Why is Merseyrail so heavily staffed?

[Tazi Hupefi]

Is there a comparison to the subsidy given to other networks though?

Table 7223 on the ORR Rail Statistics site has useful information for this.

Merseyrail's staff bill is £60m a year across the board, which is the same as Chiltern, and £20m more than c2c.

Merseyrail's "net subsidy" is £122million per year, compared to £62m at c2c, £20m at Chiltern, £85m at LNER and £166m for the Elizabeth line (others available).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Table 7223 on the ORR Rail Statistics site has useful information for this.

Merseyrail's staff bill is £60m a year across the board, which is the same as Chiltern, and £20m more than c2c.

Merseyrail's "net subsidy" is £122million per year, compared to £62m at c2c, £20m at Chiltern, £85m at LNER and £166m for the Elizabeth line (others available).

Thank you, that data is very enlightening. So it beats a comparable regional commuter rail system (the Elizabeth Line) on subsidy.

 

[43066]

Thank you, that data is very enlightening. So it beats a comparable regional commuter rail system (the Elizabeth Line) on subsidy.

Presumably it would compare relatively unfavourably in terms of subsidy per passenger journey due to the EL’s enormous usage, though.

That said I tend to agree; a little hard to understand why people are worrying their heads about staffing levels. Suggesting fares would be lower if they culled staff numbers is fairly laughable. I’m also not at all sure nebulous arguments around value for money for the tax payer stack up when you look at the wastage in other areas (as per the IEP example above - and there are others).

 

[urbophile]

And like the staff at Piccadilly 13/14, they provide few benefits, get in the way and get peoples' backs up by shouting at them.

It's really not a very good solution anywhere - passive design is better than active design. There are things that could be changed at Central to make crowding less of an issue, such as changing the stopping position of 4-car trains so they don't overlap the escalators.

I don't doubt that platform staff at Central might occasionally shout at passengers, but I have never experienced it. However, I have frequently seen staff giving helpful support and advice both to individuals and passengers as a whole. The Northern line platform at Central is a design nightmare, but even were it improved you would still need staff to deal with the crowds. Especially since such a large proportion of them are gormless and appear to have no idea how to behave in such an environment.

There are two upward-bound escalators and 90% of people head to one of them. This might be, as Bletchleyite says, because of the stopping pattern of the trains; but many people get off much nearer the northernmost one and make straight for the other. At least there are now two lifts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't doubt that platform staff at Central might occasionally shout at passengers, but I have never experienced it. However, I have frequently seen staff giving helpful support and advice both to individuals and passengers as a whole. The Northern line platform at Central is a design nightmare, but even were it improved you would still need staff to deal with the crowds. Especially since such a large proportion of them are gormless and appear to have no idea how to behave in such an environment.

Platform staff there are a recent innovation, and I'm not sure a positive one.

There are two upward-bound escalators and 90% of people head to one of them. This might be, as Bletchleyite says, because of the stopping pattern of the trains; but many people get off much nearer the northernmost one and make straight for the other. At least there are now two lifts.

Though the second one blocks valuable waiting space. The whole thing really is very unsatisfactory.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Presumably it would compare relatively unfavourably in terms of subsidy per passenger journey due to the EL’s enormous usage, though.

That said I tend to agree; a little hard to understand why people are worrying their heads about staffing levels. Suggesting fares would be lower if they culled staff numbers is fairly laughable. I’m also not at all sure nebulous arguments around value for money for the tax payer stack up when you look at the wastage in other areas (as per the IEP example above - and there are others).

Merseyrail's subsidy per passenger was approx. £4.31 in 2023-2024 financial year (£122 million, divided by 28.3 million passengers).
On the other hand, EL's subsidy per passenger in the same time period was approx. £0.79 (£166 million, divided by 210 million passengers).
So not too bad, and will continue decreasing as the new trains bed in I'd think.

