Four central Glasgow stations to be gated

[MadCommuter]

ScotRail must lose a fortune in fares through Central because people know there is no penalty for not buying before boarding. If an examiner gets to you on the train, you can buy then, whilst also 'amending' the station you boarded at. Totally dishonest.

Once the gates are in, people will buy at boarding stations and the messy situation of buying on board will reduce, speeding up onboard inspection. Hopefully more people will buy season tix too, rather than the gamble of 'only being inspected 3 times a week, so just buying day tix'.

 

[NSEFAN]

Barriers become most effective when every station has them. It's all well and good installing them at the main stations, but as has been pointed out, they need to be at a lot more locations in order to protect revenue more effectively. Otherwise passengers can quite easily say that they got on somewhere else, obtaining a cheaper fare in the process.

 

[junglejames]

Malcolm, I agree with you about barriers being annoying, and on the whole inefective, unless every station is barriered. However you have shot yourself in the foot with some poor arguments. The Paisley to Ayr argument was a bad one. The best argument, is if you got on at Ayr without a ticket (if it doesnt have barriers), then when you get to Glasgow, assuming your not checked on the train, saying you got on at a closer station which doesnt have barriers. Basicially barriers solve none of the problems guards face regarding people being untruthful about where they got on.

Unless every station has barriers (god forbid. The railways would be horrible if that were the case), then barriers arent much use. Guards are virtually just as effective.
However barriers do cause numerous problems. Seeing people off from the platform is one, as is nearly missing your train.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Making an advance reservation at EDB yesturday a gentleman who clearly did not use the station or travel much was asking pritty much anyone who could about buying a platform tiket in order to see his elderly mother off. As more and more stations nationwide are equipped with the dreaded things isnt it time a network wide scheme of installing a small stand aloan machine where for around 20p and no complex touch screens or buttons those who wished could quickly obtain one? I doubt it would be abused as if penalties were enforced for anyone who did try to travel then the dodgers would be put off? Just a thought.

 

[MalcolmB]

@ scotsman
"but I can think of various scenarios in which train crew don't venture out.
1. They have been told not to
2. The passengers on the train have been drinking and they'd rather not get their head kicked in."

I can assure you that the times I am referring to there was no reason why the conductor/te could not come and inspect the tickets.
It was early afternoon, the train was really quiet and there were certainly no drunks! The same train, the same time, on different days with different TEs the tickets were inspected. It shows that some conductors/ticket inspectors just do not do their job. That is the only time it is possible to get a free ride, and as I'll point out later, this is not really 'free'.

Also the argument that the barriers will improve security and cut down on drunk and disorderly behaviour is so absurd I don't know where to begin. I will just give a couple of examples.

Example 1: I travelled on the Edinburgh to Queen Street line some time last year. There were very drunk and very loud youths on the train who were met by British Transports' finest when we arrived at Queen Street. Hmm. For some reason the barriers at both those stations didn't seem to stop them travelling. :-?

When I travelled one Friday night on the East Kilbride line there were drunken football yobs sinking at the top of their voices. NOW THIS MAY SHOCK YOU BUT.............(DUN, DUN, DUNNNNNNN.) THEY HAD TICKETS! Go figure!

Point made.


@OxtedL
"Barriers at both ends solve this."
It would be impossible to put barriers at every single station on the network. If you need me to elaborate on this, just let me know.

"Yes. Yes, they can."
I am not so sure about that. There's only so much stuff you can store on the magnetic strip. And again my point was the barrier wouldn't know if you are really travelling to Cardonald or travelling further along the line.

"Sorry, what about the dishonest people who cheat about start/end locations? Checking at each end as well as on the train has to help this..."
You could have this argument with every form of transport out there. Does your bus ticket have to be checked when you leave the bus to make sure you didn't get off a couple of stops after what it states on the ticket?

