• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Manchester Piccadilly P13/14, could ETCS level 2 provide a large capacity increase?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Crithylum

Member
Joined
21 May 2024
Messages
353
Location
London Borough of Ealing
Would some sort of signalling upgrade allow a significant capacity increase to "fix" the bottleneck?

How expensive would it be, and would it be cost competitive with 4 tracking (for example)?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,371
If you were willing to pay for enough axle counters, ETCS Level 2 might be able to provide a measurable capacity increase.
You could use signal sections that are shorter than the trains and stack trains in the approaches.

Not sure it can solve the fundamental limitation of the Castlefield station complex though.
If you could get a little bit of width out of the viaduct structures you could perhaps try esoteric solutions like gauntlet track, which would buy you a handful of seconds from not having to move point machines and prove them.
ETCS would certainly be cheaper than attempting to get more tracks through there, although I don't think it would deliver that much.

(I am relatively bullish on the idea of four tracks on Castlefield, it would clearly be extremely expensive but it is possibly the most valuable railway segment in the North West of England).
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,755
Location
Nottingham
I don't think so. There are already mid-platform signals, and a train can arrive in the B end of the platform while the previous one is still in the far end. I don't think they like to do this, because if passengers think their train is about to depart from the other end, the resulting stampede will cause more delay than there would have been if they'd just kept the train outside the platform.

I'm not sure what the overlap is on the mid-platform signal, or whether better speed supervision under ETCS would allow it to be shorter. If so then slightly longer trains might be possible in the departure end of the platform, though the extra length would be on the very narrow part alongside the stairs.

The entire Northern fleet based west of the Pennines, plus the whole TPE fleet and all of EMR's DMUs, would pass through here sooner or later. None of these are likely to be ETCS fitted in the foreseeable future (probably not until and unless WCML north gets ETCS) so a small-scale ETCS for Castlefield Corridor would trigger a horrendous stock conversion cost.

So I'm afraid the previous suggestion of digital signalling to solve this problem was no more than a digit in the air.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,646
Location
Northampton
ETCS would give some capacity benefit, but the headway on Castleford is already pretty low (think 2 or 2.5 mins) so the benefits it could give you are limited, especially given the diversity of stock types.
 

fishwomp

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
1,354
Location
milton keynes
Would some sort of signalling upgrade allow a significant capacity increase to "fix" the bottleneck?

How expensive would it be, and would it be cost competitive with 4 tracking (for example)?
Capacity has the easiest fix on the planet: minimum unit lengths.

Between 8:30 and 9 this morning, 13 services at Oxford Road. 6 with 6 coaches, 5 with 4, and 2 with 3.

Some also have smaller end doors rather than the wider 1/3 + 2/3 doors. Longer dwell times - exacerbated when any train is delayed/cancelled, everyone rams into unsuitable amount of space, and needs peeling off when they get to the next stop..

People are unable to spread out along the platform - particularly those on the short distance catching any next train - as they don't know what length it will be.

It would not work on the London underground like that.. not sure why anyone thinks it could work In Manchester!
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,733
Its platform reoccupation that is the problem. You aren't going to squeeze any more trains into it really.
I'm not sure what the overlap is on the mid-platform signal, or whether better speed supervision under ETCS would allow it to be shorter. If so then slightly longer trains might be possible in the departure end of the platform, though the extra length would be on the very narrow part alongside the stairs.
Varies between 75-80m on each one. The gaps between the signals between Oxford Road and Picc are only 452 and 413m to the mid platform signal and its 194m from the mid platforms to the end. Deansgate to Oxford Road is effectively one signal section. Short of having ETCS block markers equivalent to the signals and effectively planning on single yellows, I can't see what the solution is.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,646
Location
Northampton
Its platform reoccupation that is the problem. You aren't going to squeeze any more trains into it really.

