Name Calling & Fraud Allegation on GTR

[daisynova]

Hi all,

First post as I had a horrific day with Govia Thameslink yesterday and looking for advice.

At 08:33 I purchased an e ticket from Blackfriars to Farringdon. I walked into the station and a guard waved me through. I didn't scan my ticket. Arrived at Farringdon and the guard waved me out the gate but then came after me, put his hands on me and made me go back into the station. There was no "please" and no niceties at all, or explanation of what was going on. He then handed me over to a woman who said she was "giving me a chance to tell the truth" and asked where I got on the train. I said Blackfriars and she said I was lying. She said I'm giving you a chance again and again I gave the same response. She said I was a liar and there was no way a guard waved me through (he did!). Anyway she said she was giving me one last chance before calling the fraud team, I repeated I got on at Blackfriars.

She then shouted over someone called "Uncle Kevin" who was not in uniform and asked to see my ticket. I had closed my phone down and so said I would get it out again for him. The woman then started shouting at me that I had to show him the ticket I showed her. I explained that was what I was doing but had to go back into the ticket and she snorted at me. He then scanned my eticket with his phone and said I was a liar. He said where did you start your journey and I repeated (again) Blackfriars and he said well where do you live. I said that was none of his business and then the woman said "so you don't live in Blackfriars". I was not shouting or angry at this point despite others around me kicking off at the enforcement officers (BTW she didn't identify herself as such). I explained i had stayed with a friend the night before but that I didn't think that was any of her business about what I do outside of train travel. She then asked how I got onto the train at Blackfriars and I said I walked but she then said how did I get into the station, I repeated I had been waved in by the guard. She said that wouldn't happen (it happened yesterday on my way home so it does) and that they will check CCTV to find me on there to see if I am telling the truth.

Uncle Kevin then asked when I had bought my ticket and I said I'll check my receipt and confirmed it said 08:33. He called me a liar again. I confirmed that I had the receipt from Southern in my emails and showed him it was at 08:33. He said his system said I bought it at 07:33 but I said that couldn't be the case as I was still in bed then! I showed him the receipt from Southern (again) and again he called me a liar. In the meantime the woman was filling in something on an ipad and both her and Uncle Kevin took a photo of my ticket. I was issued with a long piece of paper that says I have been cautioned (I wasn't) and then they let me go.

I am furious at the way I was treated and the way they kept calling me a liar. It was appalling behaviour and I will complain. I am happy to wait to see what happens too but will they really take me to court and will they really spend an hour of CCTV searching for me on there? Will they even be able to find me in amongst hundreds of other commuters? Would the court accept my tickets as evidence i had a ticket and just cancel all of this? I am quite stressed by this situation as my job and title depends on my integrity and they are calling that into question by saying I committed fraud.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

Oh and forgot, she kept saying she was doing an MG. When I asked what that was she said Magistrates Guidance - what does that mean?

 

[OscarH]

Uncle Kevin then asked when I had bought my ticket and I said I'll check my receipt and confirmed it said 08:33. He called me a liar again. I confirmed that I had the receipt from Southern in my emails and showed him it was at 08:33. He said his system said I bought it at 07:33 but I said that couldn't be the case as I was still in bed then! I showed him the receipt from Southern (again) and again he called me a liar.

Other people are better placed to comment on the rest of your post, but this is so unbelievably obviously a DST timezone issue, which has occurred many times with so many different retailers in the barcode encoding. Not even considering that as an option is unacceptable.

 

[AlterEgo]

Buying a ticket from Blackfriars to Farringdon is a red flag for revenue inspectors and it isn't surprising that the inspector didn't let you exit with that ticket. Almost nobody buys a paper or e-ticket for that journey because it is cheaper on contactless/Oyster. Nearly all tickets in London are. (In your case, £3.90 vs £2.80) Those methods of travel require you to touch in and out so your origin and destination cannot be questioned. People who buy e-tickets are not only spending more than they should on those journeys, but it is possible for them to board much further down the line at an unbarriered station in Kent and simply use the "short ticket" to exit. This is one of the most common ticket scams. It would seem unlikely, but not impossible, to an inspector that someone with an e-ticket would not have scanned it at a station like Blackfriars.