"Complete rubbish. There is always someone on hand to help you through."
You can't argue with the fact that it is still an extreme inconvenience and what if the people at the barriers don't believe your story? What is to stop people gaining free rides with such stories? It will also be difficult because at the time I mentioned there was still swarms of people coming through the manual barrier to board the express East Kilbride when I was trying to leave. Be difficult to get the staff's attention when they are dealing with a bunch of other people who may be having problems getting through.

"Also rubbish."
No it isn't! How will I get back off the platform with no ticket to let me through the barrier? The staff may let me through but how do I get through the barrier at a later train when my RTN ticket is cancelled? The staff won't believe me if I said I had to leave that train and get a later one. If they did, as I stated earlier, then anyone could pull that one.

"Get a receipt. (Doh!) If necessary, ask the person manning the gates to let you through/rescue your ticket."
How do I get a receipt? You can only get a receipt from the conductor/TE if you pay by card. We get on the train at a station with no ticket issuing facilities.
Asking the staff at the gate will be an extreme inconvenience not only for her but the hundreds off people behind her she will be holding up who are trying to get to work through the stupid barriers. If they did let her through without putting the ticket through the machine then this beats the point of the barriers. What is to stop her using the ticket again later in the day? Surely everyone could pull that story to get through the barriers? "rescuing" the ticket will cost time and effort. Remember she, and others in a similar situation, will have to do this EVERY DAY! :roll:

"They reduce crush on platforms in the PM peak. And generally they don't obstruct flow substantially anyway."
Letting people through 1 or 2 at a time with delays of at least 5 seconds between each one will reduce crush and won't obstruct flow substantially? (scratches head) I don't see that somehow. I at least see large swarms trailing in a cone shape back onto the main concourse obstructing people who are waiting or trying to get to their platforms. I can also see people pushing and shoving to get to the barriers first when alighting the train to get to work on time.


@CarterUSM
Yes the EK train is busy. So why don't they make the train LONGER and have more than one CONDUCTOR?
Not every station, mine doesn't, has ticket issuing facilities. The manned barriers already encourage people to buy tickets at peak times. At non peak times there is no reason whatsoever for the onboard staff not to be able to sell and/or inspect tickets to everyone on a central bound train.
They must've had a good reason to do away with the barriers they had. They managed for nearly a century without computerised automatic barriers. They managed all through the 90s without them at least. Many stations in the UK manage fine without them. I was at Manchester last year, no automatic barriers there.

@MadCommuter
I have seen examiners challanging the station that people say they got on. They have a good look at who gets on at what station and they know when you got on. I know this because when I get on at my station the conductor comes straight to me and then the other people who got on with me. Obviously he got to all the other people on the train before the train got to my station.
How can I buy a ticket at a station that has no ticket facilities? The barriers would make the dishonesty worse. If you get to the barrier without a ticket you obviously would have to buy a ticket there just as you do now with the manual barriers. It is far easier to lie about where you got on at that stage.


To be clear, it doesn't matter what you can do to get round the problems the barriers throw up the fact still remains that they are an inconvenience, and they will in one way or another, slow commuters down, making them miss trains or miss appointments and generally irritate everyone.

Nearly everyone I know who uses trains uses them both ways, in other words they get returns. Hardly anyone get singles from Central to their destination. How did they get into town in the first place? At present it is almost impossible to get a 'free' journey from trains leaving Central station. At peak times there is the barrier check and then sometimes an on-train check. At non peak times the conductor always gets to you.

On the journey INTO Central from your home station it is pretty much impossible to get a 'free' ride. At non-peak times there is no reason why the conductor/TE can't get to you. Just because the train is full is not a good excuse because they all get on at different stops. There is plenty of time for the conductor to get to everyone. The argument that it is impossible to inspect the people who get on at the station just before central is nonsense. What's the maximum amount of people that board at such a station? 10? Easy peasy. The train always takes a little bit to get over the bridge.

The only time you get a 'free' journey into Central, and again this is rare in my experience, is when the conductor/TE doesn't bother to come up the train! Again that is the staff's fault. Such conductors/TEs should be reprimanded. As I stated earlier this isn't really free because, (dun, dun, dunnnnn) such people want to come home again! As it's almost impossible to be able to get a 'free' ride both ways such people will have to buy a single from Central back home. The diffence between a Single and a Return is only 20p! Big saving. Since the fares have gone up by 20p then the single is the price the return used to be.