 

[whoosh]

I'm quite surprised just how many people believe ticket prices will fall if there was less or no staff.

Yeah you could say the subsidy would be reduced, but that money will be diverted elsewhere in reality.

Probably diverted to repairing shelters, seating, and putting right other vandalism.

So true. They know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

Exactly. What would be the cost without them there? Could you actually put a figure on it? All things considered would it save as much as you'd think?

 

[mrd269697]

Maybe I’m a bit biased, but the people I spoke to were very concerned when the government were looking at closing ticket offices a couple of years ago (even if it didn’t affect us). Obviously in a few years we won’t be seeking tickets the conventual way, but I think it’s very important to keep them staffed and I think that’s a good thing. It makes passengers feel safe, especially lone women, we are also there to provide travel information, give updates in times of disruption (and order taxis in exceptional circumstances), plus we also change posters, change bin bags, litter pick, grit the stations, blow leaves, provide assistance to disabled (visually impaired still need assistance even with new 777 stock).

The amount of people at busier stations on our network who approach the window for reasons other than buying tickets is very high.

Anyone who thinks shutting them all will result in lower fares is crazy. You know that will never happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2024 ==

This thread title should be “why is almost everywhere except merseyrail so understaffed”.

Agreed!

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if some of that money would be better spent on keeping 4tph running for longer, especially at weekends when trains can be uncomfortably overcrowded when it drops to 2tph (doesn't help that Merseyrail weren't sensible to order fixed formation 120 metre stock).

 

[stuu]

Merseyrail's subsidy per passenger was approx. £4.31 in 2023-2024 financial year (£122 million, divided by 28.3 million passengers).
On the other hand, EL's subsidy per passenger in the same time period was approx. £0.79 (£166 million, divided by 210 million passengers).
So not too bad, and will continue decreasing as the new trains bed in I'd think.

Are you mixing years? The EL made a surplus of £78m in 2023/4. The deficit was the previous year, before it had fully opened.

 

[urbophile]

Maybe I’m a bit biased, but the people I spoke to were very concerned when the government were looking at closing ticket offices a couple of years ago (even if it didn’t affect us). Obviously in a few years we won’t be seeking tickets the conventual way, but I think it’s very important to keep them staffed and I think that’s a good thing. It makes passengers feel safe, especially lone women, we are also there to provide travel information, give updates in times of disruption (and order taxis in exceptional circumstances), plus we also change posters, change bin bags, litter pick, grit the stations, blow leaves, provide assistance to disabled (visually impaired still need assistance even with new 777 stock).

The amount of people at busier stations on our network who approach the window for reasons other than buying tickets is very high.

Anyone who thinks shutting them all will result in lower fares is crazy. You know that will never happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2024 ==


Agreed!

Yes I agree. But like guards (or whatever they are called these days) who rarely emerge from their cab, staff who never leave their offices and without other roles to play are less than ideal. A busy station should have at least one person in the ticket office and others patrolling public areas; less busy ones should have at least two staff (for mutual support) to provide support and reassurance to passengers. A solitary member of staff might be wise on safety grounds to stay in the office, and exceptionally that might have to suffice. But especially considering many Merseyrail stations (not just the underground ones) have a ticket office and platforms on different levels, a regular (not necessarily constant) staff presence at platform level should be the norm. That would probably mean increasing the wages bill rather than cutting it.

 

[mrd269697]

Yes I agree. But like guards (or whatever they are called these days) who rarely emerge from their cab, staff who never leave their offices and without other roles to play are less than ideal. A busy station should have at least one person in the ticket office and others patrolling public areas; less busy ones should have at least two staff (for mutual support) to provide support and reassurance to passengers. A solitary member of staff might be wise on safety grounds to stay in the office, and exceptionally that might have to suffice. But especially considering many Merseyrail stations (not just the underground ones) have a ticket office and platforms on different levels, a regular (not necessarily constant) staff presence at platform level should be the norm. That would probably mean increasing the wages bill rather than cutting it.