They may check CCTV but I am not sure whether they will do this for a single case. It would be very easy to spot you being waved past by a gateline assistant; goven the frequency of trains at Blackfriars they'd only need to check a few minutes of footage. Did they turn their body cam on? Would you be able to get a witness statement from the person you stayed with near Blackfriars, and encourage them to come to court in the event it became necessary? What evidence do you have of beginning your journey at Blackfriars? When the company audits your ticket purchasing history, will they find a number of these tickets, or any refunds without explanation? These are all things to consider when it comes to the strength of your case. Ultimately, it is up to the train company to prove the offence, and not for you to prove your innocence.

To answer your question directly, an MG11 is a witness statement filled out by staff which forms part of the report they will send to their legal/prosecution team, which will form part of the basis for deciding whether to take any further action. It should be noted that refusing to give your address to the inspector is a separate offence - did you eventually do so?

 

[daisynova]

Buying a ticket from Blackfriars to Farringdon is a red flag for revenue inspectors and it isn't surprising that the inspector didn't let you exit with that ticket. Almost nobody buys a paper or e-ticket for that journey because it is cheaper on contactless/Oyster. Nearly all tickets in London are. (In your case, £3.90 vs £2.80) Those methods of travel require you to touch in and out so your origin and destination cannot be questioned. People who buy e-tickets are not only spending more than they should on those journeys, but it is possible for them to board much further down the line at an unbarriered station in Kent and simply use the "short ticket" to exit. This is one of the most common ticket scams. It would seem unlikely, but not impossible, to an inspector that someone with an e-ticket would not have scanned it at a station like Blackfriars.

They may check CCTV but I am not sure whether they will do this for a single case. It would be very easy to spot you being waved past by a gateline assistant; goven the frequency of trains at Blackfriars they'd only need to check a few minutes of footage. Did they turn their body cam on? Would you be able to get a witness statement from the person you stayed with near Blackfriars, and encourage them to come to court in the event it became necessary? What evidence do you have of beginning your journey at Blackfriars? When the company audits your ticket purchasing history, will they find a number of these tickets, or any refunds without explanation? These are all things to consider when it comes to the strength of your case. Ultimately, it is up to the train company to prove the offence, and not for you to prove your innocence.

To answer your question directly, an MG11 is a witness statement filled out by staff which forms part of the report they will send to their legal/prosecution team, which will form part of the basis for deciding whether to take any further action. It should be noted that refusing to give your address to the inspector is a separate offence - did you eventually do so?

Thanks - I had a split ticket as I have a season ticket to London terminals (which includes Blackfriars). I didn't even think to tap in or that it would be cheaper (which is blinking cheeky too!). I just bought a ticket online as that is what I normally do - I have always done this and never been stopped.

I didn't notice any bodycam and was not informed of any bodycam. Should they not tell you that they are recording the conversation? I have nothing to hide here but I though, outside of a violent altercation, they should tell you about being recorded?

Yes, I can get a statement from my friend and I have several tickets from Blackfriars to Farringdon over the year that I have purchased so they can check them. I also did provide my address in the end as they needed it but them questioning about why I didn't stay at home was intrusive and unnecessary.

 

[Adam Williams]

Almost nobody buys a paper or e-ticket for that journey because it is cheaper on contactless/Oyster

It's not necessarily always cheaper to use contactless/Oyster for these journeys, and staff would do well to remember that. The lack of critical thinking with respect to the time being an hour out (particularly when the customer had a booking confirmation with a timestamp on it) is also really poor to see.

 

[jacksonbang]

Why not show your season ticket? That would have surely ended the conversation. As soon as you point out the season to London Terminals this extension ticket makes much more sense. Even though you have no need to prove your innocence.

 

[Haywain]

Almost nobody buys a paper or e-ticket for that journey because it is cheaper on contactless/Oyster.

And, let's be honest, it's only 15 minutes between the two on foot! That's another factor that makes buying that ticket difficult to believe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

I had a split ticket as I have a season ticket to London terminals (which includes Blackfriars).

London Terminals also includes City Thameslink.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

Don’t be surprised if they then ask for your friends address, as this was passed over to the fraud guy then they’d likely pursue a criminal prosecution and saying you stayed at a friends, obviously they will need to get proof if this is true. As much as it’s on them to prove their suspicions it’s also on you to prove your innocence. Unfortunately the railway is certainly not a case of innocent until proven guilty as seen many times before. And yes they definitely will check cctv if you never admitted to anything. Only need to watch a few minutes of footage as they can check what time they stopped you and quite easily work out what train you’d have got and and would have also taken down a description of you and what you was wearing. If they cannot see you they can also get the footage from the train you got off and see where and when you boarded.