At peak times when the train is mobbed so the conductor can't get up the train, you can't get through the manual barriers. I know this works because there is always a large queue buying tickets from the couple of conductors just before the barriers. I know I am always in it! As I said my station doesn't sell tickets. Yes they could lie about the station of boarding at that point but they could do the same with the automatic barriers anway!

The current system appears to work quite well.

 

[scotsman]

Are you just going to insult as many rail staff on here as possible, you're going the right way about it?

So, scenario for you:

Strathspey Railway. 1450 departure from Boat of Garten to Broomhill. You hold a ticket and you spot 3 folk in the Guard's Office talking (all in Uniform). No-one checks your ticket. Please explain what has been done wrong in this situation.

 

[The_Stig]

@CarterUSM
Yes the EK train is busy. So why don't they make the train LONGER and have more than one CONDUCTOR?

Excellent idea. :roll:

Then after the peak times when the trains aren't that busy they will all just sit around in a huge yard all day or perhaps just run them around all day wasting fuel, pushing ticket prices up.

 

[OxtedL]

@OxtedL
"Barriers at both ends solve this."
It would be impossible to put barriers at every single station on the network. If you need me to elaborate on this, just let me know.

Indeed, fair enough. Barriers at one end are a start, however, as has been pointed out. They will encourage a large proportion to shift away from risking it. Trust me, Oxted has new barriers.

"Yes. Yes, they can."
I am not so sure about that. There's only so much stuff you can store on the magnetic strip. And again my point was the barrier wouldn't know if you are really travelling to Cardonald or travelling further along the line.

You're right about the dishonesty. However, (with a few exceptions - see thread about Finsbury Park barriers) ticket barriers a fine about differentiating between ticket types, and only have a problem when they haven't been programmed completely properly. A minority of ticket types may have a problem, but almost all should have no issue.

"Sorry, what about the dishonest people who cheat about start/end locations? Checking at each end as well as on the train has to help this..."
You could have this argument with every form of transport out there. Does your bus ticket have to be checked when you leave the bus to make sure you didn't get off a couple of stops after what it states on the ticket?

You are again pointing out the obvious flaw in my argument. However, as mentioned above, one end is a very, very good start.

"Complete rubbish. There is always someone on hand to help you through."
You can't argue with the fact that it is still an extreme inconvenience and what if the people at the barriers don't believe your story? What is to stop people gaining free rides with such stories? It will also be difficult because at the time I mentioned there was still swarms of people coming through the manual barrier to board the express East Kilbride when I was trying to leave. Be difficult to get the staff's attention when they are dealing with a bunch of other people who may be having problems getting through.

You need a ticket to go through the barriers onto a platform. You retain that ticket after you have gone through. That's how barriers work. Let's say its a return portion from Oxted to Hurst Green (for ease). I go through the barriers at Oxted, but decide I need to leave again. I simply ask the man on the barriers to let me back through. The barriers will often simply let me do it. Either way, I get to keep my ticket to try again later. Limited hassle. Automatic barrier staff are usually less hassled than manual staff, as they will (touch wood) be theoretically inspecting fewer tickets.

"Also rubbish."
No it isn't! How will I get back off the platform with no ticket to let me through the barrier? The staff may let me through but how do I get through the barrier at a later train when my RTN ticket is cancelled? The staff won't believe me if I said I had to leave that train and get a later one. If they did, as I stated earlier, then anyone could pull that one.

You have made a mistake. Your ticket is not swallowed on entry to a platform, only on completion of a journey. See above.

