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The 2024 US presidential election.

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Noddy

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But JFK’s speech on 27.04.1961 alluded to a conspiracy that threatened America and its cherished values.
Would you not call out JFK as a conspiracy theorist with kooky ideas then? Or at least paranoid?

Er, that conspiracy, which threatened America, was called the USSR and the Cold War. There was no allusion about it.

To quote a section of the speech:

But I do ask every publisher, every editor, and every newsman in the nation to reexamine his own standards, and to recognize the nature of our country's peril. In time of war, the government and the press have customarily joined in an effort based largely on self-discipline, to prevent unauthorized disclosures to the enemy. In time of "clear and present danger," the courts have held that even the privileged rights of the First Amendment must yield to the public's need for national security.

Today no war has been declared--and however fierce the struggle may be, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion. Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe. The survival of our friends is in danger. And yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired.

If the press is awaiting a declaration of war before it imposes the self-discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say that no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent.

It requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions--by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.

Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match.
 
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edwin_m

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But JFK’s speech on 27.04.1961 alluded to a conspiracy that threatened America and its cherished values.
Would you not call out JFK as a conspiracy theorist with kooky ideas then? Or at least paranoid?
The difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory is evidence, or the lack of it. That speech was about 18 months before the Cuban Missile Crisis.
 

YorkRailFan

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Trump is calling for a Government Shutdown due to the looming deadline of passing the SAVE Act, which would require proof of citizenship when voting:
Donald Trump is pressuring Republicans to shut down the government at the end of this month if Congress doesn’t pass a GOP-backed proposal to establish new election rules nationwide.

Trump has called on Republicans in Congress to link funding the government with the SAVE Act, which would require proof of citizenship to vote — in a bid to target non-citizen voting, which is already illegal. And House Republican leaders are considering adopting the strategy and picking a fight with Democrats.The deadline to fund the government is Sept. 30. The GOP-led House and Democratic-led Senate have to agree on how to move forward in order to prevent a shutdown, and Democrats have decried the SAVE Act as a poison pill.

“I would shut down the government in a heartbeat if they don’t get it,” Trump said on the “Monica Crowley Show” last week.

“It should be in the bill. And if it’s not in the bill, you want to close it up,” he said. “So I’m not there but, you know, I have influence.”

The two parties are nowhere close to agreeing on a full-year government funding package, meaning a continuing resolution, or CR, will be necessary as a stopgap solution. Speaker Mike Johnson, R-La., has not announced how he plans to handle the issue.A House GOP leadership aide indicated Tuesday that tying it to the SAVE Act is under consideration to try and unify the party.

“The length for a CR, as well as bills attached like the SAVE Act, could impact whether some Republicans typically against the spending measure are swayed to vote for it,” the aide told NBC News, requesting anonymity to divulge internal considerations. “Conversations with members are ongoing this week. Nothing is final.”

The strategy is backed by the hard-right Freedom Caucus. Texas GOP Rep. Chip Roy, a prominent Freedom Caucus member, has also been publicly making the case for it.

It’s a risky strategy that could lead to a shutdown on Oct. 1 if Democrats don’t relent — and they are unlikely to. Republicans have been blamed in the past for instigating shutdowns by demanding passage of provisions they cannot pass through the normal process.

Another source of tension between the parties: Conservatives in Congress want to pass a stopgap bill that goes through March 2025, in anticipation of a victory in this fall's elections. But Democrats — and some prominent Republicans — prefer to set a lame duck deadline in order to wrap up negotiations this year.The SAVE Act would require all voters to register to vote with proof of citizenship. Trump and allied Republicans contend the measure is intended to keep non-citizens from voting. Johnson and Trump rolled out the measure at Mar-a-Lago earlier this year.

Sounds like Trump is getting worried, it reminds me of when the Tories introduced mandatory photo-ID for voting in the UK, but this is taking it to another level.
 

