UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[signed]

Source please.

I am actually mistaken, and thought that from memory, it's not a thing from my research now.

 

[Ediswan]

I am actually mistaken, and thought that from memory, it's not a thing from my research now.

Thanks. Actually, I would be happy if a car asked, on the driver screen, "Is this a new 12V battery ?" and used that to decide whether to reset any assessment of 12V battery capacity.

 

[Krokodil]

My major car recovery patrolman reckons that the reason ICE car reliability is plummeting is the overcomplicated electronics are failing rather than a mechanical fault.

Same with trains then. Most faults seem to be "computer says no" these days.

 

[Noddy]

If you were going from Folkestone to Dunblane youd go M20/25/11/A14/1/66 to join the M6 at Penrith via Scotch Corner its shorter and nearly always quicker that way. The only regular hold up on that route is the A1 Doncaster Bypass between the M18 and M62. In fact its often quicker to take the M18 eastwards and then the M62 back west to ferrybridge. In 30 years of travelling between Kent and Faslane the only time Id use the M6 south of penrith was when Stainmoor was closed by snow. Its about 485 miles to Dunblane using that route.

It is (and it is the way I would go) but over the A66 there are still long sections of single carriageway so you’d be only legally allowed to travel at a maximum of 60mph (plus as you point out it’s not the full 500 miles). I chose the M6 route because you’d be legally able to travel at 70mph for the entire 500 miles. Whether that would be true in practice is another matter(!) but it gives an idea of what the car is capable of in a UK context.

 

[GLC]

I am actually mistaken, and thought that from memory, it's not a thing from my research now.

It definitely is a thing on some cars. I replaced the 12v battery in my BMW i3, and it is recommend (but not required), to code the battery to the vehicle. The coding is recommended because the car keeps track of estimated capacity of the 12v battery, and will adjust the charging cycle to accommodate as the battery ages. When you code the battery to the car, it's the signal to the car to reset the learning process. Scanning the car with a BMW OBD reader highlighted the error code for the battery until I coded it (which took 2 seconds with the same app)

 

[Ken H]

It is (and it is the way I would go) but over the A66 there are still long sections of single carriageway so you’d be only legally allowed to travel at a maximum of 60mph (plus as you point out it’s not the full 500 miles). I chose the M6 route because you’d be legally able to travel at 70mph for the entire 500 miles. Whether that would be true in practice is another matter(!) but it gives an idea of what the car is capable of in a UK context.

The A66 goes high into the Pennines. Dragging nearly 2 tonnes up there will take some energy. Not convinced how much you will regenerate on the way down.
There again the M6 goes over Shap.

 

[paul1609]

It is (and it is the way I would go) but over the A66 there are still long sections of single carriageway so you’d be only legally allowed to travel at a maximum of 60mph (plus as you point out it’s not the full 500 miles). I chose the M6 route because you’d be legally able to travel at 70mph for the entire 500 miles. Whether that would be true in practice is another matter(!) but it gives an idea of what the car is capable of in a UK context.

I went from Littlehampton to Cockermouth via Oxford and the M6 a few weeks ago I reckon on the M40/42/6 theres probably not far short of 100 miles that has 50 mph temporary speed limits in force atm.

 

[Bald Rick]

I went from Littlehampton to Cockermouth via Oxford and the M6 a few weeks ago I reckon on the M40/42/6 theres probably not far short of 100 miles that has 50 mph temporary speed limits in force atm.

That‘s excellent for battery range

 

[paul1609]

That‘s excellent for battery range

I rather imagine that EV drivers are only doing 50 mph on long trips anyway, https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electri...c-car-public-charging-costs-rac-charge-watch/

 

[Deafdoggie]

I rather imagine that EV drivers are only doing 50 mph on long trips anyway, https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electri...c-car-public-charging-costs-rac-charge-watch/

Bank Holiday weekend we went Midlands to Edinburgh at 70MPH, no issues at all. The only real "issue" was Killington Lakes on the way back where the chargers were hideously slow.

 

[paul1609]

Bank Holiday weekend we went Midlands to Edinburgh at 70MPH, no issues at all. The only real "issue" was Killington Lakes on the way back where the chargers were hideously slow.