 

[30907]

Why not show your season ticket? That would have surely ended the conversation. As soon as you point out the season to London Terminals this extension ticket makes much more sense. Even though you have no need to prove your innocence.

In this case, though, the OP claims to have been waved through the barriers at BFR, not to have reached there by train, so the season was not relevant.

BTW, @daisynova, which set of barriers did you use - South or North of the river?

A separate issue is that you were touched by a (different) "guard" - I would hold fire on that for now, but you may have reason to complain.

 

[Edsmith]

This really is appalling behaviour, if I'm understanding this correctly you've done nothing wrong? Shop security staff would lose their job for behaviour like this. If a ticket from Blackfriars to Farringdon arises suspicion that's their problem. If one of them put hands on you that is potentially assault.

 

[daisynova]

Why not show your season ticket? That would have surely ended the conversation. As soon as you point out the season to London Terminals this extension ticket makes much more sense. Even though you have no need to prove your innocence.

I didn’t start with my season ticket for that journey. I explained I had the season ticket but their attitude was that I had not scanned my ticket therefore it wasn’t valid. But I had a valid ticket but just didn’t scan in with it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

And, let's be honest, it's only 15 minutes between the two on foot! That's another factor that makes buying that ticket difficult to believe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==


London Terminals also includes City Thameslink.

I didn’t walk it as I was going to work and rather not turn up a sweaty mess! Not everyone wants to or can walk that distance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

Don’t be surprised if they then ask for your friends address, as this was passed over to the fraud guy then they’d likely pursue a criminal prosecution and saying you stayed at a friends, obviously they will need to get proof if this is true. As much as it’s on them to prove their suspicions it’s also on you to prove your innocence. Unfortunately the railway is certainly not a case of innocent until proven guilty as seen many times before. And yes they definitely will check cctv if you never admitted to anything. Only need to watch a few minutes of footage as they can check what time they stopped you and quite easily work out what train you’d have got and and would have also taken down a description of you and what you was wearing. If they cannot see you they can also get the footage from the train you got off and see where and when you boarded.

So they didn’t write anything down other than my address and photographed my ticket on my phone. Also I’m not giving my friends address for them to satisfy their nosiness - the whole thing is I got on at Blackfriars which they can see on CCTV. Either way I had a valid ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

In this case, though, the OP claims to have been waved through the barriers at BFR, not to have reached there by train, so the season was not relevant.

BTW, @daisynova, which set of barriers did you use - South or North of the river?

A separate issue is that you were touched by a (different) "guard" - I would hold fire on that for now, but you may have reason to complain.

Right I’m crap at directions so I’m not sure if I was north or south - how do I tell the difference. Is St Paul’s north? If so, I got on south.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

This really is appalling behaviour, if I'm understanding this correctly you've done nothing wrong? Shop security staff would lose their job for behaviour like this. If a ticket from Blackfriars to Farringdon arises suspicion that's their problem. If one of them put hands on you that is potentially assault.

Thanks - I didn’t think I did anything wrong other than not scanning my ticket. But I’m now quite worried about the threats of court and cautions. I don’t want to have to fight and will end up just paying any fine. I’ll try but I really don’t want to fight. I just wish they didn’t take the liar stance and listened to what I was saying.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Can you tell us the exact journey you made. We've had Blackfriars to Farringdon, then talk of a season ticket to London Terminals (which is actually valid to City Thameslink) a mere 400 yards from Farringdon.

On face value the behaviour of the staff is unacceptable and should be the subject of a separate complaint, but for now I think it is best that we concentrate on giving advice about the alleged ticketing irregularity.

 

[daisynova]

Welcome to the forum!

Can you tell us the exact journey you made. We've had Blackfriars to Farringdon, then talk of a season ticket to London Terminals (which is actually valid to City Thameslink) a mere 400 yards from Farringdon.

On face value the behaviour of the staff is unacceptable and should be the subject of a separate complaint, but for now I think it is best that we concentrate on giving advice about the alleged ticketing irregularity.

On Wednesday I travelled from Kent to Blackfriars using my season ticket. I know it goes to City Thameslink but I don’t know London well so I always get the train from London Bridge to Farringdon.

Yesterday I travelled from Blackfriars to Farringdon. Then later in the day travelled from Farringdon to Kent.

 

[Hadders]

On Wednesday I travelled from Kent to Blackfriars using my season ticket.