DoubleLemon

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The Register
The Biden administration on Wednesday seized 32 websites and charged two employees of a state-owned media outlet connected to a $10 million scheme to distribute pro-Kremlin propaganda, and claimed the actions were necessary to counter Russia’s attempts to influence the upcoming US presidential elections. election.https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/05/biden_cracks_down_on_putins

Hopefully I have the quoting right with a link. X is full of people dismissing the clams. When did the US stop hating Russa / communism- the republicans are falling over themselves to make excuses for and defend an invading country to its neighbour.
 

ainsworth74

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When they elected Trump to a great extent I think, some of this stuff had been bubbling for a while but I think Trump unleashed it. For instance in my view Trump is definitely in some way compromised by Russia (I don't think he's a straight up asset or anything quite as dramatic as that, but he considers Russia useful to his own personal enrichment so is happy to help them out). Therefore he considers Russia, but particularly Putin, to be good/useful to him. The ultra MAGA cultists (his base and the likes of Marjorie Taylor-Greene in Congress) therefore will follow the dear leader on this topic.

I think there's other groups (with overlap between them) who consider that Russia's "rah rah rah we're the greatest and we stand up for Traditional Values" to be an attractive message as they feel that American society has become too soft, too woke, to atheistic, or too Muslim/insert other religion they don't like. Whilst Russia stands up for itself and promotes these "Traditional Values" and therefore is to be envied.

I think there's also an element that a lot of the Republican base has been primed by a couple of decades of Fox News to believe that the United States already is communist, or at least that communists control vast swathes of the Democratic Party and Government at Local, State and Federal levels similarly has become communist. Therefore they don't see it as a threat without anymore but as a threat within. Anyway who is taking a firm stand against those sort of communist western values is to be applauded and Russia is a country which has taken a firm stance against western values.

Finally there's just that latent American isolationism that's been there since their founding. In many respects the level of involvement that the United States has had in global affairs since 1945 is very out of character. I think the likes of Trump and others are simply tapping into that latent streak within the American character to bring up the drawbridge and ignore the world at large. On the right this also taps into what I think is some degree of frustration with the way that the world, including countries which are US allies, are both often seemingly ungrateful for what the US has done for them by providing a great deal of security assistance since the Cold War, fought the War on Terror, continued to be a presence promoting freedom, stability and the rule of law, etc whilst also by not doing enough themselves such as the large number of NATO countries that spend less than the agreed 2% and indeed less than 1% in some cases on their defence whilst expecting the US to bail them out.

I think you add all that together, sprinkle in some grifters who just want to make a quick buck and/or gain access to the levers of power, and you end up in a world where the party of Reagan who wasn't afraid to confront the Soviet Union suddenly seems to be wanting to kowtow to Russia's desires and indeed, in some respects, seems envious of Russia.
 

edwin_m

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The Soviet Union was a communist state and diametrically opposite to American norms and values.

Even though it probably feel much the same to most of its citizens, Russia isn't communist. Most Americans will see communism as a thing of the past, with the possible exception of China. So that ideological opposition has gone.

Russia since 1990 is probably quite close to a Republican oligarch's view of an ideal society. As long as they stay on the right side of the President they are free to milk the economy and bend the law to their own purposes.
 

YorkRailFan

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When they elected Trump to a great extent I think, some of this stuff had been bubbling for a while but I think Trump unleashed it. For instance in my view Trump is definitely in some way compromised by Russia (I don't think he's a straight up asset or anything quite as dramatic as that, but he considers Russia useful to his own personal enrichment so is happy to help them out). Therefore he considers Russia, but particularly Putin, to be good/useful to him. The ultra MAGA cultists (his base and the likes of Marjorie Taylor-Greene in Congress) therefore will follow the dear leader on this topic.

I think there's other groups (with overlap between them) who consider that Russia's "rah rah rah we're the greatest and we stand up for Traditional Values" to be an attractive message as they feel that American society has become too soft, too woke, to atheistic, or too Muslim/insert other religion they don't like. Whilst Russia stands up for itself and promotes these "Traditional Values" and therefore is to be envied.

