Chiltern - will they try to prosecute?

[hatsandcats]

Hello!

Today I got caught accidentally using an invalid ticket for transport on Chiltern Railways, so they made me pay a for an alternative ticket on the spot. (Not the point, but they overcharged me for the alternative ticket + it has shown up in my bank transaction details as the fare for a completely different journey.)

They didn't take down any of my details, however staff did scan my Trainline ticket.

1) Is it likely that they will retrieve my personal details from my Trainline account in order to send me a prosecution letter?

2) How long after the incident should I expect for the letter to arrive (if it does)?

 

[NorthernSystem]

Hi there,

It’s unlikely. If you’ve been spoken to and purchased a new ticket, then that would be classed as disposal of the issue and case closed. They wouldn’t refer your ticket down the line unless there was something further, in which case they wouldn’t have offered you a new ticket, and would have taken your details on the spot.

 

[hatsandcats]

Hi there,

It’s unlikely. If you’ve been spoken to and purchased a new ticket, then that would be classed as disposal of the issue and case closed. They wouldn’t refer your ticket down the line unless there was something further, in which case they wouldn’t have offered you a new ticket, and would have taken your details on the spot.

Hi, thank you for your response!

To be honest, I wouldn't be concerned about this (since I didn’t give my details at the time) if it wasn't for the fact that it was a very aggressive encounter. The revenue protection officers were rude and aggressive towards me (and other passengers on board), so I was rude back to them...

Since one of them had scanned the ticket and mentioned that it had my details on it, I was wondering whether they'd escalate the case further out of spite, which I suppose they could?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Cilhtern are one of the more robust train companies when it comes to revenue protection. If they have scanned your ticket then it is possible that they will audit your online ticket purchase history. If this indicates ticketing irregularities then they might contact you to ask you about them.

COme back here if you do get contacted and forum members will be happy to advise next steps.

 

[hatsandcats]

Welcome to the forum!

Cilhtern are one of the more robust train companies when it comes to revenue protection. If they have scanned your ticket then it is possible that they will audit your online ticket purchase history. If this indicates ticketing irregularities then they might contact you to ask you about them.

COme back here if you do get contacted and forum members will be happy to advise next steps.

Hi, thanks for the response!

Have they been known to retrieve personal details from tickets purchased via the Trainline, even if you paid a penalty fare on the spot?

I would also be keen to know what rights the revenue protection officers have to use on passengers? I was about to complete the transaction on my penalty fare, and asked what would happen if I didn't pay - one of the officers then started to carry out an arrest before a Chiltern Railways staff member deescalated the situation. Is that legal? Is there any documented success in passagers making a complaint against excessive force by revenue protection officers, or is that just likely to provoke them into trying to pin something else on you?

 

[Titfield]

From memory, and I dont think it was Chiltern, but we have seen cases where the instant matter has been resolved but then subsequently the passenger has received a letter enquiring about matters which have been drawn from an examination of the online ticket account(s) used by the passenger.

May I draw to your attention the Chiltern Railways Revenue Enforcement and Prosecutions Policy which outlines the behaviour you may expect from the revenue protection staff and what action you may take if you "feel you have not been treated politely and with respect"".

 

[Hadders]

Have they been known to retrieve personal details from tickets purchased via the Trainline, even if you paid a penalty fare on the spot?

If you've been sold a ticket for your journey then Chiltern cannot take any further action against you in respect of today's incident. What will your Trainline ticket purchase history show? Will it indicate you've travelled with invalid tickets on a regular basis?

I would also be keen to know what rights the revenue protection officers have to use on passengers? I was about to complete the transaction on my penalty fare, and asked what would happen if I didn't pay - one of the officers then started to carry out an arrest before a Chiltern Railways staff member deescalated the situation. Is that legal? Is there any documented success in passagers making a complaint against excessive force by revenue protection officers, or is that just likely to provoke them into trying to pin something else on you?

Was force used? If there's nothing incriminating on your Trainline history then by all means complain. If your Trainline history potentially shows irregularities then I would hold back for the time being.

 

[hatsandcats]

If you've been sold a ticket for your journey then Chiltern cannot take any further action against you in respect of today's incident. What will your Trainline ticket purchase history show? Will it indicate you've travelled with invalid tickets on a regular basis?


Was force used? If there's nothing incriminating on your Trainline history then by all means complain. If your Trainline history potentially shows irregularities then I would hold back for the time being.

Regarding the ticket
Understood, that's good to know for future reference! My Trainline ticket purchase history is 95% spotless and I regularly travel with valid tickets. (The other 5% are minor instances where I couldn't fathom them being able to prove anything untoward, especially since I've never been "caught" with an invalid ticket before. Most took place before 2020.)

A concern I have about the incident today is that they made me pay a penalty fare, but when I asked for a receipt of this they didn't provide me one. The only evidence I have is my bank statement, and juding by the bank statement, they overcharged me by inputting a fare for a completely different service, (GWR in fact).

Regarding the conduct of revenue protection staff
They were verbally aggressive to myself and other people on board. It's still not clear to me whether they have the right to arrest people, which is what they tried to do to me.

If it wasn't for my very minor and infrequent Trainline "irregularities" I would make a complaint. I even photographed the revenue protection officers before they approached me for evidence's sake because of their aggressive behaviour towards other passengers.


Hadders, I can see you are a long time member of this forum and have helped countless people. May I say a massive thank you for that!

 

[AlterEgo]

Regarding the conduct of revenue protection staff
They were verbally aggressive to myself and other people on board. It's still not clear to me whether they have the right to arrest people, which is what they tried to do to me.