That's absolutely fine.

I know it goes to City Thameslink but I don’t know London well so I always get the train from London Bridge to Farringdon

Yesterday I travelled from Blackfriars to Farringdon. Then later in the day travelled from Farringdon to Kent.

There's nothing wrong getting the train from London Bridge to Farringdon, it's further than you'd normally want to walk, although Farringdon station is very close to City Thameslink.

Almost always it will be cheaper to use contactless rather than a traditional ticket to travel from London Bridge to Farringdon.

A further complication is that fare evasion on the railway is rife, we see countless examples on here where people purchase short distance tickets to get through the barriers at either end of their journey but leave a gaping gap in the middle without a ticket. This is known as doughnutting.

I'm not saying that you're involved in doughnutting, but people using short distance tickets, particularly where almost everyone making that short distance journey uses contactless is going to raise suspicions. That you ticket was not scanned upon entry to Blackfriars adds further suspicion.

Again for clarity, I'm not saying you've done anything wrong; and I'm not defending the actions of the staff. I'm simply stating why your ticket would arouse suspicions. Although there was no requirement to do so, it would have been helpful if you had shown your season ticket as this would have added legitimacy to the short distance ticket you were using.

If you were stopped at Farringdon it's highly likely that you were dealt with by staff working for Govia Thameslink Railway. Do you know which company they worked for?

As for what's likely to happen next you're likely to get a letter from GTR saying that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you but asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. It is important that a simple straightforward reply is sent setting out exactly what happened. Forum members will help you to get this wording right to give you the best chance of success. When letter arrives post a copy of it in this thread (with any personal details and case reference numbers redacted) along with your draft reply and we'll go from there.

Can you make sure you keep hold of:

- Your season ticket
- The ticket your purchased on the day
- The email confirmation for the ticket you purchased
- Any documentation you were given on the day when you were stopped

These are important as they will potentially be needed to help defend your position, and without them this will be much harder.

 

[Falcon1200]

In this case, though, the OP claims to have been waved through the barriers at BFR, not to have reached there by train, so the season was not relevant.

This would indicate that the barriers at Blackfriars, although staffed, were left open; Is this normally the case there?

 

[Haywain]

This would indicate that the barriers at Blackfriars, although staffed, were left open; Is this normally the case there?

That does sometimes happen on the south side.

 

[Vexed]

As this is still recent, you might want to consider submitting a Subject Access Request for a copy of the CCTV. Relying on GTR's prosecution department to look at it is unwise as the footage would probably be overwritten by the time they process your case, or they might not even look.

 

[Falcon1200]

That does sometimes happen on the south side.

Fair enough, and of course barriers are frequently left open, up and down the country.... but that's usually because there is no-one to staff them!

 

[Surreytraveller]

If it was Farringdon, is it not more likely it was London Underground staff than GTR?

 

[Haywain]

If it was Farringdon, is it not more likely it was London Underground staff than GTR?

That would depend which exit was used.

 

[daisynova]

That's absolutely fine.




There's nothing wrong getting the train from London Bridge to Farringdon, it's further than you'd normally want to walk, although Farringdon station is very close to City Thameslink.

Almost always it will be cheaper to use contactless rather than a traditional ticket to travel from London Bridge to Farringdon.

A further complication is that fare evasion on the railway is rife, we see countless examples on here where people purchase short distance tickets to get through the barriers at either end of their journey but leave a gaping gap in the middle without a ticket. This is known as doughnutting.

I'm not saying that you're involved in doughnutting, but people using short distance tickets, particularly where almost everyone making that short distance journey uses contactless is going to raise suspicions. That you ticket was not scanned upon entry to Blackfriars adds further suspicion.

Again for clarity, I'm not saying you've done anything wrong; and I'm not defending the actions of the staff. I'm simply stating why your ticket would arouse suspicions. Although there was no requirement to do so, it would have been helpful if you had shown your season ticket as this would have added legitimacy to the short distance ticket you were using.

If you were stopped at Farringdon it's highly likely that you were dealt with by staff working for Govia Thameslink Railway. Do you know which company they worked for?

As for what's likely to happen next you're likely to get a letter from GTR saying that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you but asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. It is important that a simple straightforward reply is sent setting out exactly what happened. Forum members will help you to get this wording right to give you the best chance of success. When letter arrives post a copy of it in this thread (with any personal details and case reference numbers redacted) along with your draft reply and we'll go from there.

