East West Rail : what could the fares look like?

[Joey Beauchamp]

Feel free to split this off into a separate thread but I was wondering about fares on the first phase of East West rail.

I often travel from Long Buckby to Oxford via Coventry, which I imagine may still be slightly quicker than travelling via Bletchley due to the LNWR services dwell time at Northampton.

However, the big negative is I can't use my Network Card apart from the Banbury to Oxford section. Has it been confirmed that Bletchley to Bicester will be included in the Network Card area? It has to be surely as it would be a very strange anomaly if not! Taking a railcard discount off the current off peak return from Long Buckby to Oxford would still be more expensive than a flexible split ticket via Coventry but I'm hoping there will be a cheaper "via Winslow" route as well as the likelihood of split tickets via MK.

When will fares start to appear and what would be the best way to find them when they do?

 

[CyrusWuff]

When will fares start to appear and what would be the best way to find them when they do?

Given public services aren't expected to start until some time next year, I'd assume they'll appear in the "January" (though probably postponed until March again) fares round.

Based on the past few years, if that's the case they shouldn't appear in journey planners until the day they come into effect.

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

Feel free to split this off into a separate thread but I was wondering about fares on the first phase of East West rail.

I often travel from Long Buckby to Oxford via Coventry, which I imagine may still be slightly quicker than travelling via Bletchley due to the LNWR services dwell time at Northampton.

However, the big negative is I can't use my Network Card apart from the Banbury to Oxford section. Has it been confirmed that Bletchley to Bicester will be included in the Network Card area? It has to be surely as it would be a very strange anomaly if not! Taking a railcard discount off the current off peak return from Long Buckby to Oxford would still be more expensive than a flexible split ticket via Coventry but I'm hoping there will be a cheaper "via Winslow" route as well as the likelihood of split tickets via MK.

When will fares start to appear and what would be the best way to find them when they do?

I believe that LBK-OXF will be about 10 miles shorter via Bletchley than via COV so the fares should be comparable, or maybe cheaper?.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I often travel from Long Buckby to Oxford via Coventry, which I imagine may still be slightly quicker than travelling via Bletchley due to the LNWR services dwell time at Northampton.

The best way to look at this is to first of all compare what an ordinary open return costs for the journey from Long Bucky to Oxford via Coventry alongside known elements of the current journeys.

So, as far as I can see an "Anytime Return" from Long Buckby to Oxford is an eye watering £113.20 for the 1h21m (69 minutes actually on the train) journey via Coventry.

At present an Anytime Return journey from Long Buckby to Bletchley is £24.10. An Anytime return from Bicester Village to Oxford is £6.90. It's 31km from Bicester Village to Bletchley, 18km from Bicester Village to Oxford, so shall we guess at £18.75 for an Anytime Return between Oxford and Milton Keynes?

So all things being equal an Anytime Return would be £42.85 and a Day return £28.50. Obviously the railway operates to it's own rules, so I'm sure my estimate will be wrong.

As for timing. We know that the timings for the training runs are already loaded, with the normal time being 34 minutes from BLU to OXF. The training timetable suggests a 12 minute connection at MKC or BLU. So I'd guess 77 minutes on the train with a 12 minute connection making a 1h29m journey time.

Question is, would you be willing to pay £70 more for the walk up Anytime fare to save yourself 8 minutes on the train?

 

[Watershed]

At present an Anytime Return journey from Long Buckby to Bletchley is £24.10. An Anytime return from Bicester Village to Oxford is £6.90. It's 31km from Bicester Village to Bletchley, 18km from Bicester Village to Oxford, so shall we guess at £18.75 for an Anytime Return between Oxford and Milton Keynes?

I cannot for one moment imagine the fare will be that low. The Bicester Village-Oxford fares are much cheaper than usual for that part of the world because of the service historically being limited. For example, heading out of Oxford in other directions, £6.90 will only get you an Anytime Return as far as Radley (8km) or Combe (13km but also a limited service).

I would expect the fares to be more in line with current WCML, GWML and Chiltern line pricing, so perhaps ~£24 as per the Oxford to Twyford fare (which is a comparable distance on the GWML). However Bletchley to Watford Junction (a comparable distance on the WCML) is £35 and Bicester to Beaconsfield (Chiltern equivalent) is £28, so it could be as high as either of those.

 

[swt_passenger]

Call me cynical, but the opening of the route will probably come as a complete surprise to various fares managers, and on day one there’ll be no suitable new fares in the system...

 

[BlueLeanie]

I cannot for one moment imagine the fare will be that low. The Bicester Village-Oxford fares are much cheaper than usual for that part of the world because of the service historically being limited. For example, heading out of Oxford in other directions, £6.90 will only get you an Anytime Return as far as Radley (8km) or Combe (13km but also a limited service).

I would expect the fares to be more in line with current WCML, GWML and Chiltern line pricing, so perhaps ~£24 as per the Oxford to Twyford fare (which is a comparable distance on the GWML). However Bletchley to Watford Junction (a comparable distance on the WCML) is £35 and Bicester to Beaconsfield (Chiltern equivalent) is £28, so it could be as high as either of those.

BR Fares are complicated. It's about 45km from Long Buckby to Bletchley and the Anytime Fare is just £24. The Bicester fare is probably set to be competitive with the intensive bus service.