One of the advantages of living in the middle of the country is that you wouldnt need the range of somebody like myself who lives on the periphary. When I tried out a MG4 a couple of years ago on the Wittersham to Cockermouth family run it was already expecting me to pull in to charge it at 77p/KWH (RAC figures) by Peterborough (i did make it to Grantham in the End). Im not in the market for a new vehicle atm but if I was the cost of public charging would rule out an EV for me. The recent HEVs Ive driven are returning near 60 mpg on the long trips now without the enforced 40 min charging stops every 200 miles. The publically charged EV fuel cost is now over twice the price in pence per mile when compared to something like a Toyota or Dacia HEV. Thats kind of the jest I was making about EV drivers keeping to 50 mph to avoid paying for public charging. I should emphasise that Im not against EVs in any way, Ive had 2 Nissan Leafs as company cars but the Hybrid technology and practicality atm is just so much better.

 

[jon0844]

One of the advantages of living in the middle of the country is that you wouldnt need the range of somebody like myself who lives on the periphary. When I tried out a MG4 a couple of years ago on the Wittersham to Cockermouth family run it was already expecting me to pull in to charge it at 77p/KWH (RAC figures) by Peterborough (i did make it to Grantham in the End). Im not in the market for a new vehicle atm but if I was the cost of public charging would rule out an EV for me. The recent HEVs Ive driven are returning near 60 mpg on the long trips now without the enforced 40 min charging stops every 200 miles. The publically charged EV fuel cost is now over twice the price in pence per mile when compared to something like a Toyota or Dacia HEV. Thats kind of the jest I was making about EV drivers keeping to 50 mph to avoid paying for public charging. I should emphasise that Im not against EVs in any way, Ive had 2 Nissan Leafs as company cars but the Hybrid technology and practicality atm is just so much better.

I wouldn't want an older hybrid given the cost of servicing and maintenance, but if you're changing every few years (or leasing) then I am sure they're fine for a lot of people. Basically, own one while it's covered under warranty.

I just paid £300 for a service on a 1.2ltr petrol car so I'm quite looking forward to owning an EV that doesn't really need much doing at all.

 

[paul1609]

I wouldn't want an older hybrid given the cost of servicing and maintenance, but if you're changing every few years (or leasing) then I am sure they're fine for a lot of people. Basically, own one while it's covered under warranty.

I just paid £300 for a service on a 1.2ltr petrol car so I'm quite looking forward to owning an EV that doesn't really need much doing at all.

£300, that would take you about 1300 miles in an EV at public charging rates.

 

[Bald Rick]

When I tried out a MG4 a couple of years ago on the Wittersham to Cockermouth family run it was already expecting me to pull in to charge it at 77p/KWH (RAC figures) by Peterborough (i did make it to Grantham in the End). Im not in the market for a new vehicle atm but if I was the cost of public charging would rule out an EV for me.

Surely what matters is not the cost of public charging, but the average cost of charging over the long term use of your vehicle. Whilst I would baulk at paying 77p/kWh, if I was only doing it 4 times a year, for 10% of my annual mileage, and the rest was at (say) 12p/kwh, then the average at 4-6p a mile is still very attractive.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....the cost of public charging would rule out an EV for me.....

I'd suggest as Bald Rick says, that is a fairly narrow perspective.

Surely what matters is not the cost of public charging, but the average cost of charging over the long term use of your vehicle. Whilst I would baulk at paying 77p/kWh, if I was only doing it 4 times a year, for 10% of my annal mileage, and the rest was at (say) 12p/kwh, then the average at 4-6p a mile is still very attractive.

Exactly. Roadside charging costs are very broadly (there are too many variables to be more specific) in line with liquid fuel costs per mile and, yes, they are expensive. But (again in broad terms) it's roughly what you'd pay to buy liquid fuel. So, neither a benefit nor a big loss there. However, in the case of liquid fuel, you have absolutely no option to pay significantly less. Whereas an EV doesn't care where its electricity comes from. And so it's quite feasible for most to buy their electricity for maybe 1/10th the typical roadside price. And most will do that, most of the time. Accepting that there are massive variations in vehicle efficiency and driving patterns and so on - in my case, my 5-year old, 36k mile car has averaged less than 2p/mile in fuel cost since new. Including a good number of those over-priced roadside chargers, but massively diluted with many home sessions alongside.

