AlastairFraser
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Birkenhead dropped? What do you mean? I think I've been both Seacombe and the Hamilton Square ferry at least once or twice in the last few years.
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Why do ferry services not seem to work in the UK?
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that seems unlikely... Ham Square is quite a way inland, and the following says Woodside has been closed for a couple of years now: https://www.merseyferries.co.uk/blog/other/woodside-upgrade/
I'm please to read that it will be coming back into use!
AlastairFraser
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I meant the Woodside one - as I suspect you know, Hamilton Square station is a few minutes walk from the Woodside terminal.
Must have been on it just before the closure for refurbishment.
yes, but this is a railway forum, and given that Woodside was the GWR terminus and Ham Sq was a bit inland and on a completely different railway, it's quite reasonable to point out that they were not the same stations at all.I meant the Woodside one - as I suspect you know, Hamilton Square station is a few minutes walk from the Woodside terminal.
Must have been on it just before the closure for refurbishment.
Statto
Established Member
Nice to know Woodside is coming back into use, i thought Woodside had closed permanently, it's only closed for refurbishment.
John Luxton
Established Member
Probably not likely to reopen before 2026 when the Wirral Transport Museum and U Boat are also likely to reopen.
The transport museum and U boat having been sold off to Big Heritage CIC the same company that owns the Western Approaches Museum in Liverpool and a couple of museums in Chester.
Wirral Council has some big plans for a massive regeneration around Woodside in the coming years which go far beyond the ferry. The ferry stage could be enlarged as well.
Details can be found here: https://haveyoursay.wirral.gov.uk/w...de includes,and beverages, leisure and health.
As to how much is aspirational rather than definitely going to happen is anyones guess!
AlastairFraser
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I forgot there was even a Woodside station.
My excuse is that I was born long after it closed, I believe.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Too much of a push for it to be a tourist attraction than a viable mode of cross river transport. No multi modal tickets during the morning peak time, lack of attempting to push integration (If anything, making it less integrated thanks to Labour Liverpool Council closing Mann Island to local buses a few years ago). Merseyside Labour decreased the toll charges for locals too which doesn't help.
I'd hope the various house building projects will increase potential for both piers but I can't see there being any increased demand until such time that Mersey Ferries actually try and integrate to be part of the public transport network. It's useless for locals. Almost no one is going to pay £12.80 for a return using the ferry if they can instead get the bus for £4 (or train for not much more). Even if you happen to base it off the multi operator Saveaway (bus, train and single ferry crossings), that is £6.30. Not much of a price difference considering the novelty of using the ferry, that sounds good. Ooop no, you must visit a train station first to buy that ticket (for a paper version) or if you have a smartcard (which many don't), you need to got to a paypoint shop. While not specifically Mersey Ferries fault, it is the fault of Merseytravel, who own Mersey Ferries.
There is literally a huge stadium being built on the river banks but no pier so that they can run services for the football fans.
There is potential there, just Merseytravel are stuck in the stone ages and doesn't want to develop the ferry and refusing to adapt it's ticketing. Plus Mersey Ferries have no care for carrying locals across the river, they want just the tourists. Combine that with poor local authorities dragging their heels on building developments to generate nearby demand.
daodao
Established Member
That fare is misleading, as it is for the tourist excursion trips (Mon-Fri inter-peak and weekends).
The Mon-Fri peak period public transport service from Seacombe to Liverpool costs £2-90 single and £3-80 return for adults (half-price for children 5-18). These fares seem reasonable.
Mersey Ferries Direct Cross-river Service | Mersey Ferries
On this page you can see a complete list of Mersey Ferries direct cross-river service timetables and prices. Tickets available from Seacombe and Liverpool Gerry Marsden ferry terminals.
www.merseyferries.co.uk
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markymark2000
On Moderation
Granted the fare I quoted is for other Mon-Fri inter-peak and weekends however for the majority of the operating hours of the ferry, that is the fare charged. Work hours are much more fluid than they once were though with people starting later or finishing earlier. If you work hours don't match up to those commuter journeys, you will be paying a higher fare. Similarly those working at the weekend or shopping etc, they will get stung with the higher fare. If you live in Seacombe and want to go to Liverpool, you aren't a tourist, you are a local wanting to get from A-B. Why would you pay £12.80 on the ferry when the bus is £4 max.That fare is misleading, as it is for the tourist excursion trips (Mon-Fri inter-peak and weekends).