I think there's also an element that a lot of the Republican base has been primed by a couple of decades of Fox News to believe that the United States already is communist, or at least that communists control vast swathes of the Democratic Party and Government at Local, State and Federal levels similarly has become communist. Therefore they don't see it as a threat without anymore but as a threat within. Anyway who is taking a firm stand against those sort of communist western values is to be applauded and Russia is a country which has taken a firm stance against western values.

Finally there's just that latent American isolationism that's been there since their founding. In many respects the level of involvement that the United States has had in global affairs since 1945 is very out of character. I think the likes of Trump and others are simply tapping into that latent streak within the American character to bring up the drawbridge and ignore the world at large. On the right this also taps into what I think is some degree of frustration with the way that the world, including countries which are US allies, are both often seemingly ungrateful for what the US has done for them by providing a great deal of security assistance since the Cold War, fought the War on Terror, continued to be a presence promoting freedom, stability and the rule of law, etc whilst also by not doing enough themselves such as the large number of NATO countries that spend less than the agreed 2% and indeed less than 1% in some cases on their defence whilst expecting the US to bail them out.

I think you add all that together, sprinkle in some grifters who just want to make a quick buck and/or gain access to the levers of power, and you end up in a world where the party of Reagan who wasn't afraid to confront the Soviet Union suddenly seems to be wanting to kowtow to Russia's desires and indeed, in some respects, seems envious of Russia.
Interestingly, Sky News is reporting that Putin wants to see Harris in the White House:
Vladimir Putin has claimed Russia's preferred choice to enter the White House is Kamala Harris, saying she has an "infectious laugh".

An infectious laugh is certainly an interesting reason to want someone to become US President.
 

brad465

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Interestingly, Sky News is reporting that Putin wants to see Harris in the White House:


An infectious laugh is certainly an interesting reason to want someone to become US President.
This is classic tribal mind games, he knows he's unpopular and believes that whoever he says he likes will cause a number of voters to vote the other way. This is what also happened in the Brexit vote, some Brexit voters did so because David Cameron and some other unpopular "elites" backed remain.
 

YorkRailFan

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BBC News is reporting that Trump is looking at enlisting Elon Musk on Heading a Government Efficiency Task Force:
Donald Trump said he would enlist Elon Musk to run a “government efficiency commission” if he wins a second term as US president.

Speaking to the Economic Club of New York on Thursday, Trump said the X owner had agreed to head a task force to conduct a “complete financial and performance audit of the entire federal government” and make “recommendations for drastic reforms.”

The two men have alluded to the idea for several weeks, but Thursday's comments were Trump’s most direct indication yet that he might want Mr Musk to play a role in his potential second administration.

“I look forward to serving America if the opportunity arises,” Mr Musk posted on X on Thursday morning. “No pay, no title, no recognition is needed.”

Asked by the BBC if Trump and Mr Musk had formally agreed on a role on such a commission, campaign senior advisor Brian Hughes said that "It is premature to discuss any prospective personnel in the next administration, but we welcome the enthusiasm and support of Elon Musk.”

Given what has happened to Twitter since Musk took over, I don't like the sound of this.
 

DerekC

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Musk would presumably back total deregulation of everything, sale of government assets to the highest bidder and abolition of the US Constitution to make the whole thing totally oligarch friendly.
 

brad465

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Anyone want to take a punt on how the debate will go? I think it will probably be neck and neck, give or take a few points: Harris hasn't been well tested so may struggle to perform well, but Trump now being the old candidate, combined with his bizarre ramblings at recent rallies, will probably offset any Harris shortcomings.
 

GusB

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Anyone want to take a punt on how the debate will go? I think it will probably be neck and neck, give or take a few points: Harris hasn't been well tested so may struggle to perform well, but Trump now being the old candidate, combined with his bizarre ramblings at recent rallies, will probably offset any Harris shortcomings.
I'm looking forward to the Orange One making a complete idiot of himself. This should be a slam-dunk for Harris, but there are no guarantees.