"Get a receipt. (Doh!) If necessary, ask the person manning the gates to let you through/rescue your ticket."
How do I get a receipt? You can only get a receipt from the conductor/TE if you pay by card. We get on the train at a station with no ticket issuing facilities.
Asking the staff at the gate will be an extreme inconvenience not only for her but the hundreds off people behind her she will be holding up who are trying to get to work through the stupid barriers. If they did let her through without putting the ticket through the machine then this beats the point of the barriers. What is to stop her using the ticket again later in the day? Surely everyone could pull that story to get through the barriers? "rescuing" the ticket will cost time and effort. Remember she, and others in a similar situation, will have to do this EVERY DAY! :roll:

I have never struggled to get a receipt. Ever. Even paying by cash. You just have to ask. Ticket machines will do it too.

Asking the staff to rescue your ticket is a last resort.

"They reduce crush on platforms in the PM peak. And generally they don't obstruct flow substantially anyway."
Letting people through 1 or 2 at a time with delays of at least 5 seconds between each one will reduce crush and won't obstruct flow substantially? (scratches head) I don't see that somehow. I at least see large swarms trailing in a cone shape back onto the main concourse obstructing people who are waiting or trying to get to their platforms. I can also see people pushing and shoving to get to the barriers first when alighting the train to get to work on time.

Ticket barriers are tried and tested. Yes they are inconvenient, but if there were any major issues with crush they would not be allowed. I see where you're coming from though.

EVERYBODY resents ticket barriers when they are first introduced. They appear annoying, make us feel under scrutiny, force us to be honest those few extra times (yes, I mean that). However, they will often make a huge difference to the proportion of people buying tickets. I'm waiting to see the new figures for Oxted, which has new barriers, historically having a lot of fare dodging. I expect passenger usage to be much higher this year.

At the end of the day, however annoyed you may feel, they ensure that your railway is being payed for (well, to a certain degree more anyway). They're not perfect, but we have to live with them.

 

[jon0844]

@MalcolmB

Gatelines can and do regulate passenger flows to stop dangerous overcrowding on platforms. That's a fact, and go to many London Underground stations to see how effective it is.

Far better to have people queuing (and moaning!) about it taking ages to get through the gates upstairs in the ticket hall than all piling through and forcing someone in front of a train on a busy platform.

Now, when it comes to the railway, it is true that some stations have far too few gates. Finsbury Park is one, Welwyn Garden City another. They can't cope with the flows and must therefore remain open during the peaks, which makes it a bit of a nonsense given how easy it is to slip through undetected coming off a packed peak train where RPIs couldn't effectively work onboard either.

 

[OxtedL]

@MalcolmB

Gatelines can and do regulate passenger flows to stop dangerous overcrowding on platforms. That's a fact, and go to many London Underground stations to see how effective it is.

Far better to have people queuing (and moaning!) about it taking ages to get through the gates upstairs in the ticket hall than all piling through and forcing someone in front of a train on a busy platform.

Oh yes, I had forgotten that. Take the Victoria line at Victoria, for example.

 

[CarterUSM]

Oh dear Malcolm, you really do have yourself in a tizz here about these gates, and without much in reasoned debate also. The fact is, they will pay for themselves in no time, and I also think you will be pleasantly surprised at how they regulate flow and at the speed you may enter, or exit for that matter. You would also be surprised how many 'singles from central' are sold.

 

[68000]

I hate to see Glasgow Central turn to a gated nightmare but if that is the only way to ensure passengers pay their way. I think ScotRail need to invest in more manned barriers at the outlying stations otherwise a lot of the people who go free will just buy the shorter journey ticket.

The LL at Central is a nightmare if 2 trains arrive at the same time. I would hate to see the delay when the barriers go in.

 

[MalcolmB]

@scotsman
"Are you just going to insult as many rail staff on here as possible, you're going the right way about it?

So, scenario for you:

Strathspey Railway. 1450 departure from Boat of Garten to Broomhill. You hold a ticket and you spot 3 folk in the Guard's Office talking (all in Uniform). No-one checks your ticket. Please explain what has been done wrong in this situation. "

I don't understand what you are getting at. I am just telling you what happens. The staff higher up have no idea how lazy some of the on-train staff really are. I don't mean all Scotrail staff don't do their job but simply pointing out that the times that I have seen people getting free rides is because the ticket inspector has not bothered to go up and down the train at non-peak, non-busy times. This is a FACT! I am not trying to offend anyone. The fact is that some Scotrail staff simply cannot be bothered.