The Mon-Fri peak period public transport service from Seacombe to Liverpool costs £2-90 single and £3-80 return for adults (half-price for children 5-18). These fares seem reasonable.
Mersey Ferries Direct Cross-river Service | Mersey Ferries
On this page you can see a complete list of Mersey Ferries direct cross-river service timetables and prices. Tickets available from Seacombe and Liverpool Gerry Marsden ferry terminals.
I agree though, the fare is much more reasonable on those commuter journeys, you just have to hope that you want to travel 7.20-9.40am or 5pm-6.40pm Mon-Fri. The issue still remains though of no multi modal ticket which includes the morning peak ferry and the ticket. Given there are a few buses out of Seacombe, people could use the buses to get into Seacombe then use the ferry to cross the river. The 432 and 433 services are often quite busy and that proves that people are wanting to cross the river from these areas over to Liverpool. There is no a hope that you will convince anyone to use the ferry, outside of the commuter hours, because of the fare.
John Luxton
Established Member
I have thought for some time the operation of Mersey Ferries should be contracted out to an established independent operator. Dart Valley Railway appear to have great experience in operating pleasure steamers and ferries in South Devon on a commercial basis. The operator doesn't have to be local.
daodao
Established Member
The Mon-Fri inter-peak and weekend trips are not a public transport ferry service, but are advertised as a River Explorer cruise and take much longer than 8-9 minutes (applicable to the commuter ferry service) to travel from one side of the river to the other. I presume that this is a better use of the boat from a financial perspective than running a largely empty point-to-point ferry service at these times.
John Luxton
Established Member
Problem is with those river Explorer cruises during weekdays in the winter months they are very lighthly loaded. Often just Merseyside Travel Concessions going for a free ride. You can't stay on for the full round trip but have to alight and catch the next ferry or of one is quick at Liverpool there is usually time to walk to the ticket office and get the return sailing before departure if the jouney is commenced on the Wirral side. A Trio Ticket or a Saveaway Ticket are valid for single journeys under the same terms as the concessionary passes without the morning peak restrictions thus can be used by commuters. They can be cheaper than the advertised cruise fare.
The Dart Valley Co. are a tourist company operating seasonal tourist services. I know some of the management and employees. They wouldnt be able top operate Mersey ferries. Id suggest that based on Kent County Councils experience with the Gravesend to Tilbury ferry unless the local authority is prepared to underwrite the revenue risk or offer very generous subsidies they would have difficulty finding any private sector operator to take the service on.
John Luxton
Established Member
I was thinking of making the Mersey operation either seasonal only or weekends and seasonal. If there is a great desire for a weekday commuter ferry from Seacombe that could be financially underwritten by Mersey Travel.
Sadly for a usefuly means of transport I think the ship has well and truely sailed with the Mersey Ferries, they have been fighting a losing battle since the opening of the first road tunnel.
I'd agree that a more flexible commercial operator could be a good way to make the ferry more viable. The current vessels are far too large and expensive to operate for the transport element of the route. Something like the Dart Valley Railway's Kingswear Princess, operated by two crew with ample space for the numbers carried would be ideal to run the ferry service, with a larger cruise vessel like Dart Explorer running a cruise operation would be a pretty good combination that would be much more economical and fit for modern day.
eastend43
Member
I used to use the ferry as it worked out more convenient if I was using the car in the morning and could park at Seacombe and get the commuter service across. However, the the big thing stopping me now is the charge for parking at Seacombe since it was taken over by the Eureka! Science + Discovery Attraction. Parking for more than 6 hours costs £10.50. They have free parking for those who buy flexi (multi-trip) or season tickets for the ferry but I've not been that organised to ask about it and ended up just parking in a nearby street the last time. The flexi ticket looks to be quite good value (£15 for 10 journeys) and as part of "Mayor Steve Rotheram’s £13m investment in smart ticketing on Liverpool City Region public transport", it was promoted as the cheapest way of crossing the Mersey one way.