It's important to think in different terms. We need to unlearn what we've been used to in the liquid world (fill it up at a station, drive it, fill it up at a station, drive it, rinse and repeat). And relearn that we only do that when it's unavoidable.

 

[E27007]

I wouldn't want an older hybrid given the cost of servicing and maintenance, but if you're changing every few years (or leasing) then I am sure they're fine for a lot of people. Basically, own one while it's covered under warranty.

I just paid £300 for a service on a 1.2ltr petrol car so I'm quite looking forward to owning an EV that doesn't really need much doing at all.

An IC car has to be serviced to a schedule of mileage or calendar, non-adherence to the schedule invalidates the warranty.
For a ZEV, do we have a similar schedule of mileage and calendar for servicing, if the ZEV is not serviced to schedule , is the warranty for the 8-year battery invalidated?

 

[Narrowgauge725]

I am roughly doing 11,000 miles a year 1,200 of those I am paying slightly less that the equivalent of petrol prices for my charging, the rest are either as 9p per KWH, a quarter of petrol price or actually free. Yes there is a public charge where I volunteer that is currently free. Once a month I do 175 mile trip, return the return being where I have paid 35p KWH slightly less than the equivalent I paid for my old ICE car. The trip down being either free or at most 1/4 of petrol costs. Not sure how the deprecation will work out but 12 months into EV ownership I have no regrets.

 

[Harpers Tate]

An IC car has to be serviced to a schedule of mileage or calendar, non-adherence to the schedule invalidates the warranty.
For a ZEV, do we have a similar schedule of mileage and calendar for servicing, if the ZEV is not serviced to schedule , is the warranty for the 8-year battery invalidated?

Varies by manufacturer. AFAIK There is no servicing schedule (or requirement) for a Tesla, for example. In my (Hyundai) case the battery lifespan isn't affected, but the rest of the 5-year warranty is. Servicing is ridiculously cheap and always includes renewal of the roadside assistance program (= AA) which renders it (kind of) cheaper still.

 

[Noddy]

…charge it at 77p/KWH (RAC figures) by Peterborough…

Ionity Peterborough (at the MSA) is currently 68p per kWh, so while not exactly cheap it’s a big difference from the quoted 77p. If you have a free Octopus Electroverse card (DM me for a sign up link) and are on their Intelligent Go tariff as I am it’s 63p per kWh at Ionity. While I don’t doubt that the average is 77p per kilowatt hour you won’t pay that if you’ve done even a modicum of planning. For example I’m paying: Ionity (63p), Westmorland (57p) and Applegreen (71p), which covers a range of motorway service area brands (Extra, Welcome Break and Westmorland) geographically spread across the UK and the prices are all far cheaper than 77p, despite their locations.

 

[paul1609]

Ionity Peterborough (at the MSA) is currently 68p per kWh, so while not exactly cheap it’s a big difference from the quoted 77p. If you have a free Octopus Electroverse card (DM me for a sign up link) and are on their Intelligent Go tariff as I am it’s 63p per kWh at Ionity. While I don’t doubt that the average is 77p per kilowatt hour you won’t pay that if you’ve done even a modicum of planning. For example I’m paying: Ionity (63p), Westmorland (57p) and Applegreen (71p), which covers a range of motorway service area brands (Extra, Welcome Break and Westmorland) geographically spread across the UK and the prices are all far cheaper than 77p, despite their locations.

As I understand it Intelligent go customers need one of a small range of chargers at home which can be remotely controlled by Octopus. They then get a 8% discount on the rates. That takes the Applegreen rate to the RACs average rate and I believe that some of the charging providers are a lot higher so the 77p RAC figure doesnt sound that unrealistic to me.
Personally as I dont have an EV Im on Octopus Agile which is for me is a huge saving because of the really low rates during the day. I can have an Octoverse account charged to my home energy account but as a very occasional user of EVs now its not worth it as i see it.