@The Stig
"Excellent idea. Then after the peak times when the trains aren't that busy they will all just sit around in a huge yard all day or perhaps just run them around all day wasting fuel, pushing ticket prices up."

You statement is absolute crazy. Am I not correct in stating that at peak times commuters are charged extra! What is this extra charge for if we are all crammed into over crowded trains? We are paying extra to stand in overcrowded corridors! That money should go to LONGER trains/more staff.
What is wrong with the extra carriages sitting in the yards at off-peak times? They do that anyway. I am sure there are trains sitting there on standby.
Did Scotrail not, just recently, lengthen the platforms to allow longer trains? Why pay for that and then not implement it!
If these barriers do increase revenue then I want to see investment in more rolling stock!


@ Oxted
"You have made a mistake. Your ticket is not swallowed on entry to a platform, only on completion of a journey. See above."

No I haven't. On the incoming jorney, from my station into Central, the 'out' portion would be swallowed by the barrier would it not? Right then if I get onto the platform later with the 'return' part and decide I want to leave the platform again I would have no 'out' ticket to get past the barrier. Surely the machines would 'cancel' the ticket like the Underground trains do. So surely the 'RTN' ticket would be cancelled prohibiting me from using it on the barriers again. If it didn't cancel it what would stop me from using the ticket more than once a day. Like once to get home from work and again later to get home from the cinema or whatever.

@jonmorris0844
"Gatelines can and do regulate passenger flows to stop dangerous overcrowding on platforms."
You mean they make people miss trains. I fail to see how the platforms at Glasgow Central could overcrowd. They hold way more people than the train does. I have never ever seen more people on the platform than have been able to board the train. What you are proposing would imply that those waiting in the queue to get through the barrier would see the train leave before they get to reach the barrier in time. This could result in trains leaving at less than full capacity,

 

[OxtedL]

No I haven't. On the incoming jorney, from my station into Central, the 'out' portion would be swallowed by the barrier would it not? Right then if I get onto the platform later with the 'return' part and decide I want to leave the platform again I would have no 'out' ticket to get past the barrier. Surely the machines would 'cancel' the ticket like the Underground trains do. So surely the 'RTN' ticket would be cancelled prohibiting me from using it on the barriers again. If it didn't cancel it what would stop me from using the ticket more than once a day. Like once to get home from work and again later to get home from the cinema or whatever.

Yes you have made a mistake. It's fine to use the RTN part in these circumstances, I believe. The barriers won't normally let you straight out, to prevent people from passing tickets between each other. Just wait (15 mins?). Someone will correct me/back me up on the details here, but there is zero chance of you being stuck on a platform when you have bought a valid ticket.

 

[bAzTNM]

I noticed today that the departure boards were saying that the gates would be introduced to Charing Cross on the 7th June.

 

[Failed Unit]

I noticed today that the departure boards were saying that the gates would be introduced to Charing Cross on the 7th June.

Will they cover the lifts, or will it be a case that if you want a free ride get in the lift?

 

[bAzTNM]

Will they cover the lifts, or will it be a case that if you want a free ride get in the lift?

Wouldn't know. It flashed up on the (small) Bellgrove board.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know the layout of the station, but at stations with lifts outside the gated areas, they lock them out of use and activate them in conjunction with CCTV (i.e. you show your ticket to the camera).

A bit of a bodge, and staff probably can't even make out what the ticket says, but it seems to be considered a viable solution! I suppose the alternative is to have staff at the lifts?

@jonmorris0844
"Gatelines can and do regulate passenger flows to stop dangerous overcrowding on platforms."
You mean they make people miss trains. I fail to see how the platforms at Glasgow Central could overcrowd. They hold way more people than the train does. I have never ever seen more people on the platform than have been able to board the train. What you are proposing would imply that those waiting in the queue to get through the barrier would see the train leave before they get to reach the barrier in time. This could result in trains leaving at less than full capacity,

Where did I say that gates are designed to regulate flows at all stations? You said you couldn't see how it would work, and I gave an example of where it does work - and has done for some time. I also pointed out stations where not enough gates has the problem where people can't get out quick enough, hence the set up at Finsbury Park with two giant side barriers that fly open (well, slide rather slowly!) if the emergency button is pressed, or power fails. As it happens, they now have them open at peak times.