https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca....e-public-transport-cheaper-and-simpler-to-use
I'm not sure I understood the point about the same terms as concessionary passes applying to the Saveaway. Yes, the Trio can be used on the ferry at anytime, but I didn't think you could use a Saveaway (apart from on the 09.40 sailing as it's after 09.29). It used to be that if a return has been purchased, then it can be used on any river cruise to Seacombe later that day, which doesn't take that much longer (but only one an hour). The website makes it clear that the flexi tickets can't be used for that return journey, but I presume a normal return ticket could.
Woodside (when it opens again) is far more convenient for the return or as a single on the river cruise in the afternoon if I already had a Saveaway that day, but it doesn't operate during the commuter service. While it also didn't have free parking, it does have easier onward connections for me by bus (or on foot).
It does seem particularly annoying that you can't buy a Saveaway at Seacombe, Gerry Marsden (or Woodside) and I agree that, despite the introduction of the flexi ticket, there's not much incentive to use the ferry unless you are in walking distance of Seacombe or cycling.
markymark2000
On Moderation
You can't use Saveaway between 06:31 and 09:29 Mon-Fri [source]. Trio I suppose you can, I forgot about that one. It is a bit expensive though so you'd have to make a lot of use of it. £27 minimum as you would need a 2 zones ticket (Bus only ticket is £22 but is valid across Merseyside so you pay £5 extra for a smaller validity. It's value really depends on if you will be using the train as well)
100% agree. OR even like the new Uber Boat Canary Wharf - Hilton shuttle that they are proposing. Electric ferry built for short crossings, easy walk on, walk off with proper cycle spaces. Nothing fancy, just your bare minimum to get you over the river.
Saveaways can be used on River Explorer cruises but you must alight at another terminal, you can't do the full round trip (according to Merseytravel). That said, I've not seen tickets being checked on arrival so I presume that no checks are done to penalty fare those who do a round trip. It's all very confusing. You'd think a Labour ran combined authority, who often preaches about making public transport cheaper and easier to understand, would have gotten a grip on the ferry. Unless perhaps it's exempt because they make more money by overly confusing people and making it really hard to get Saveaway and other multi modal tickets!
John Luxton
Established Member
A new vessel is now on order from Cammell Laird based on the original designs. One can't go too lightweight on the Mersey as in certain tidal / wind conditions vessels can range considerably at their berths. About 10 days ago teh Isle of Man Steam Packet's MANANNAN arrived at thew new terminal and had to hold passengers on board for two hours due to movemet. Seacombe Ferry terminal is particularly prone to winds. Sometimes in certain conditions the ferries use the south berth with the conventional gangway. There have been two previous experiments with smaller lighter vessels. I seem to recall reading that Wallsey Ferries did buy an ex MoD Fairmile D WALLASEY BELLE to run services at quieter times in 1949. It wasn't a success being a lightweight and only operated for one season being sold around 1953. In 1982 another trial with a lightweight vessel was undertaken with Western Ferries HIGHLAND SEABIRD on charter, again that had the same problems as WALLASEY BELLE 30 years earlier. Whilst I suggested an operator such as DVR running the ferries I wasn't suggesting the vessels used in the ore sheltered waters of the Dart and Torbay would be suitable for the Mersey in all weather conditions.
I'm not necessarily saying those exact vessels, but I do think they've made a mistake commissioning more of the same. The Mersey isn't that exposed, and a well designed modern vessel with appropriate terminals should have no problem coping with the conditions - perhaps something more like Solent Cruises' Ali Cat for example. 250 passengers, small, nimble stable catamaran, designed for crossing the far rougher waters of the solent.