Varies between 75-80m on each one. The gaps between the signals between Oxford Road and Picc are only 452 and 413m to the mid platform signal and its 194m from the mid platforms to the end. Deansgate to Oxford Road is effectively one signal section. Short of having ETCS block markers equivalent to the signals and effectively planning on single yellows, I can't see what the solution is.
The only way to make any meaningful difference short of metroisation (i.e. unified Stock + ATO) would be to go to minimum block lengths (c.50m) but then you get to the problem of trains potentially being stuck half-in and half-out of a platform.
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
5,135
Location
Great Britain
I don't think so. There are already mid-platform signals, and a train can arrive in the B end of the platform while the previous one is still in the far end. I don't think they like to do this, because if passengers think their train is about to depart from the other end, the resulting stampede will cause more delay than there would have been if they'd just kept the train outside the platform.
I am sure the signals don't permit trains to enter the B platforms unless the train infront has passed the main platform starter signal (except in certain circumstances). The mid platforms just save a small bit of time because of overlaps.

Ideally, you need a new signal just before platform 13 and another just before 14. Same as East Croydon has. In my opinion, that would, solve one of the main issues on the corridor.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,163
Location
Wilmslow
I don't think so. There are already mid-platform signals, and a train can arrive in the B end of the platform while the previous one is still in the far end. I don't think they like to do this, because if passengers think their train is about to depart from the other end, the resulting stampede will cause more delay than there would have been if they'd just kept the train outside the platform.

I'm not sure what the overlap is on the mid-platform signal, or whether better speed supervision under ETCS would allow it to be shorter. If so then slightly longer trains might be possible in the departure end of the platform, though the extra length would be on the very narrow part alongside the stairs.
See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...row-express-type-shuttle.246415/#post-6156336

The mid-platform overlaps on platforms 13 & 14 currently restrict trains, and don’t allow arrivals unless the departing trains have cleared the overlaps, which will generally only be once the first train has departed and moved along the platform. It’s not about not liking to do this, it’s because the signalling doesn’t allow it.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,755
Location
Nottingham
See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...row-express-type-shuttle.246415/#post-6156336

The mid-platform overlaps on platforms 13 & 14 currently restrict trains, and don’t allow arrivals unless the departing trains have cleared the overlaps, which will generally only be once the first train has departed and moved along the platform. It’s not about not liking to do this, it’s because the signalling doesn’t allow it.
As I think I posted in that thread at some point, I've seen it happen, stampede and all. Maybe only if the first train has stopped far enough forward to clear the overlap?
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,163
Location
Wilmslow
As I think I posted in that thread at some point, I've seen it happen, stampede and all. Maybe only if the first train has stopped far enough forward to clear the overlap?
Yes, probably if it’s short enough. 6x185 (which was what I used yesterday on the 10:58 to Victoria) is too long.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,798
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Given the level of conservatism within ETCS UK implementations and maintaining freight paths in combination with the already well optimised signalling system.
No, you'd probably not get any more significant level of capacity in terms of tph. You'd be better off not running short trains.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,371
The only way to make any meaningful difference short of metroisation (i.e. unified Stock + ATO) would be to go to minimum block lengths (c.50m) but then you get to the problem of trains potentially being stuck half-in and half-out of a platform.
I've been looking, but I can't really find any hard minimum limit on block lengths in ETCS.

I suppose the only limit is how close you are willing to stack axle counters.
Of course if you went for an ETCS Hybrid installation you could potentially have blocks down to 20m or less long.

That might look a little peculiar if trains start stacking, but it should remain safe.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,646
Location
Northampton
I've been looking, but I can't really find any hard minimum limit on block lengths in ETCS.

I suppose the only limit is how close you are willing to stack axle counters.
Of course if you went for an ETCS Hybrid installation you could potentially have blocks down to 20m or less long.

That might look a little peculiar if trains start stacking, but it should remain safe.
Theoretically I suspect the limit is a single digit number of metres, as it will just be about can the axle counter get a clear reading. but 50m is a rough estimate for practical purposes as otherwise you've just go an insane number of axle counter sections (and the accompanying data setup for the routes, chance of failure, etc).
 
