Railcard Penalty Fair Quesiton

[icecoldsquid]

Hi everyone I would appreciate your help with this.

-Travelled on TransPenine Express Hull to Leeds Service, on the 22nd August 2024, Departing Hull at 9:30am
-Ticket was an Advanced Single with 16-25 Railcard
-I had a vaild ticket for the TransPenine Express Service but forgot my railcard
-Ticket inspector on the train accepted my ticket with a photograph of my railcard
-However, at Leeds station a further ticket inspector explained to me he was required to issue a penalty fare as I did not have a physical railcard copy only a photograph- however he did explain that this could be successfully appealed by submitting a photograph of my railcard

I have appealed and received an apply saying it had been rejected- I will attach their letter.

I’ve sent in a re-appeal but do you think it will be rejected again?

After 21 days even if I’m still appealing does the penalty cost go up?

Should I just pay it even though it was an honest mistake and do have a valid railcard?

Thanks for your help so much.

J

 

[AlterEgo]

The appeal says you travelled with the wrong train operator? Is that correct? If not, doesn’t it confuse you why they have only mentioned this in their rebuttal to you?

Please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice, with your details redacted, as well as a copy of the tickets you used to travel.

 

[icecoldsquid]

Sure thing, and yes I did travel with the correct train company

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2024 ==

I thought so too that they said I travelled with the wrong company when I didn’t. Mentioned that in my reappeal.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The appeal says you travelled with the wrong train operator? Is that correct? If not, doesn’t it confuse you why they have only mentioned this in their rebuttal to you?

Does it actually say that? Reads to me that the Appeals Assessor is just clunkily saying that the ticket wasn't valid, which it likely wouldn't be without the OP being able to produce an accompanying valid, in date, railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does it actually say that? Reads to me that the Appeals Assessor is just clunkily saying that the ticket wasn't valid, which it likely wouldn't be without the OP being able to produce an accompanying valid, in date, railcard.

They do actually say that! In the rebuttal letter. It’s attached to the OP’s post.

I think they are confused because the Penalty Fare was issued by Northern, and the OP travelled with Transpennine.

 

[icecoldsquid]

Sure thing, and yes I did travel with the correct train company

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2024 ==

I thought so too that they said I travelled with the wrong company when I didn’t. Mentioned that in my reappeal.

Does it actually say that? Reads to me that the Appeals Assessor is just clunkily saying that the ticket wasn't valid, which it likely wouldn't be without the OP being able to produce an accompanying valid, in date, railcard.

I see if that’s the case do you think chances are I will have to pay the fine. I read on the railcard website that if you forget it once then most rail companies will forgive you first time, but is this the case in reality?

 

[AlterEgo]

I see if that’s the case do you think chances are I will have to pay the fine. I read on the railcard website that if you forget it once then most rail companies will forgive you first time, but is this the case in reality?

It is an actual policy which you should quote to them. Did you do so? The first appeal response is utterly confused. As it is you’re now two appeals down, but there is a third chance if the second one is also unsuccessful.

 

[icecoldsquid]

It is an actual policy which you should quote to them. Did you do so? The first appeal response is utterly confused. As it is you’re now two appeals down, but there is a third chance if the second one is also unsuccessful.

Ah I see thank you I didn’t quote it to them wish I had now. Do you know if whilst you appeal they pause the 21 days you have to pay the smaller fine or no?

Thanks

 

[Eyersey468]

Ah I see thank you I didn’t quote it to them wish I had now. Do you know if whilst you appeal they pause the 21 days you have to pay the smaller fine or no?

Thanks

Usually when you appeal something it stops the clock, I don't know for certain if that's the case with the railway but I'd be surprised if it isn't

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah I see thank you I didn’t quote it to them wish I had now. Do you know if whilst you appeal they pause the 21 days you have to pay the smaller fine or no?

Thanks

It does pause the 21 days, yes.

 

[furlong]

I would separately (as well as making another appeal) report that appeal response to Transport Focus and ask them to investigate.

The reason given is clearly inconsistent with the accurate "no railcard" reason on the Penalty Fare itself implying the regulations relating to the appeal were breached. If you asked me, the first appeal should be regarded as incomplete and redetermined within the original first appeal deadline. Fortunately the second appeal should be able to correct this trivially enough.

 

[transportphoto]

The appeal response sounds as if the assessor has seen it as a Northern Penalty Fare, with a TPE ticket, and not seen the wider picture.

 

[icecoldsquid]

I would separately (as well as making another appeal) report that appeal response to Transport Focus and ask them to investigate.

The reason given is clearly inconsistent with the accurate "no railcard" reason on the Penalty Fare itself implying the regulations relating to the appeal were breached. If you asked me, the first appeal should be regarded as incomplete and redetermined within the original first appeal deadline. Fortunately the second appeal should be able to correct this trivially enough.

Ah I see thank you for this everyone this has been extremely useful.

Would you please be able to provide the link to report that appeal to Transport Focus?

Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2024 ==

Thank you everyone I’ve contacted transport focus they are helping me take this further.