Nobody is saying that at a large station with ample room and less footfall, you'd need to set the gates to slow people down.

And if there are less people than can fit on the train, why would gates make them miss the train? Presumably there wouldn't be a huge queue of people all trying to get through just seconds before the train arrives/is about to leave? If so, get there earlier - as you can be held up by anything if you leave it too late; a manual ticket check, a police barrier checking for drugs/people on warrant, tourist groups standing around chatting and not having a clue that they're in the way etc.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't know the layout of the station, but at stations with lifts outside the gated areas, they lock them out of use and activate them in conjunction with CCTV (i.e. you show your ticket to the camera).

A bit of a bodge, and staff probably can't even make out what the ticket says, but it seems to be considered a viable solution! I suppose the alternative is to have staff at the lifts?

I am sure Me123 will give a better description then me if he is reading, but you have the stairs to both platforms where I suspect the gateline will be, followed by a retail unit then 2 lifts in opposite corners of the station. I can't see how it would be possible to include the lifts in the main gateline, but there is room to put a wide gate in front of the lifts without causing too much obstruction considering the lifts are fair small. You have if I remember correctly about 2 meters of corridor.

 

[68000]

And if there are less people than can fit on the train, why would gates make them miss the train? Presumably there wouldn't be a huge queue of people all trying to get through just seconds before the train arrives/is about to leave? If so, get there earlier - as you can be held up by anything if you leave it too late; a manual ticket check, a police barrier checking for drugs/people on warrant, tourist groups standing around chatting and not having a clue that they're in the way etc.

Have you seen how long the customer is given to get to a train from the main board at Glasgow Central?

 

[scotsman]

@scotsman
"Are you just going to insult as many rail staff on here as possible, you're going the right way about it?

So, scenario for you:

Strathspey Railway. 1450 departure from Boat of Garten to Broomhill. You hold a ticket and you spot 3 folk in the Guard's Office talking (all in Uniform). No-one checks your ticket. Please explain what has been done wrong in this situation. "

I don't understand what you are getting at. I am just telling you what happens. The staff higher up have no idea how lazy some of the on-train staff really are. I don't mean all Scotrail staff don't do their job but simply pointing out that the times that I have seen people getting free rides is because the ticket inspector has not bothered to go up and down the train at non-peak, non-busy times. This is a FACT! I am not trying to offend anyone. The fact is that some Scotrail staff simply cannot be bothered.

Well, in that scenario I detailed I expected you to say that the crew were being lazy/couldn't be bothered/more interested in their conversation etc. When in fact, you didn't know the full facts. In this day in question there were three people in the Office. One Guard, one Guard Inspector, one Ticket Inspector (me). The 'conversation' was actually the Inspector instructing me in track safety (more important than revenue) and the Guard didn't do anything because it was MY job to check the tickets. Would you have known that? No. Were you likely to make a rash assumption had it been on ScotRail? Yes.

 

[RailwayBear]

We done a manual barrier at Charing cross with the fraud and security for a full week during the peak and we took in £30.000 which would have just walked out of the station.


The Charing Cross barriers go LIVE on the 7Th June 2011

 

[The_Stig]

@The Stig

You statement is absolute crazy. Am I not correct in stating that at peak times commuters are charged extra! What is this extra charge for if we are all crammed into over crowded trains? We are paying extra to stand in overcrowded corridors! That money should go to LONGER trains/more staff.
What is wrong with the extra carriages sitting in the yards at off-peak times? They do that anyway. I am sure there are trains sitting there on standby.
Did Scotrail not, just recently, lengthen the platforms to allow longer trains? Why pay for that and then not implement it!
If these barriers do increase revenue then I want to see investment in more rolling stock!