 

[jon0844]

Surely what matters is not the cost of public charging, but the average cost of charging over the long term use of your vehicle. Whilst I would baulk at paying 77p/kWh, if I was only doing it 4 times a year, for 10% of my annal mileage, and the rest was at (say) 12p/kwh, then the average at 4-6p a mile is still very attractive.

Yes, as I'm on Octopus Agile for electricity, I am looking at the total cost over the year. So far every single day has been cheaper than the standard rate, from as bad as just 1% to 90%!

I would be charging an EV at home 95% of the time, or even more. For one or two long trips, I'd expect to be fleeced but the high cost for those charges wouldn't really make much of a dent in the grand scheme of things.

Certainly for electricity, I've never yet paid more than the standard rate and I wouldn't hope to ever pay more for electricity even at a service station than the equivalent petrol price (especially at a service station petrol station!).

 

[paul1609]

Yes, as I'm on Octopus Agile for electricity, I am looking at the total cost over the year. So far every single day has been cheaper than the standard rate, from as bad as just 1% to 90%!

I would be charging an EV at home 95% of the time, or even more. For one or two long trips, I'd expect to be fleeced but the high cost for those charges wouldn't really make much of a dent in the grand scheme of things.

Certainly for electricity, I've never yet paid more than the standard rate and I wouldn't hope to ever pay more for electricity even at a service station than the equivalent petrol price (especially at a service station petrol station!).

Im also on Agile but I dont really use my car for short trips and only average around 5 to 8K miles per year of that I reckon something around 60% would need charging away. I cant see that a pure EV makes sense for me over a new HEV especially when you take in to account the extra leasing cost of the pure EV. I dont really see myself as an edge case either. I think there is a sizeable proportion of the population for who the pure ev makes no sense (yet?).

 

[Noddy]

As I understand it Intelligent go customers need one of a small range of chargers at home which can be remotely controlled by Octopus. They then get a 8% discount on the rates. That takes the Applegreen rate to the RACs average rate and I believe that some of the charging providers are a lot higher so the 77p RAC figure doesnt sound that unrealistic to me.
Personally as I dont have an EV Im on Octopus Agile which is for me is a huge saving because of the really low rates during the day. I can have an Octoverse account charged to my home energy account but as a very occasional user of EVs now its not worth it as i see it.

No Applegreen standard rate is 77p, the Electroverse price if you’re on Intelligent Go is 71p.

Intelligent Go works not just with a range of chargers, but also directly with a whole host of cars so you can bypass the charger issue if needed (say you only have a ‘dumb’ charger). For example I have a Zappi charger and a Cupra Born-currently on my setup Intelligent Go is controlled by the car (not the charger) but I could change it so it’s done via the charger if I want. And even if you can’t get Intelligent Go you can still get the standard Go rate which gives you a 5% rather than an 8% discount on Electroverse, so you’d be still be paying (at least 5%) less than the RAC figure.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's important to think in different terms. We need to unlearn what we've been used to in the liquid world (fill it up at a station, drive it, fill it up at a station, drive it, rinse and repeat). And relearn that we only do that when it's unavoidable.

To paraphrase my dear old mother (when talking about calls of nature whilst travelling):

“Charge when you can, not when you must”

 

[Peter Sarf]

Im also on Agile but I dont really use my car for short trips and only average around 5 to 8K miles per year of that I reckon something around 60% would need charging away. I cant see that a pure EV makes sense for me over a new HEV especially when you take in to account the extra leasing cost of the pure EV. I dont really see myself as an edge case either. I think there is a sizeable proportion of the population for who the pure ev makes no sense (yet?).

This would be me. Anything local is a walk or a bus. The whole of London is generally Bus & Train.

Granted for something heavy I might need the car.

It will be the occasional long journeys that will dominate my use.

So the existence of a fully depreciated EV will be the first thing I will have to wait for. Then a significant reduction in charging costs away from home especially as I don't have a drive. I reckon charging costs could well go down in a few years time as the capital costs are covered and competition (availability) ramps up.

TBF I am almost better of hiring when I need a car. Especially as the last camping trip was made easier by hiring a van !.

