Fined for wrong railcard

[mikeop]

Hey everyone,

I could really use some advice. I got a penalty today (03/09/2024) at Folkestone Central (SouthEastern Railway Network) for using the wrong type of railcard.

Here’s what happened:

I was on the 17:46 train from Folkestone West to Folkestone Central. As I was getting off, the Ticket Inspector checked my ticket. The ticket was a open return from Folkestone West to Folkestone Central. then the inspector asked for my railcard. I presented my 16-25 Railcard, but then he pointed out that my ticket was actually bought with a 16-17 Railcard. That’s when it hit me—I’d accidentally picked the wrong railcard option when buying my ticket in the morning. I was in a rush and didn’t notice.

I usually commute daily with a 16-25 Railcard, and this was a genuine mistake. I’ve got past tickets showing that I always use the correct railcard, so this was just a one-off slip-up.

What I’ve done so far:

I’ve written submitted an appeal to the Penalty Services Team, explaining the situation and apologizing for the mistake. I also attached my 16-25 Railcard and copies of my tickets from 19th August to 30th August to show that I’ve consistently used the correct railcard in the past.

My Question:

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Did you manage to get the penalty reconsidered? I’m hoping they’ll see it was an honest mistake, but any tips or experiences would be really helpful!

Thanks a lot!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Were you issued with a Penalty Fare - ie £100 plus the fare discounted to £50 plus the fare if paud within 21 days or were you issued with a Ticket Irregularity Report?

Can you post a copy of what you were given in this thread but do cover up any personal details and case reference numbers before doing so.

 

[mikeop]

I was given the Penalty Fare ie £100 plus the fare discounted to £50 + fare - I have attached it below.
Also what I think is I have good chances since I have provided evidence of past tickets from past 2 weeks of me using my railcard.
It's basically of PDF of tickets demonstrating my proper railcard usage (attached)
do you think this works as an evidence to strengthen my appeal?

 

[Hadders]

The inspector was correct to issue a Penalty Fare. There's nothing to stop you appealing (there are advantages to doing so) but I wouldn't expect your appeal to succeed. It's a bit like getting done for speeding - proving you don't normally drive too fast isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid. My advice is to pay the Penalty Fare and chalk it up to experience.

There might be sone very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare might be invalid. I'll leave others to advise of this but Penalty Fares can only be issued if strict rules are followed - one of these is a very specifi form of signage must be in place at the station where you start you journey. Many stations are not complaint with this, I do not know the situation at Folkestone West.

 

[mikeop]

ahaa, i agree the inspector is right for giving a penalty but I’ve submitted an appeal to mitigate the penalty appealing it’s a one time mistake due to human error since I presented a ticket from departure to destination station and also held a 16-25 railcard.

I mean what’s the point of the appeal system if it can’t account of a mere “once in a long time” human error?

 

[Hadders]

It's too late now, although there is a 2nd and 3rd stage appeal but I'd recommend trying to show how the error happened.

For example, are all the railcards listed such that '16-17' and '16-25' are next to each other on you ticket purchasing app.
If so then you can say it's easy to inadvertently select the wrong one on a mobile phone screen
That you made an administrative error and consewuently will then consider cancelling the Penalty Fare
Tell them that you would be happy to pay the outstanding difference in fares

I took this approach recently when I was given a parking ticket. I'd inadvertently keyed the wrong location code into the parking app and paid the correct sum of money, to the same local council but to park a couple of streets away. I detailed this in a short, polite letter asking if they would consider cancelling the Penalty Charge Notice. To my considerable surprise they did cancel it.

The problem is, your dealing with the railway....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@mikeop. Welcome to the forum. Suggest that you chalk this one up to experience. The penalty fare issued seems appropriate given that you travelled using a ticket which had a greater railcard discount than the one that you were entitled to claim and was therefore invalid. Don't reckon you have any valid grounds to appeal. Suggest you settle up whilst the amount to pay is just £52.90.

P.S. You've not been fined, although it might seem like it. Only courts impose fines. You've merely been penalty fared.

 

[mikeop]

You’re right @Hadders - I can appeal in 2nd appeal as the 16-17 Railcard and 16-25 Railcard are next to each other in the ticketing app(screenshot attached) and imagine you’re rushing to catch the train in the morning and you just purchase the tickets during this rush. About the fare difference, I told the inspector - I’m happy to pay the difference on spot when he brought this error but he refused.

I don’t know how lenient SouthEastern is but still worth a try to appeal

 

[MotCO]

ahaa, i agree the inspector is right for giving a penalty but I’ve submitted an appeal to mitigate the penalty appealing it’s a one time mistake due to human error since I presented a ticket from departure to destination station and also held a 16-25 railcard.