Services are strengthened at peak times when there are more passengers. The units not required during off peak times then stable at various locations waiting to be utilised when required.

Yes, platforms have been lengthened and also more rolling stock in the form of 380's have been bought before the ticket barriers have even been installed allowing other services to be strengthened so what is your point? Just keep buying trains until everyone has a seat at the peak time?

 

[me123]

I am sure Me123 will give a better description then me if he is reading, but you have the stairs to both platforms where I suspect the gateline will be, followed by a retail unit then 2 lifts in opposite corners of the station. I can't see how it would be possible to include the lifts in the main gateline, but there is room to put a wide gate in front of the lifts without causing too much obstruction considering the lifts are fair small. You have if I remember correctly about 2 meters of corridor.

It would not be possible to include the lifts without blocking off the WHSmith (which wouldn't be a major issue) and the ticket office (which would be stupid). I know things are sometimes said about the management at Scotrail, but I'm pretty sure they're not thick enough to put the ticket office behind the barrier...

I don't know what will happen wrt the lifts. The stairs are easy enough to cordon off. But the lifts are in an impossible location, and even if you were to cordon these off separately, there simply isn't enough room (I think the 2m you mention is a gross overestimation!). I actually didn't think it would be possible to barrier off this station without extending it slightly. Another issue I've not yet considered is that there is a disabled unisex toilet beyond where the barriers will probably be for the steps; not much use for someone in a wheelchair! I look forward to see how it will be acheived, but I don't think the efforts at this station are going to be anything more than a bad result for everyone; not effective at revenue protection, and not just making the station inconvenient for all concerned.

Regardless of what happens, if they introduce a manual check at the lifts, there is going to be chaos on Tuesday morning. Loads of people take the lifts up at that station.

 

[Chew Chew]

We done a manual barrier at Charing cross with the fraud and security for a full week during the peak and we took in £30.000 which would have just walked out of the station.


The Charing Cross barriers go LIVE on the 7Th June 2011

£30k in a week.

 

[MalcolmB]

I can see how it works on underground trains but not on busy mainline stations as I was pointing out.

"And if there are less people than can fit on the train, why would gates make them miss the train? Presumably there wouldn't be a huge queue of people all trying to get through just seconds before the train arrives/is about to leave? If so, get there earlier - as you can be held up by anything if you leave it too late; a manual ticket check, a police barrier checking for drugs/people on warrant, tourist groups standing around chatting and not having a clue that they're in the way etc. "

That is a fair point but I never said less people than can fit on the train. You could have five trains worth of people on the platform and there wouldn't be dangerous overcrowding. It is very easy to rush to Central station from work and just barely miss the train. Waiting for the next one would result in you missing your dinner or something on TV. You are also forgetting that the manual ticket check can let several people through at once and at a steady flow speed, the automatic barrier will have a slight delay between each person and let one or two through at a time, depending on how many gates wide it is. Also if people have bikes, prams, heavy shopping, wheelchairs, this will slow things down a bit.

You are also forgetting that the queue of people trying to get through the barrier to get on the platform won't just be getting on my train but the train on the other platform beside mine also. Plus if there are trains at the front of our trains there will be people trying to get through the barrier to get on those trains. As soon as the platform numbers come up on the board people will go to the platform regardless of whether the train is there or not yet. They want a seat you see. Also it doesn't come up on the board that long before the train leaves. Let's not also forget that when the train does come in you also have passengers leaving the train and wanting out of the barriers!
In short you could have four trains worth of passengers trying to get through the barrier. My train could be leaving first but I am near the back of the queue, my train leaves, I may not know this until I reach the barrier, I'd have to leave the queue to go and see when the next train is and rejoin another queue. Oh the joy. I think I'd rather drive to work.

 

[jon0844]

If you've seen how gates work in practice, once people get used to them (i.e. regular commuters) there's barely any delay at all. Introduce smartcards and the gates pretty much remain open the whole time and people don't even need to stop.