John Luxton
Established Member
The Mersey in full flood with strong to north westerly winds which blow straight up the estuary can be pretty formidible. ALI CAT is just another version of HIGHLAND SEABIRD. I have been in and out of the Solent a few times with Red Funnel and on the odd cruise ship the characteristics of that area are rather different to the Mersey the Mersey has the second highest tidal range in the British Isles. 4m to just over 10m. What is more the mouth of the Mersey is quite narrow between New Brighton and Birkenhead before widening considerably a few miles in land. Thus a considerable amount of water has to go through a bottle neck. Add to that any wind and that is what makes it quite turblulent. I know the solent has more complex tides compared to other locations but the range does not seem to be as great plus the IoW provides a natural wind break.
Peter Wilde
Member
Recently used the Thames Clipper service, and was a little surprised:
Choice of staying with the masses in a claustrophobic commutercan-style cabin with poor views through the dirty windows; or cramming onto the very small open stern deck. The latter was good on a sunny day, exciting at speed, but at the downside of huge engine noise and clattering vibrations. That got tedious after ten or so stops;
The ships can go very fast through the water but large amounts of time are lost at the frequent stops, where the crew have to tie ropes to mooring bollards, deploy a boarding ramp, and then wait for long queues of passengers to file on and off;
Timetabling might be difficult as there are probably big variations in patronage (many more on nice sunny days) making it hard to allow the right amounts of time for loading and unloading. Time was also sometimes lost due to waiting in midstream for other ships to leave enough mooring space at piers.
I left wondering if this service is a too-uneasy compromise between the 2 functions of providing a scenic cruise and providing a commuter service. For the tourists, the Clipper service is cheap; but a slower but less frequently stopping service on purpose-built tour ships with better visibility would be preferable. For the commuters, the Clippers are expensive and on some routes slow, compared to alternative modes like the Tube.
Choice of staying with the masses in a claustrophobic commutercan-style cabin with poor views through the dirty windows; or cramming onto the very small open stern deck. The latter was good on a sunny day, exciting at speed, but at the downside of huge engine noise and clattering vibrations. That got tedious after ten or so stops;
The ships can go very fast through the water but large amounts of time are lost at the frequent stops, where the crew have to tie ropes to mooring bollards, deploy a boarding ramp, and then wait for long queues of passengers to file on and off;
Timetabling might be difficult as there are probably big variations in patronage (many more on nice sunny days) making it hard to allow the right amounts of time for loading and unloading. Time was also sometimes lost due to waiting in midstream for other ships to leave enough mooring space at piers.
I left wondering if this service is a too-uneasy compromise between the 2 functions of providing a scenic cruise and providing a commuter service. For the tourists, the Clipper service is cheap; but a slower but less frequently stopping service on purpose-built tour ships with better visibility would be preferable. For the commuters, the Clippers are expensive and on some routes slow, compared to alternative modes like the Tube.
Fragezeichnen
Member
The Hamburg ferries manage fine with no ropes and an automated ramp - however they don't have to content with the formidable tidal flow of the Thames.
I don't see what actually moors them... nothing but GPS and propulsion?
The tidal range is no problem if they only serve pontoons, in which case I wonder whether there is any possibility of beefing up the smart loading ramp so much that it can use a single bollard to secure the boat, giving enough hold to cope with the river flow?
markymark2000
On Moderation
The mooring/boarding situation with Thames Clipper seems to vary. Sometimes they fully moor up and use both ramps, sometimes they only moor the front or rear and then use a single ramp (often with no consistency on whether front or rear is used), other times I have been on them and they have slowed down for a pier, checked if anyone was there, then continued if they don't see anyone. The latter used more at nights.
The queues for the Clipper aren't helped by single file ramps (wider ramps may speed things up slightly) and slow Oyster readers which are often set just to the side too, so it's not a quick tap and go situation.
Thames Clipper suffers from a godawfully complex timetable. The 'routes' are useless as almost every single trip calls at different piers, such as the RB6. And on Saturdays, the RB2 some trips stop at Westminster Pier, some don't. For the sake of an extra 2 minutes to the journey time, they could have a lovely and simple timetable. The clipper timetable couldn't be much worse if it was timetabled by First Groups new AI bus scheduling software!
Not helped by often TFL seemingly allocating minimal boarding spaces for Clipper. 1 space just isn't enough given the number of trips using some piers.