Can you make sure you keep hold of:

- Your season ticket
- The ticket your purchased on the day
- The email confirmation for the ticket you purchased
- Any documentation you were given on the day when you were stopped

These are important as they will potentially be needed to help defend your position, and without them this will be much harder.

Thank you for the advice. I’ll keep everything and I’ve got this thread to remember what happened on the day too. I’m actually shocked the transport companies are allowed to charge differently for the same journey depending on the type of ticket you buy. My company will often cover tickets and it’s always a paper ticket they give us so they are in some cases paying much more than what folks pay for tapping in and out. Crazy!

Hopefully the CCTV shows me being waved through and this all goes away. Any idea on how long it takes for the initial correspondence to come through? It’s making me feel sick thinking about it - I can’t stand being called a liar and want to prove I wasn’t lying.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

That would depend which exit was used.

It was GTR

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Fair enough, and of course barriers are frequently left open, up and down the country.... but that's usually because there is no-one to staff them!

It was staffed but busy with commuters as trains were being cancelled. Usually with an eticket you show it, they scan it with a wee probe thingy and let you through. They let me through with no problem and at Farringdon they initially let me through then called me back. I should’ve just kept walking!

 

[Haywain]

Hopefully the CCTV shows me being waved through

It's the CCTV from Blackfriars you need for this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Usually with an eticket you show it, they scan it with a wee probe thingy and let you through.

You should be scanning your eTicket on the barrier at Blackfriars. The scanners are there and they do work. Had you done that there would be no question to answer about where you boarded. Or, as has been said before, use contactless payment for that short journey.

 

[John R]

. I’m actually shocked the transport companies are allowed to charge differently for the same journey depending on the type of ticket you buy.

Differential pricing by tapping (via Oyster initially, as contactless bank cards didn’t exist then IIRC) was in place as far back as 2006, so it’s hardly a new feature.

 

[Hadders]

It's the CCTV from Blackfriars you need for this.

Agreed. You should submit a subject access request to GTR for the CCTV showing you entering Blackfriars Station.

You should submit this without delay.

 

[some bloke]

Arrived at Farringdon and the guard waved me out the gate but then came after me, put his hands on me and made me go back into the station.

The woman then started shouting at me that I had to show him the ticket I showed her.

Perhaps it's worth requesting CCTV from Farringdon as well, and any bodyworn camera recordings "if they exist", in case they show behaviour you complain about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

I don't know how requests, or uses of the material by the requester, are supposed to be dealt with where you ask for video of yourself and it shows behaviour by others who have identifiable work roles.

An alternative for some purposes might be to ask that recordings be preserved.

 

[Falcon1200]

It was staffed but busy with commuters as trains were being cancelled. Usually with an eticket you show it, they scan it with a wee probe thingy and let you through. They let me through with no problem and at Farringdon they initially let me through then called me back. I should’ve just kept walking!

You should! Your treatment was way out of order but as mentioned above, CCTV footage from Blackfriars will clear your name, and hopefully lead to an apology and some form of redress.

 

[fandroid]

Surely the whole notion (in the minds of the inspectors) of an offence having been committed falls apart simply because the OP has a valid season ticket. The scams they are familiar with consist of getting on the Thameslink train somewhere much further out, either at a station with no barriers or with a short distance ticket (doughnutting).

The OP already had a ticket for any journey from their home to Blackfriars. So, they had valid tickets for whatever journey the inspectors believed they had taken.

If a letter turns up, I think that just providing evidence of both tickets, plus an account of the journeys taken since leaving home, should be enough to shut the case down.

 

[furlong]

Why not show your season ticket? That would have surely ended the conversation. As soon as you point out the season to London Terminals this extension ticket makes much more sense. Even though you have no need to prove your innocence.

Perhaps the conversation never progressed beyond an argument over where the journey began? The matter of a season ticket covering a journey that wasn't made doesn't arise.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps the conversation never progressed beyond an argument over where the journey began? The matter of a season ticket covering a journey that wasn't made doesn't arise.

I’m inclined to agree with this. As the OP told them they had entered the system at Blackfriars, it is imperative to prove that now, rather than anything which looks like changing the story.

 

[matt_world2004]

I would keep the season ticket even if it expires as that would be proof you had a season ticket. And explain that when they send a letter. Although they shouldn't be accusing people of fare evasion on the grounds they started their journey at blackfriars and ending at Farringdon, alone even if the journey is apparently illogical.