I take your points, but I must add that on the new 777 fleet, guards (now called ‘Train Managers’ do not go in the cab unless in an emergency, and are in the train for the whole journey.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Are you mixing years? The EL made a surplus of £78m in 2023/4. The deficit was the previous year, before it had fully opened.

Ah, I was assuming the subsidy figures given were from the 23/24 financial year too. Do you have the net subsidy figure for Merseyrail in 23/24?

 

[karlbbb]

I take your points, but I must add that on the new 777 fleet, guards (now called ‘Train Managers’ do not go in the cab unless in an emergency, and are in the train for the whole journey.

Over the last few months of being on the trains most weekdays, I've seen a few TMs going into the cab when there is a longer gap between stations. Not all, but a few.

 

[stuu]

Ah, I was assuming the subsidy figures given were from the 23/24 financial year too. Do you have the net subsidy figure for Merseyrail in 23/24?

No, Merseytravel don't appear to have released their annual report yet

 

[Krokodil]

Table 7223 on the ORR Rail Statistics site has useful information for this.

Merseyrail's staff bill is £60m a year across the board, which is the same as Chiltern, and £20m more than c2c.

Merseyrail's "net subsidy" is £122million per year, compared to £62m at c2c, £20m at Chiltern, £85m at LNER and £166m for the Elizabeth line (others available).

It's a shame that the tables don't include T&W or Metrolink as those are more relevant comparators for this.

Over the last few months of being on the trains most weekdays, I've seen a few TMs going into the cab when there is a longer gap between stations. Not all, but a few.

Merseyrail expecting them to be present for every second of the journey is a bit daft to be honest. As long as regular patrols are done.

 

[WirralLine]

I take your points, but I must add that on the new 777 fleet, guards (now called ‘Train Managers’ do not go in the cab unless in an emergency, and are in the train for the whole journey.

They're not supposed to go in the cab unless in an emergency, but in reality a large number of them come out to tap the fob when station duties are complete, then hide in the cab inbetween stations. Something I've noticed a lot lately.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm not sure how it effects the "Net Subsidy" value that the ORR records, but something like 35% of Merseyrail passengers don't pay anything at all - they use their Merseytravel issued national concessionary bus pass (OAP/Disabled) for free travel. I believe a non-national version of this pass is also issued to people over the age of 60, who aren't quite yet entitled to the national version.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I believe a non-national version of this pass is also issued to people over the age of 60, who aren't quite yet entitled to the national version.

You believe correctly, (I have one and it's well utilised)!

Also valid on buses and ferries in the 'Merseytravel' area.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure how it effects the "Net Subsidy" value that the ORR records, but something like 35% of Merseyrail passengers don't pay anything at all - they use their Merseytravel issued national concessionary bus pass (OAP/Disabled) for free travel. I believe a non-national version of this pass is also issued to people over the age of 60, who aren't quite yet entitled to the national version.

Ah OK, so similar to the TfL scheme?

 

[childwallblues]

Merseyrail's subsidy per passenger was approx. £4.31 in 2023-2024 financial year (£122 million, divided by 28.3 million passengers).
On the other hand, EL's subsidy per passenger in the same time period was approx. £0.79 (£166 million, divided by 210 million passengers).
So not too bad, and will continue decreasing as the new trains bed in I'd think.

You talk about subsidy being £4.31 per head but how is this calculated? I am am aware that there are gatelines at the main stations but how would they record a passenger from say Seaforth & Litherland going to Fazakerley for the hospital and changing at Sandhills who has a Merseytravel pensioners pass?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

You thalk about subsidy beng £4.31 per head but how is this calculated? I am am aware that there are gatelines at the main stations but how would they record a passenger from say Seaforth & Litherland going to Fazkerley for the hospital and changing at Sandhills who has a Merseytrave pensioners pass?