They tried to arrest you? For what?

 

[hatsandcats]

They tried to arrest you? For what?

Hello. I honestly don't know exactly which is why I think it was aggressive and excessive.

All I did was ask what would happen if I didn't pay and asked if they were indeed Chiltern Railways staff since they weren't wearing uniform. That's when one of them mentioned the word arrest and began to carry one out before a station staff member intervened.

Regardless of whether it was justified or not, are the revenue protection officers allowed to carry out arrests?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello. I honestly don't know exactly which is why I think it was aggressive and excessive.

All I did was ask what would happen if I didn't pay and asked if they were indeed Chiltern Railways staff since they weren't wearing uniform. That's when one of them mentioned the word arrest and began to carry one out before a station staff member intervened.

Regardless of whether it was justified or not, are the revenue protection officers allowed to carry out arrests?

Any member of the public is allowed to arrest any person they reasonably suspect of committing a crime.

Revenue protection staff do have the right - even if it is very rarely used - to physically detain you.

 

[John R]

There are a couple of things that don't feel right about this encounter. If you were charged a Penalty Fare, as you say in #8, they are obliged to give you a receipt for that. Did you get anything for it, say a new ticket? And you say that your bank statement says GWR, yet you are sure that you were dealt with by Chiltern Railways staff. You say station staff were involved - so this was at a station, not on a train? If so, what station was it?

If you tell us what journey you were making (and on what journey), and what you were charged for the Penalty Fare, experts here will be able to tell whether it was the correct fare for that journey.

 

[hatsandcats]

Any member of the public is allowed to arrest any person they reasonably suspect of committing a crime.

Revenue protection staff do have the right - even if it is very rarely used - to physically

Right! Glad the incident was deescalated then.

There are a couple of things that don't feel right about this encounter. If you were charged a Penalty Fare, as you say in #8, they are obliged to give you a receipt for that. Did you get anything for it, say a new ticket? And you say that your bank statement says GWR, yet you are sure that you were dealt with by Chiltern Railways staff. You say station staff were involved - so this was at a station, not on a train? If so, what station was it?

If you tell us what journey you were making (and on what journey), and what you were charged for the Penalty Fare, experts here will be able to tell whether it was the correct fare for that journey.

Happy to provide further context.

I was travelling with an anytime single from MYB to B North, but didn't realise the train didn't call at High Wycombe, which was a splitsave condition of my ticket. I've never encountered a train on this route that didn't stop at High Wycombe before so I didn't even realise I should check that detail. It was an honest mistake, but appreciate there is no way of proving that.

The reason the encounter sounds confusing is because the revenue protection staff onboard only got round to dealing with me as we were pulling into the station. He was in the process of getting out the card reader as we both exited the train carriage. The rest of the encounter described happened as we walked off the train and onto the platform.

They never used the word Penalty Fare but just stated that I would be charged and presented me with the card reader. I waited for a receipt which they didn't end up providing me - I assume this event is on CCTV. I didn't know until going onto this forum after the incident that this is against proper procedure, otherwise I would have insisted on the receipt.

The fee was £38.90. The bank detail says "GWR BOURNE END TO BOURNE END".



P.S. I am fearful that providing this information on an open forum will be used against me somehow. I will likely delete the post after a couple of hours.

 

[John R]

Right! Glad the incident was deescalated then.

Happy to provide further context.

I was travelling with an anytime single from MYB to B North, but didn't realise the train didn't call at High Wycombe, which was a splitsave condition of my ticket. I've never encountered a train on this route that didn't stop at High Wycombe before so I didn't even realise I should check that detail. It was an honest mistake, but appreciate there is no way of proving that.

The reason the encounter sounds confusing is because the revenue protection staff onboard only got round to dealing with me as we were pulling into the station. He was in the process of getting out the card reader as we both exited the train carriage. The rest of the encounter described happened as we walked off the train and onto the platform.

They never used the word Penalty Fare but just stated that I would be charged and presented me with the card reader. I waited for a receipt which they didn't end up providing me - I assume this event is on CCTV. I didn't know until going onto this forum after the incident that this is against proper procedure, otherwise I would have insisted on the receipt.

The fee was £38.90. The bank detail says "GWR BOURNE END TO BOURNE END".



P.S. I am fearful that providing this information on an open forum will be used against me somehow. I will likely delete the post after a couple of hours.

£38.90 is the Anytime Day Single from Marylebone to Bicester North, so appears the correct fare. As you were not charged a £50 Penalty Fare (reduced from £100 for prompt payment) you weren't charged a Penalty Fare, just asked to pay for a new ticket for your journey. You should have been given that new ticket though.

 

[hatsandcats]

£38.90 is the Anytime Day Single from Marylebone to Bicester North, so appears the correct fare. As you were not charged a £50 Penalty Fare (reduced from £100 for prompt payment) you weren't charged a Penalty Fare, just asked to pay for a new ticket for your journey.

Hi John - thank you for the clarification. Since I wasn't provided with the receipt and the bank details didn't match the route, I was dubious. They also didn't apply my railcard (which they checked and knew to be valid), but let's not split hairs.

What are the following proceedings usually when they get you to pay for a new ticket for the journey? Going back to my original question, are they likely to pull my details from Trainline and contact me about prosecution? If they do the lack of receipt is making me concerned.

 

[AlterEgo]

What are the following proceedings usually when they get you to pay for a new ticket for the journey?

Likely none, as you have now paid the correct fare for the journey.