Call me cynical, but the opening of the route will probably come as a complete surprise to various fares managers, and on day one there’ll be no suitable new fares in the system...

I am quite fascinated to see what happens with fares when the line opens between Bletchley and Bicester, it's opening up a whole new series of passenger pathways in the UK Network. It's near enough guaranteed to deliver a massive source of useful fare anomalies. Can we expect to see "valid via Winslow" on tickets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I cannot for one moment imagine the fare will be that low. The Bicester Village-Oxford fares are much cheaper than usual for that part of the world because of the service historically being limited. For example, heading out of Oxford in other directions, £6.90 will only get you an Anytime Return as far as Radley (8km) or Combe (13km but also a limited service).

I would expect the fares to be more in line with current WCML, GWML and Chiltern line pricing, so perhaps ~£24 as per the Oxford to Twyford fare (which is a comparable distance on the GWML). However Bletchley to Watford Junction (a comparable distance on the WCML) is £35 and Bicester to Beaconsfield (Chiltern equivalent) is £28, so it could be as high as either of those.

Since Oval the south WCML has quite high Anytimes but very low Off Peaks - I would be surprised if the differential was as high on a route that's not involving London commuting.

My guess would be (on the assumption it'll be set up ready for Oval on day one) Bletchley-Oxford Anytime Day Return about £30-35 and Off Peak about £20-25 with singles at half the returns if they are going to pre-Oval it.

 

[A S Leib]

Based on the fact that even South Hampstead has 'via West Hampstead' and 'via Bletchley' fares to Bedford, would it be a safe assumption that 'via Winslow' would be an option for all WCML stations south of Milton Keynes (except Euston)?

It would be interesting to see if that extends to e.g. Harrow & Willesden – Didcot, Swindon or Reading 'not via London' as well. Watford Junction – Reading already has 'not via London' fares, whilst Watford Junction – Wokingham ones, apart from 'any permitted', specify 'via Kensington Olympia', so I doubt southern WCML – South Downs via Winslow would be allowed.

 

[Watershed]

The Bicester fare is probably set to be competitive with the intensive bus service.

Rail fares are, in general, quite a bit more expensive than bus fares - even more so now with the £2 bus cap. I don't think the railway really tries to compete on price with buses.

 

[A S Leib]

Rail fares are, in general, quite a bit more expensive than bus fares - even more so now with the £2 bus cap. I don't think the railway really tries to compete on price with buses.

Including on Aylesbury – Oxford, which is essentially the same time by train or bus if travelling to Oxford city centre, but with 4 buses per hour vs an hourly train service between Aylesbury and Princes Risborough.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

Thanks for the replies - really interesting, I hadn't thought about all the possible routes it will open up - Long Buckby to Oxford is one of the simpler ones!

On buses versus trains: I will always get a train if possible, even if it's further to walk and more expensive. My wife goes with whatever involves less walking, which is usually the bus, even if the journey takes longer and it means she has to get up earlier.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Based on the fact that even South Hampstead has 'via West Hampstead' and 'via Bletchley' fares to Bedford, would it be a safe assumption that 'via Winslow' would be an option for all WCML stations south of Milton Keynes (except Euston)?

My guess would be that routes are likely to be via Bletchley (WMT), via High Wycombe (Chiltern) and via Oxford (GWR), with no "Any Permitted."

Could be completely wrong though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My guess would be that routes are likely to be via Bletchley (WMT), via High Wycombe (Chiltern) and via Oxford (GWR), with no "Any Permitted."

Could be completely wrong though.

Of course there is a de facto Any Permitted - whichever is the most expensive. You might as well call it that rather than creating faff with zero fare excesses.

 

[Watershed]

Of course there is a de facto Any Permitted - whichever is the most expensive. You might as well call it that rather than creating faff with zero fare excesses.

No need to obtain a zero fare excess to travel in accordance with a cheaper route of fare - the Routeing Guide Instructions refer:

Where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fare routes data that will affect the routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route
description. The National Routeing Guide may be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Including on Aylesbury – Oxford, which is essentially the same time by train or bus if travelling to Oxford city centre, but with 4 buses per hour vs an hourly train service between Aylesbury and Princes Risborough.

Isn't the hybrid route the best way if you time it right?

X20 to Haddenham, then Chiltern to Oxford or vice versa?

 

[A S Leib]

Isn't the hybrid route the best way if you time it right?

X20 to Haddenham, then Chiltern to Oxford or vice versa?

Leaving Aylesbury bus station at 09:55 gets you to Oxford High Street at 11:09 staying on the bus or Oxford station at 11:00 changing at H&TP, and that's if the bus isn't delayed by more than eight minutes more than the train (although Aylesbury – Oxford's been fairly reliable when I've used it). Changing at Haddenham's probably better if getting an onward train connection from Oxford and if you don't mind the extra £8 or so; direct if not.

 

[The Planner]

Leaving Aylesbury bus station at 09:55 gets you to Oxford High Street at 11:09 staying on the bus or Oxford station at 11:00 changing at H&TP, and that's if the bus isn't delayed by more than eight minutes more than the train (although Aylesbury – Oxford's been fairly reliable when I've used it). Changing at Haddenham's probably better if getting an onward train connection from Oxford and if you don't mind the extra £8 or so; direct if not.

People forget the schlep up to the city centre though. Its a good 15 minutes to say Carfax from the station.