Joined
21 Dec 2016
Messages
115
I think the cost and disruption to the urban fabric of the city of four-tracking the whole viaduct would be too great. Assuming GBR can give a greater degree of control in changing some of these things I think the following steps taken broadly in turn over the short then longer term could deliver material improvements in capacity and reliability:

1: Increase unit lengths and employ greater use of units with doors at 1/3rd and 2/3rds (Transfer Liverpool to Nottingham to Transpennine and operate with 6 car 185s, increase length of Airport to Scotland services and replace Northern 156s).

2. Relocate Trafford Park intermodal terminals to Port Salford and remove freight services from the corridor.

3. Conversion of Atherton line to Metrolink and provision of stopping services on CLC line by Merseyrail and Tram Train (terminating at Deansgate Metrolink) to remove Oxford Road terminators to facilitate redevelopment.

4. Provide platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly, Oxford Road redevelopment along with closure of Deansgate station and additional platforms at Salford Central and Salford Crescent.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,798
Location
Somewhere, not in London
You seem to advocate for not disrupting the urban fabric of Manchester, but then come up with several instances of "improvements" that would result in a similar level of disruption of the 'urban fabric' but in 'nicer' areas of Manchester.
The viaduct through the former university area is not exactly going to suffer from 4 tracking, and it isn't exactly the highest value land at the far end.

Tram-Trains on Atherton and CLC have been raised so many times, one needs to consider the length of a tram train compared with a train, and look at the 'sparks effect' issues that are now affecting other converted lines with severe overcrowding as a result of being at max frequency, but no way of improving lengths or frequency.
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
3,950
Location
Newport
A big issue with Castlefields ETCS would be the amount and variety of rolling stock scheduled over it, all needing ETCS fitment.

A single operator, a single regional or suburban fleet type with identical egress/ingress points for every train and a plan for right time presentation at both ends would reduce its challenges.
 

westcoaster

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2006
Messages
4,514
Location
DTOS A or B
I've been looking, but I can't really find any hard minimum limit on block lengths in ETCS.

I suppose the only limit is how close you are willing to stack axle counters.
Of course if you went for an ETCS Hybrid installation you could potentially have blocks down to 20m or less long.

That might look a little peculiar if trains start stacking, but it should remain safe.
Minimum blocks we see on Thameslink is 60M.
Theoretically it could be shorter with virtual block markers (we use these under POSA working).


Could you use a POSA method working along that section, allowing the following train to enter and proceed behind the other train.
Obviously line speed is not high, and hopefully no blind corners.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,755
Location
Nottingham
Minimum blocks we see on Thameslink is 60M.
Theoretically it could be shorter with virtual block markers (we use these under POSA working).


Could you use a POSA method working along that section, allowing the following train to enter and proceed behind the other train.
Obviously line speed is not high, and hopefully no blind corners.
Platform 13 has a blind corner - not had a cab view but I'm pretty sure the stairs block the view of a train in the departure end until a following train is very close. And as I've already pointed out, it's undesirable from a crowd control point of view to have a second train stopping in the platform and passengers start moving past the narrow part to get to that end.
You seem to advocate for not disrupting the urban fabric of Manchester, but then come up with several instances of "improvements" that would result in a similar level of disruption of the 'urban fabric' but in 'nicer' areas of Manchester.
The viaduct through the former university area is not exactly going to suffer from 4 tracking, and it isn't exactly the highest value land at the far end.

Tram-Trains on Atherton and CLC have been raised so many times, one needs to consider the length of a tram train compared with a train, and look at the 'sparks effect' issues that are now affecting other converted lines with severe overcrowding as a result of being at max frequency, but no way of improving lengths or frequency.
As far as I'm aware nobody has seriously proposed quadrupling between Piccadilly and Oxford Road. The capacity bottlenecks are the two stations.