It's not as big a deal as you make out if there are enough gates. If the station is that big, I am sure there will be many gates.

If you are seriously suggesting driving to work instead of getting to the gateline a few seconds earlier, you seem rather delusional.

Manual 'gates' are faster because they usually involve staff looking at anything that looks like a ticket, without actually checking. These checks are pretty pointless as anyone with even a little confidence can blag their way through. It's only when some people panic and confess that such checks usually pay off.

 

[MalcolmB]

Do you actually read what I write?

In my experience all of the times that I have been on my train and the ticket inspector hasn't came up the train collecting tickets there is absolutly no reason whatsoever for him not to have done so.
The train was only 1/4 full, mostly little old ladies and some students.
There were no drunks.
He WAS ON HIS OWN in the cabin in the back.
He wasn't speaking to anyone.
He was able to open the doors when we arrived at platforms and even speak over the PA but just went back into the little cabin.
Another time he examined some tickets but then after the next station 'gave up' and went back into the cab at the back and didn't bother doing any of the rest of the people who got on afterwards.
The exact train at the exact time, the next day, in the same conditions, other ticket inspectors 'did their job.'
Also a couple of times I looked through the window at the back of train as I crossed the bridge at my station and I noticed that the ticket inspector sat down AND READ A NEWSPAPER!

I don't know why you are getting so defensive about this. I am not attacking you or all on-train staff. I can see how inspecting tickets can be very boring and on some days I couldn't be bothered. You get this on buses as well. Some drivers don't even look at your Firstday ticket when you hold it up, they just look away into space. Others wave you on without even looking in your direction! Try and think up some excuse for that!

I can see on some occasions there may be a reason for the conductor not coming, maybe his/her machine is out of tickets or broke? But this happens too often for these things to be the reason. AND YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT! My original point was that that was the only times that I could see that someone could get a free ride going into Central.


As for your scenario, what were they doing wrong? Such conversations should take place in the morning when you all first arrive for work BEFORE you get on any train! There should be a time for staff training. You don't go into a shop and all the staff are at a room in the back getting trained allowing you to walk out with stuff or leave you waiting at the cash desk.

@jonmorris0844

I was assuming that the gates would be at the end of each of the platforms where the manual barriers are now. They are only so wide, you can only fit so many gates in there. If they are all far back blocking off all the platforms at once like in Queen Street that will be even worse! How would access the little food stalls and the cash machines and cafes? Also it would take up a lot of space on an already busy concourse.

If the gates are pretty much open all the time anyone can just quickly nip through them behind someone else. I can see this happening a lot!

The manual checks still encourage people to go and buy a ticket. I know it works for me, I wouldn't like to risk it. Also there is no reason why they can't check each ticket like they used to do in the old days. There are generally more than one person there so a couple of people could be done at once. While it will be just as slow as the automatic barrier I'd like to deal with people instead of stupid machines. This will also ensure that people have the right ticket for that train, which has been pointed out earlier, the automatic barriers cannot do. This will mean that the tickets wouldn't need to be checked again on the train.

Also if the automatic gates need to be manned to whole time the station is open why don't the manual barriers just do that now anyway. FirstScotrail's argument was that fare dodgers have moved to non-peak times so they don't get barrier checks. Why not just have barrier checks round the clock. What more man power? The automatic gates are going to need that anyway.

 

[OxtedL]

Ah, but with permanent manual barriers (like at Birmingham New Street) people realise and eventually catch on to the idea. The West Midlands has a bit of a problem now. Perhaps not on the scale of Glasgow, but then I don't know.

 

[jon0844]

Are the food stalls fixed, or could they be relocated? At King's Cross, they've moved them as various bits of work have been done.

I am sure the more sensible option at a large station is to have one big group of gates, rather than lots of sets (maybe only 3-5 gates for each section) which need to have more staff.

And, it's not impossible to have some stalls behind the gates. I am not even sure the retailers (probably run by SSP anyway) would mind, as most people at a train station ARE travelling so they're hardly blocking off many customers who aren't. Only those without valid tickets would be unable to buy anything!