Interestingly, nobody seems to have mentioned that Dick Cheney has come out in support of Harris:
Former US Vice-President and lifelong Republican Dick Cheney has confirmed he will vote for the Democrats' Kamala Harris in November's presidential election.

Mr Cheney, seen as an influential figure during the presidency of George W Bush, issued a statement saying there had "never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump", the current Republican candidate.

His daughter, former Republican lawmaker Liz Cheney, had told an audience in Texas earlier that her father planned to back the Democratic nominee.
 

fgwrich

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All eyes on the debate in a couple of days!
Well that was interesting, lock up your cats and dogs if you live in Springfield Ohio, as immigrants are apparently eating peoples cats and dogs.

No, I’m not making that up. The orange one is :lol:
 

jon0844

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Well that was interesting, lock up your cats and dogs if you live in Springfield Ohio, as immigrants are apparently eating peoples cats and dogs.

No, I’m not making that up. The orange one is :lol:

All based on a dodgy Facebook post. The police have already stated no reported cases, but still the right went with it - but I thought most had worked out it was all a joke, but not Donald who turned cats and ducks into dogs (not once were dogs mentioned as being eaten).

The most bizarre thing is that later came some supposed witness who saw cats hanging up and being carved up, yet despite living in an era where everyone has a high-definition camera in their pocket, the supposed witness didn't think something so outrageous was worthy of taking a picture of?

On the upside, this bizarre story has probably cost Trump the election on top of the many other situations where he lost it. Even Fox concluded it didn't go so well for Trump, rather than just coming out and saying he nailed it.
 

Cloud Strife

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Anyone want to take a punt on how the debate will go? I think it will probably be neck and neck, give or take a few points: Harris hasn't been well tested so may struggle to perform well, but Trump now being the old candidate, combined with his bizarre ramblings at recent rallies, will probably offset any Harris shortcomings.

I expected the same, so it's a quite a surprise that Trump couldn't stop himself from taking the bait on so many occasions. He walked straight into the traps set by Harris, and the very quick call for a second debate by the Democrats suggest that they know he's on the ropes. He couldn't control himself, and it's very obvious that this general tactic of laughing at the Trump campaign and hitting him personally clearly threw him off. The "people leave your rallies early out of boredom" was a great line, and Trump really failed to hit Harris where she was weak.
 

nlogax

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Between Trump's poor debate performance and the subsequent Taylor Swift endorsement of Harris / Walz things are definitely taking a turn against the Orange One. Harris' team has requested a second debate in October which is absolutely a sign of confidence. Give Trump an unmuted mic and give him the tiniest bit of stick about something he's sensitive about and Harris just needs to sit back and watch him mess up with no external help at all.

Plenty of time to go though. Debates don't really change much and this is going to be an incredibly close election.
 

Gloster

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I read recently that the Democrats are adopting a policy of deliberately riling Trump. As long as he keeps to talking about crime, immigration and the economy he is likely to persuade a number of voters to support him, but if the Democrats poke him with a stick he goes off into rambling and chaotic rants that that can only be to their advantage. Not a particularly edifying policy, but when you are are dealing with someone who makes up his own rules, probably a necessary one.
 

gg1

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I read recently that the Democrats are adopting a policy of deliberately riling Trump. As long as he keeps to talking about crime, immigration and the economy he is likely to persuade a number of voters to support him, but if the Democrats poke him with a stick he goes off into rambling and chaotic rants that that can only be to their advantage. Not a particularly edifying policy, but when you are are dealing with someone who makes up his own rules, probably a necessary one.
The only real surprise is it's taken the Democrats 8 years to figure that out. It's impossible to have anything vaguely resembling an intelligent debate with someone like Trump so an alternate strategy is required.
 