Atherton line tram-train wouldn't directly help with Castlefield Corridor - it would allow other trains from the Bolton direction to go to Victoria instead, but that would reduce connectivity from that route to the airport. Converting this route would need a quite lengthy street section to join into the rest of Metrolink, which itself is pretty much full in the city centre. But if those issues could be overcome, the lower capacity of a tram-train could be compensated by running more frequently.

Tram-train on CLC is a bit different. The need to share with fast services effectively limits the local service to 2 per hour, so running tram-trains instead would reduce the capacity significantly. This service already terminates at Oxford Road, and the proposed remodelling with a central terminating platform reduces conflict compared with today's use of platform 4. There are possibilities to improve reliability with overlapping Manchester to Warrington West and Liverpool to Birchwood locals, but these wouldn't increase frequency and would have only a marginal effect on congestion in the Oxford Road area.
 

Crithylum

Member
Joined
21 May 2024
Messages
353
Location
London Borough of Ealing
As far as I'm aware nobody has seriously proposed quadrupling between Piccadilly and Oxford Road. The capacity bottlenecks are the two stations.
Looking at satellite view, it does seem like some demolition would be needed for quad tracking, however a second island platform is probably more realistic. Some grade separated junctions at either end would also help1725727230282.png
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
8,144
Location
Leeds
Looking at satellite view, it does seem like some demolition would be needed for quad tracking, however a second island platform is probably more realistic. Some grade separated junctions at either end would also helpView attachment 165032
Two extra through platforms at Piccadilly, much where your red lines are, were officially proposed a few years ago, as a later part of the same overall project as the Ordsall Chord, and got as far as a public inquiry, but Chris Grayling when transport minister refused to fund them. There would also have been realignments and lengthening of the four through platforms at Oxford Road and abolition of the terminal platform. But edwin_m's point in your quote was that the line would have remained just two tracks at the narrowest point between Oxford Road and Piccadilly.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,805
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
As far as I'm aware nobody has seriously proposed quadrupling between Piccadilly and Oxford Road. The capacity bottlenecks are the two stations.

There isn't a huge problem with about 12tphpd going through a double track railway. Merseyrail puts 14 through the Loop on one track, and the Tube a lot more.

Where 15-16 would come in useful (and some rejigging on the approaches) would be to allow alternating occupation of sides or to prevent a broken down train or one otherwise requiring emergency assistance from totally stopping the job.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,792
Location
The White Rose County
There isn't a huge problem with about 12tphpd going through a double track railway. Merseyrail puts 14 through the Loop on one track, and the Tube a lot more

Doesn't Castlefield carry significantly more freight trains that Merseyrail ?

The answer to Castlefield is to remove all freight trains!
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,163
Location
Wilmslow
Doesn't Castlefield carry significantly more freight trains that Merseyrail ?

The answer to Castlefield is to remove all freight trains!
One an hour in each direction.
A bit of a pain but not impossible to cope with.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,755
Location
Nottingham
There isn't a huge problem with about 12tphpd going through a double track railway. Merseyrail puts 14 through the Loop on one track, and the Tube a lot more.

Where 15-16 would come in useful (and some rejigging on the approaches) would be to allow alternating occupation of sides or to prevent a broken down train or one otherwise requiring emergency assistance from totally stopping the job.
The dwell times are the bottleneck, so alternating use was indeed intended. This required adequate signalling overlaps beyond the platforms so a train could be arriving in one while the previous train was signalled out of the other one.
Would you have freight trains running on the Elizabeth line ?
On the routes out to Reading and Shenfield the EL shares track with freight.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,371
I think ATO (even without uniform stock) and pushing the ETCS block boundaries down to the theoretical minimum could probably get your reoccupation times down substantially.
This would likely require rebuilds at Oxford Road and the construction of 15/16.
However, without four tracking of the corridor that doesn't help with Deansgate station - trains stopping there block the line completely.

I don't think closing it is really a viable solution, but if we are going to be four tracking that segment......
 
Last edited:

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
Could you quadruple Deansgate - ie move the junction from west of the station to east of it?
some serious viaduct work needed but nothing major to demolish by a quick look at streetview.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top