 

[Watershed]

I would appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was issued for the incorrect amount. It was issued for £125.30, which £100 plus the "Northern only" Anytime Day Single costing £25.30. However, the OP had travelled on TPE - on which such a fare would not be valid. Therefore the correct fare to use would be the "Any Permitted" Anytime Day Single costing £29.60.

It may seem bizarre to appeal a Penalty Fare for having been issued for an amount that is too low, but the Regulations specify how the amount of the Penalty Fare is to be calculated and Northern did not comply with this.

Furthermore, there is an official industry policy whereby forgotten Railcards should result in no further action, if a Railcard that was valid at the time of travel can later be produced. Technically speaking this involves paying for any new ticket or Penalty Fare you are issued with, and then getting this refunded by the relevant train company's customer services, but it seems unreasonable for the appeal not to simply be allowed on this basis (let alone for a Penalty Fare to be issued in the first place when photographic evidence can be shown).

Unfortunately this is far from the first time we have seen a poor response to a first-stage appeal. Clearly the assessor hasn't even bothered reading the appeal and documents properly, or they'd have realised there are discretionary and legal grounds for upholding the appeal.

For the OP's benefit, the 'clock' on the 21-day discounted period remains stopped during any period where a Penalty Fare is on appeal, be that a first, second or third stage (final) appeal. Furthermore, even if each of these appeals were to be unsuccessful, the Penalty Fare is now a civil matter. Having appealed the Penalty Fare (even unsuccessfully), Northern are legally not allowed to prosecute you in relation to this matter.

They have historically nevertheless broken the law by doing so - but they have been caught doing so, and the matter was brought to the government's attention. There was a Court hearing recently (see this thread) where this, and other irregularities with various train companies' prosecutions, were brought up. Northern finally admitted that prosecutions under the above circumstances were not lawful, and so you'd very much hope they won't get themselves into further trouble by continuing to bring new ones!

What I mean by this is that, even if the OP's three appeals remain unsuccessful (and we have seen evidence of appeals being successful at the third-stage appeals panels even if denied at the previous two stages on spurious grounds), this does not literally force the OP to pay. It means that they must decide whether they want to pay, or whether they want to take on the (IMHO small) risk of being taken to the County Court for a civil claim over the Penalty Fare. Given the circumstances you'd very much hope that Northern also wouldn't waste their and the Court's time doing so, given they have contractually agreed to reimburse the value of the Penalty Fare. I imagine a Judge would take a rather dim view of such a case.

 

[icecoldsquid]

I would appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was issued for the incorrect amount. It was issued for £125.30, which £100 plus the "Northern only" Anytime Day Single costing £25.30. However, the OP had travelled on TPE - on which such a fare would not be valid. Therefore the correct fare to use would be the "Any Permitted" Anytime Day Single costing £29.60.

It may seem bizarre to appeal a Penalty Fare for having been issued for an amount that is too low, but the Regulations specify how the amount of the Penalty Fare is to be calculated and Northern did not comply with this.

Furthermore, there is an official industry policy whereby forgotten Railcards should result in no further action, if a Railcard that was valid at the time of travel can later be produced. Technically speaking this involves paying for any new ticket or Penalty Fare you are issued with, and then getting this refunded by the relevant train company's customer services, but it seems unreasonable for the appeal not to simply be allowed on this basis (let alone for a Penalty Fare to be issued in the first place when photographic evidence can be shown).

Unfortunately this is far from the first time we have seen a poor response to a first-stage appeal. Clearly the assessor hasn't even bothered reading the appeal and documents properly, or they'd have realised there are discretionary and legal grounds for upholding the appeal.

For the OP's benefit, the 'clock' on the 21-day discounted period remains stopped during any period where a Penalty Fare is on appeal, be that a first, second or third stage (final) appeal. Furthermore, even if each of these appeals were to be unsuccessful, the Penalty Fare is now a civil matter. Having appealed the Penalty Fare (even unsuccessfully), Northern are legally not allowed to prosecute you in relation to this matter.

They have historically nevertheless broken the law by doing so - but they have been caught doing so, and the matter was brought to the government's attention. There was a Court hearing recently (see this thread) where this, and other irregularities with various train companies' prosecutions, were brought up. Northern finally admitted that prosecutions under the above circumstances were not lawful, and so you'd very much hope they won't get themselves into further trouble by continuing to bring new ones!

What I mean by this is that, even if the OP's three appeals remain unsuccessful (and we have seen evidence of appeals being successful at the third-stage appeals panels even if denied at the previous two stages on spurious grounds), this does not literally force the OP to pay. It means that they must decide whether they want to pay, or whether they want to take on the (IMHO small) risk of being taken to the County Court for a civil claim over the Penalty Fare. Given the circumstances you'd very much hope that Northern also wouldn't waste their and the Court's time doing so, given they have contractually agreed to reimburse the value of the Penalty Fare. I imagine a Judge would take a rather dim view of such a case.

Thank you for this very detailed and informative response I appreciate it.

I will keep this post updated with what happens next, so hopefully others in a similar situation can find it useful.