Clipper do what they want due to no competition and seeming lack of care for customers. Clipper clicked onto the fact that many people were using them as a cheap tourist ferry and so their fares are now expensive. Want to travel in the central zone, one way? £9 please! Absolute rip off. Sadly the tourist ferry operators haven't tried to welcome more types of travellers, (instead only wanting tourists) and so, as always happens with companies with no competition, they are generally nowhere near as good as they could/should be.
Clippers timetables are a mess, reliability can sometimes be really poor (Every time the Thames Barrier is up, Barking Riverside and Woolwich get abandoned, rather than keeping a ferry on the other side of the barrier to provide a basic shuttle, nope, you just get no service and the alternative transport modes aren't really there either (not exactly useful for passengers), sometimes lack of capacity. Too slow in some areas, I agree. Lack of updates on cancelled trips or late trips. Complex fare system where fares change quite a lot depending on where you buy your ticket (Oyster isn't always cheapest too which makes it even more confusing)
It's a network that is now seemingly operated just to rinse tourists and irregular travellers, rather than provide a lower priced, frequent, useful riverbus service.
The manual ramp will likely quicker, and being shore mounted, I know it was in Merseyside.
there are propulsion based station holding solutions , but it's generally for azipod or cycloid drive equipped vessels rather than the hullforms associated with the thames boats ( which i assume use conventional shft drives or waterjets +/- conventional bow and stern thrusters
I’m going back a bit here (2006 or so?), but I remember buying a laminated ticket for ten single journeys that they used to stamp on each trip for the princely sum of £24.50 (to commute from Blackfriars pier to Canary Wharf pier). Looked the other day how much a day return would cost and it was north of a score!
The "Bugeleisen" [Flatiron... look at the shape] ferries in Hamburg are great, and yes, certainly always used to be held in just by propulsion/thrust. The Germans seem to trust people not to fall in, or if they do, it was your fault for not paying attention (ditto being on the stairs whilst the boat is mooring). I think they may tie up with one rope at Landungsbrücken, simply because that's the biggest stop (or maybe just those that terminate there?). Not necessarily the most frequent, but a great way to see the city from the Elbe. Included in the regular day tickets, too. (Granted the bit down to Finkenwerder isn't exactly scenic, but I've done it a few times). Of course, there are tourist boats as well if you want commentary and all that palaver, which naturally cost more.
The ramp is actually very quick. Because it's controlled from the bridge, some crews even start lowering it before the back is quite tight against the pontoon. Were it a manual ramp, by the time you've got someone there, checked they are close enough and manually heaved it over, the time difference would be negligible, if not slower. In the video section around 2:14, I could ten seconds, five of which is ensuring closeness, five of which is for the ramp operation. That's perfectly reasonable - and as you also see, one gentleman tries to start walking the moment the ramp moves - this I have also seen!
Not sure that's entirely fair - they are a private company, after all, and I'm sure if TfL wanted them in the network directly, they could strongarm them into accepting travelcards - or indeed set up their own rival ferry service that doesn't masquerade as a tourist boat, which is essentially what these are in the offpeak periods, much as you suggest for the Mersey. However, there has been consolidation in recent years, and that might suggest there isn't the market for what you seek, but there is for what is offered.
I don't know how much the Thames Barrier being closed affects riverbus services, but I suspect if they could do what you suggest easily, they would already be doing it, and the fact they haven't is telling. If it's closed for flooding, why would you want a flat-bottomed vessel on the wrong side of the barrier, for starters!?!
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Basically.
It’s the same as the Shields Ferry, that doesn’t routinely moor with a rope either. They just move alongside the pontoon and drop the ramp.
If the Thames Clippers were a core part of London’s transport network then they would sit within London’s transport network.
As it is, the Thames Clippers are primarily a tourist service, and I really don’t see any issue with them charging fares which reflect that usage. If one doesn’t like the fares, don’t pay the fares. If everyone agrees and walks away then the fares will drop.
It’s very similar to the Mersey Ferries, which are also primarily a tourist service now. Regular commuters won’t travel on the ferry when Merseyrail is more frequent and more comfortable.
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