

@Bletchleyite is correct that the most recent issue related to staff availability.

However, I am confused about what ‘alternatives’ you had in mind. We all now know that Rail Replacement Buses (and their drivers) are like hens’ teeth these days but don’t those vehicles have to use ‘dangerous roads’ anyway?

 

[Goldfish62]

@Bletchleyite is correct that the most recent issue related to staff availability.

However, I am confused about what ‘alternatives’ you had in mind. We all now know that Rail Replacement Buses (and their drivers) are like hens’ teeth these days anyway but don’t those vehicles have to use ‘dangerous roads’ anyway?

There's always an alternative - usually the private car.

As already highlighted, even if Sundays were brought into the working week tomorrow all it would do would be to spread cancellations throughout the week instead. That's why long-term (eg up to 5 years) bustitution on selected lines may be the only of providing a reliable service that be counted upon. And before anyone says that RR buses and drivers are like hen's teeth, I'm talking about a long-term 7 days a week contract for a bus service - this would be far easier for an operator to resource and to be committed to operating as a permanent fleet and permanent drivers would be utilised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's always an alternative - usually the private car.

As already highlighted, even if Sundays were brought into the working week tomorrow all it would do would be to spread cancellations throughout the week instead. That's why long-term (eg up to 5 years) bustitution on selected lines may be the only of providing a reliable service that be counted upon. And before anyone says that RR buses and drivers are like hen's teeth, I'm talking about a long-term 7 days a week contract for a bus service - this would be far easier for an operator to resource and to be committed to operating as a permanent fleet and permanent drivers would be utilised.

Or just cut the timetable so you can staff it. For instance, does the Ormskirk/Colne/Blackpool S triangle or Southport-Wigan need to be hourly during the day on a weekday, could it be cut to 0.5tph? I think outside school hols it probably could. If you plan that properly and change the diagrams you can max out train lengths, you can't if you're just randomly cancelling.

 

[Blackpool boy]

There's always an alternative - usually the private car.

Which is still using 'Dangerous roads' as the poster was alluding too

 

[Goldfish62]

Or just cut the timetable so you can staff it. For instance, does the Ormskirk/Colne/Blackpool S triangle or Southport-Wigan need to be hourly during the day on a weekday, could it be cut to 0.5tph? I think outside school hols it probably could. If you plan that properly and change the diagrams you can max out train lengths, you can't if you're just randomly cancelling.

I suppose it depends on how much needs cutting to operate a reliable timetable. If some lines were to end up with such a dismal timetable that it turns people away then bustitution may be a better solution (while of course accepting that the very notion of having to use a bus and increased journey times may put some people off anyway).

 

[philthetube]

Service bus operations are at their absolute minimum on a Sunday. Stagecoach, First, Arriva and Go Ahead will have vehicles sat around in depots all around the country. Accessible coaches perhaps not, but certainly accessible buses.

London in particular will have a couple of thousand vehicles sat around doing nothing on a Sunday (the total fleet is apparently nearly 9,000), and driving them up to Manchester would only take four to five hours. And bus driver wages in London aren't high, so if you offered drivers quad or five times time and two nights in a reasonable hotel while they do it you're going to get plenty of takers.



Every man has his price. If the price being offered doesn't result in anyone signing up, increase it until it does. Northern are saving a fortune not operating the trains - given the difference between bus and rail wages the bus drivers could be being offered quad time or even more - are they?





On a Sunday there are likely about 5,000 or more urban buses not being used across the country. You just need to be willing to pay enough to the drivers to get them out.

There is no need to drive the buses up from London, and it would not be practical do do that, many issues about that including putting London bus drivers on to eu regulations.

Sign up the major bus operators to hire out vehicles on a self drive basis and sign up drivers into a pool after assessment provide a decent wage travel and accommodation and they would come'

The bus lenders could do the assessments.

Give drivers credits towards CPC courses and medicals and away you go, loads of drivers.

 

[Goldfish62]

There is no need to drive the buses up from London, and it would not be practical do do that, many issues about that including putting London bus drivers on to eu regulations.

And the not inconsiderable issue that the vast majority of buses used on TfL services are not fitted with tachographs.

 

[Deepgreen]

@Bletchleyite is correct that the most recent issue related to staff availability.

However, I am confused about what ‘alternatives’ you had in mind. We all now know that Rail Replacement Buses (and their drivers) are like hens’ teeth these days but don’t those vehicles have to use ‘dangerous roads’ anyway?

I was basing my thoughts, wrongly, on it being weather-related and TOCs being too ready to give up accordingly. Yes, buses have to use the roads too but I would like to think they are at least a little safer than private cars in those situations. Yes, too, RRBs are a problem, but less so if trains ran more readily. Of course, it being a staff issue, the weather element is moot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==

No, it was related to the fact that Northern/DaFT can't be bothered (a) employing enough staff, or (b) creating a permanent timetable that they can operate with the staff they have.

OK, thanks.

 

[43066]

far more dangerous roads

Road safety isn’t part of the railway’s remit, though, so how is this relevant? If it isn’t safe to operate trains that’s the end of it. The fact people might choose to use the roads instead is of no concern of the rail industry.

 

[philthetube]

And the not inconsiderable issue that the vast majority of buses used on TfL services are not fitted with tachographs.

Maybe that is something for the government to look at, I notice that vehicles carrying sea coal are not required to have them fitted but that drivers have to keep records of hours on duty so maybe RRB work could be relatively simply added to that legislation.

 

[TUC]

Road safety isn’t part of the railway’s remit, though, so how is this relevant? If it isn’t safe to operate trains that’s the end of it. The fact people might choose to use the roads instead is of no concern of the rail industry.

On other occasions much of made about the importance of integrated transport systems, and of encouraging people to use rail instead of cars. Doesn't saying that the fact people might choose to use the roads instead is of no concern of the rail industry amount to the rail industry wanting to have its cake and eat it?

 

[43066]

On other occasions much of made about the importance of integrated transport systems, and of encouraging people to use rail instead of cars. Doesn't saying that the fact people might choose to use the roads instead is of no concern of the rail industry amount to the rail industry wanting to have its cake and eat it?

The poster I replied to was discussing safety, though, which always takes precedence over what might happen “on other occasions”.

Presumably you wouldn’t expect BA and EasyJet to continue operating flights from London to Edinburgh, Newcastle etc., when it’s too windy for them to fly safely, just in case some passengers might switch to using the road?

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Sign up the major bus operators to hire out vehicles on a self drive basis and sign up drivers into a pool after assessment provide a decent wage travel and accommodation and they would come'

I’m confused here - operators lend their vehicles to who? The TOC? Are you suggesting that train drivers should be driving the hired in vehicles?

And the not inconsiderable issue that the vast majority of buses used on TfL services are not fitted with tachographs.

Doesn’t matter, I’ve checked and it’s still OK to manually record drivers hours, although you are expected to then input them into your driver card next time you use a digital tacho again.

 

[43066]

I’m confused here - operators lend their vehicles to who? The TOC? Are you suggesting that train drivers should be driving the hired in vehicles?

If some comments on this thread are anything to go by I doubt ASLEF would be happy with its members doing anything as dangerous as driving road vehicles “on the job”.

Joking aside, I’ve known several train drivers who don’t have car driving licenses, let alone PCV ones. So, for a whole host of reasons, it’s a firm “no” to that idea!