Cowley

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I don’t think that could have gone better for the Dems last night. He stepped into so many traps that were laid for him and even on the things that he’s supposed to be strong on like immigration, he was just led off topic by a quick tweak of his ego.

It’s probably still going to be tight but that was at least a good a step forward for the Harris campaign.
 

DarloRich

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Did Trump really witter on about peopel eating cats and dogs? You just cant be sure with all the deep fake stuff going around. The problem with Trump is the deep fake stuff is identical to the real world!

I also saw he wasn't happy when fact checked about after birth abortions (!) or some such.
 

ainsworth74

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Did Trump really witter on about peopel eating cats and dogs? You just cant be sure with all the deep fake stuff going around. The problem with Trump is the deep fake stuff is identical to the real world!
Yes, despite it having been denied by the relevant police department he ranted about it in the debate and the right wing MAGA verse in general appear to now be entirely convinced that gangs of immigrants are roaming the country killing and eating cats and dogs.
 

DarloRich

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Yes, despite it having been denied by the relevant police department he ranted about it in the debate and the right wing MAGA verse in general appear to now be entirely convinced that gangs of immigrants are roaming the country killing and eating cats and dogs.
why do media discussion about his obvious mental frailties - Biden was dumped for much less!
 

wilbers

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on one of his rambles he even talked about abortion after 9 months. That and the thing about eating cats and dogs seemed the two maddest things.

Kamala Harris did have a bit near the end of the debate about the generational difference - essentially saying [without explicitly saying it] there is a rambling old man over there, and there is me; who do you think should be President? Its certainly how it felt anyway.
 

Strathclyder

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Kamala Harris did have a bit near the end of the debate about the generational difference - essentially saying [without explicitly saying it] there is a rambling old man over there, and there is me; who do you think should be President? Its certainly how it felt anyway.
Definitely got that vibe. He has consistently demonstrated this himself since the moment Biden dropped out of the race. No need to do anything beyond just poking him with the right stick and then watch him mentally and verbally wander off into all those traps set out for him.
 

edwin_m

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Interestingly, nobody seems to have mentioned that Dick Cheney has come out in support of Harris:
I can't help thinking getting the support of Dick Cheney is the political equivalent of going hunting with Dick Cheney.
Well that was interesting, lock up your cats and dogs if you live in Springfield Ohio, as immigrants are apparently eating peoples cats and dogs.

No, I’m not making that up. The orange one is :lol:
He must be very upset about this. If all the cats get eaten then he can't make fun of childless cat ladies.
I read recently that the Democrats are adopting a policy of deliberately riling Trump. As long as he keeps to talking about crime, immigration and the economy he is likely to persuade a number of voters to support him, but if the Democrats poke him with a stick he goes off into rambling and chaotic rants that that can only be to their advantage. Not a particularly edifying policy, but when you are are dealing with someone who makes up his own rules, probably a necessary one.
It's basically what Trump has been doing to everyone else for all these years. Bully can't cope with people standing up to him.
 

Tetchytyke

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The only real surprise is it's taken the Democrats 8 years to figure that out. It's impossible to have anything vaguely resembling an intelligent debate with someone like Trump so an alternate strategy is required.
They played nice for too long. "They go low, we go high". I'm glad that Kamala Harris knows this doesn't work and so the Dems are going low too.

The "weird" thing really seems to have stuck and the "weird" thing really seems to have riled the MAGA lot. It's great to see the Dems finally go low and get under their skin.

Whether it works, who knows. The idea that anyone is still genuinely undecided between MAGA and the Democrats seems insane to me, but there we are. A lot of the noise seems to be coming from the anti-Israeli factions on the left and I honestly can't comprehend how they think voting for Trump will help resolve the Gaza conflict in favour of the Palestinians.
 

brad465

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I'm not going to link the post, but Elon Musk said in response to Swift endorsing Harris "I will give you a child and guard your cats with my life." It's gone down very badly as it can be seen as a rape threat.
 
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