 

[jon0844]

Im also on Agile but I dont really use my car for short trips and only average around 5 to 8K miles per year of that I reckon something around 60% would need charging away. I cant see that a pure EV makes sense for me over a new HEV especially when you take in to account the extra leasing cost of the pure EV. I dont really see myself as an edge case either. I think there is a sizeable proportion of the population for who the pure ev makes no sense (yet?).

Vauxhall has just released a car at the same price for the hybrid as the pure EV, and as batteries get cheaper, you may find EVs actually being cheaper than cars needing all the extra equipment for the ICE.

 

[AM9]

This would be me. Anything local is a walk or a bus. The whole of London is generally Bus & Train.

Granted for something heavy I might need the car.

It will be the occasional long journeys that will dominate my use.

So the existence of a fully depreciated EV will be the first thing I will have to wait for. Then a significant reduction in charging costs away from home especially as I don't have a drive. I reckon charging costs could well go down in a few years time as the capital costs are covered and competition (availability) ramps up.

TBF I am almost better of hiring when I need a car. Especially as the last camping trip was made easier by hiring a van !.

You may find that the cost of ownership of an EV rises or even just stabilises whilst that totalcost of ownership of an IC vehicle rises, at which point many user ownership plans and journey patterns are less attractive sticking with what will soon be an obsolescent option.

 

[trebor79]

One of the advantages of living in the middle of the country is that you wouldnt need the range of somebody like myself who lives on the periphary. When I tried out a MG4 a couple of years ago on the Wittersham to Cockermouth family run it was already expecting me to pull in to charge it at 77p/KWH (RAC figures) by Peterborough (i did make it to Grantham in the End). Im not in the market for a new vehicle atm but if I was the cost of public charging would rule out an EV for me. The recent HEVs Ive driven are returning near 60 mpg on the long trips now without the enforced 40 min charging stops every 200 miles. The publically charged EV fuel cost is now over twice the price in pence per mile when compared to something like a Toyota or Dacia HEV. Thats kind of the jest I was making about EV drivers keeping to 50 mph to avoid paying for public charging. I should emphasise that Im not against EVs in any way, Ive had 2 Nissan Leafs as company cars but the Hybrid technology and practicality atm is just so much better.

A common misconception. Only yesterday someone said to me, looking at my Tesla "that must be terrible for you doing all those miles. Must takes ages to go anywhere".
Err, no actually. I need to stop for toilet etc more often than the cor needs to charge, and average rapid charge duration is 12 minutes, which is about as long as it takes to have a wee and buy a cup of tea.

Public charging is expensive yes but 90% of charging is at home for a tenth of the price.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Public charging is expensive yes but 90% of charging is at home for a tenth of the price.

This point keeps being trotted out, but it is of little help to those who live in a property where home charging will never be a viable option. If I owned an EV I'd have to use public chargers, so those rates would be the rates I'd have to pay. Yes, those prices are pretty similar to what I pay for fuel- but my car cost me £3,000 and gets me 400 miles (or 2-3 weeks) between each £55 refuelling. There's no used EV on the market that can compete on cost, let alone convenience.

 

[Noddy]

This point keeps being trotted out, but it is of little help to those who live in a property where home charging will never be a viable option. If I owned an EV I'd have to use public chargers, so those rates would be the rates I'd have to pay. Yes, those prices are pretty similar to what I pay for fuel- but my car cost me £3,000 and gets me 400 miles (or 2-3 weeks) between each £55 refuelling. There's no used EV on the market that can compete on cost, let alone convenience.

That is entirely true and understandable. However, slow AC charging isn’t as expensive as rapid DC. For example Ubitricity which operates 1000s of lamppost chargers in London and Liverpool and is expanding elsewhere. It charges 53p peak and 45p 23:00-06:00. Likewise Char.gy operate in a range of locations and seem to have more variable charging rates but those I’ve seen range from 35-59p. So don’t just assume because you’ll have to public charge you’ll be paying the RAC average of 77p. This last figure includes ripoff merchants like Instavolt, and ‘specialist’ networks like Porsche which now charges over £1 to the general public (presumably to keep them away!).