I mean what’s the point of the appeal system if it can’t account of a mere “once in a long time” human error?

Unfortunately the 16-25 and 16-17 railcards offer different discounts, and 'once in a long time' is not a valid excuse. The ticket inspector saw you did not have a valid ticket, but did not know if it was a one-off or repeat offence.

One thing to note is that with a 16-25 railcard, all journeys made between 4:30am and 10:00am Monday to Friday have a minimum fare of £12 (except for Juy and August), so if you commute in the morning on this short journey, you cannot use this card.

With regards to the Penalty Fare, I note that the reason given is "No Supporting Documentation"; can I ask the forum experts if this is a valid reason for selecting the wrong railcard?

 

[mikeop]

The ticket inspector saw you did not have a valid ticket, but did not know if it was a one-off or repeat offence.

If it helps anything I did show the inspector my previous tickets on spot which had the 16-25 railcard usage so he knew it wasn’t a repeated offence after looking at my previous tickets

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If it helps anything I did show the inspector my previous tickets on spot which had the 16-25 railcard usage so he knew it wasn’t a repeated offence after looking at my previous tickets

That quite possibly has resulted in you not having been issued with a Ticket Irregularity Report (usual cost = £100 with no prompt payment discount) as well as being requested to pay the full anytime day single fare for each and every previous journey made with inappropriately discounted tickets. Still seems that the Penalty Fare which was issued was correct and appropriate for the occasion when you were stopped.

 

[MotCO]

If it helps anything I did show the inspector my previous tickets on spot which had the 16-25 railcard usage so he knew it wasn’t a repeated offence after looking at my previous tickets

I'm not sure it does. For whatever reason, the inspector could have shown discretion but chose not to. It does seem a bit petty when the full fare was only £2.90, and the loss of revenue was £1.45, but the fact is is that you did not have a valid ticket and the inspector exercised his right to Penalty Fare you.

 

[mikeop]

P.S. You've not been fined, although it might seem like it. Only courts impose fines. You've merely been penalty fared.

@Mcr Warrior my bad - I am encountering such a situation for the first time and am not quite knowledgeable on the difference between “court-fine” or “penalty-fare-fine”

 

[38Cto15E]

I know the law is the law, but this seems very harsh for a £1.90 fare, especially so when many train tickets to the area charge the same fare for Folkestone West or Folkestone Central.

 

[John R]

Unfortunately the 16-25 and 16-17 railcards offer different discounts, and 'once in a long time' is not a valid excuse. The ticket inspector saw you did not have a valid ticket, but did not know if it was a one-off or repeat offence.

One thing to note is that with a 16-25 railcard, all journeys made between 4:30am and 10:00am Monday to Friday have a minimum fare of £12 (except for Juy and August), so if you commute in the morning on this short journey, you cannot use this card.

With regards to the Penalty Fare, I note that the reason given is "No Supporting Documentation"; can I ask the forum experts if this is a valid reason for selecting the wrong railcard?

And note that this week is the first week where the £12 minimum kicks in again after the summer break. So the difference in fare is more material than between a third and half reduction if used before 10am.

 

[Gloster]

@Mcr Warrior my bad - I am encountering such a situation for the first time and am not quite knowledgeable on the difference between “court-fine” or “penalty-fare-fine”

As nobody else has answered this. A court fine is one imposed by a court of law after a hearing or guilty plea in or the the court. A penalty fare is that: it is not in the legal sense a fine, which can only be imposed by a court. The word ’fine’ is often loosely used, but in railway terms should only be applied to those applied by the court. The penalty fare is just that, a penalty, although it feels like a fine. (I hope that this, originally intended to be short and clear explanation, is understandable.)

 

[furlong]

"I’d accidentally picked the wrong railcard option when buying my ticket in the morning. I was in a rush and didn’t notice."

So how did this accident come about?
Did you notice the price was different from what you normally paid? How did you react?

Was this from a ticket machine or ticket office at the station or an app or website - which one? An e-ticket or a physical one?
What time was this? Are we right to assume you started at Folkestone Central in the morning and the Penalty Fare was issued at the end of your return journey in the evening?

 

[30907]

And note that this week is the first week where the £12 minimum kicks in again after the summer break. So the difference in fare is more material than between a third and half reduction if used before 10am.

And at the very first opportunity afterwards the OP stops using their 16-25 (which would have charged the full rate) and switches to 16-17. You can see why it looks deliberate, sorry.