All trains now have very good sensors for calculating loads. Some TOCs (especially in London) also use CCTV overlaid with modern AI to assist.

They also use LENNON and other sales data.

This is all combined/verified using fairly strict specimen census/counts - over the course of a few days per year, per TOC, often using pensioners, students etc with a bit of time to spare - who then manually count passengers and audit/survey tickets. These are often known as DfT Green Book Counts. Some TOCs also carry out their own in addition to the DfT official ones.

Passenger counting is one area the Industry has become very good at - mainly because it's critical nowadays from a revenue management system perspective and directly affects your pricing algorithms, and therefore your income.

 

[matt_world2004]

Because the value of having a staff member on every station far exceeds the cost of having that staff member on every station.

There is a reason why the first thing TfL did when they took over Silverlink Metro was put a staff member on every single station. And they have kept every station staffed. Even Emerson Park is staffed.

Compare Merseyrail to, say, the Tyne and Wear Metro. The Metro is pretty much feral in parts of the system whereas Merseyrail isn’t, even in the roughest bits of Liverpool.

Point of order Emerson park station isn't staffed but they have a customer service assistant on the train riding between romford and upminster

 

[Tetchytyke]

Point of order Emerson park station isn't staffed

When I went through in February they had a man sitting in the booth on the platform there.

 

[3rd rail land]

When I went through in February they had a man sitting in the booth on the platform there.

Same when I used the station in July 2023. Must be a really dull job as there can't be much work to do at such a tiny station but I digress.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Must be a really dull job

It's fair to say he looked absolutely bored witless when I went through!

 

[matt_world2004]

Same when I used the station in July 2023. Must be a really dull job as there can't be much work to do at such a tiny station but I digress.

I went through during August 2023 and there was no one there

Mayor hails transformed services as TfL takes West Anglia routes

Liverpool Street to Shenfield stopping services become part of TfL Rail

tfl.gov.uk

On the Upminster to Romford service a member of staff will travel on the train between Romford and Emerson Park to ensure someone is available to assist passengers during hours of operation. Staff will also be available at Upminster and Romford stations from first to last train.

This seems to indicate that emerson park would be unstaffed, I don't even think there are the legally required facilities there for the station to be staffed (Eg toilets and changing facilities)

 

[3rd rail land]

Mayor hails transformed services as TfL takes West Anglia routes

Liverpool Street to Shenfield stopping services become part of TfL Rail

tfl.gov.uk

This seems to indicate that emerson park would be unstaffed, I don't even think there are the legally required facilities there for the station to be staffed (Eg toilets and changing facilities)

Working at a station with limited footfall such as Emerson Park must be the dullest job ever. You are literally just hanging around doing little work, as there isn't much to be doing, just because the station operator has pledged to staff all their stations.

Does this approach deter anti-social behaviour or crime? Does it make people more inclined to use the service as they feel safer due to the member of staff being present? If the answer is no to all these questions then you might as well leave the lesser used stations unstaffed and use the money on other things on the network.

 

[43066]

Working at a station with limited footfall such as Emerson Park must be the dullest job ever. You are literally just hanging around doing little work, as there isn't much to be doing, just because the station operator has pledged to staff all their stations.

But from what’s been written above the station isn’t permanently staffed; there’s a roving staff member covering several locations.

Emerson Park also has circa. 250,000 people per year using it. Not many for London, granted, but a lot busier than some Merseyrail locations!

Does this approach deter anti-social behaviour or crime? Does it make people more inclined to use the service as they feel safer due to the member of staff being present? If the answer is no to all these questions then you might as well leave the lesser used stations unstaffed and use the money on other things on the network.

The answer would appear to be “yes” based on what happened in London.

The point being made in pose #31 above was that if you compare London Overground to what went before (Silverlink) there has been a huge improvement in the quality of the service that occurred alongside the move to staffed stations. There has also been an enormous increase in ridership.

 

[matt_world2004]

But from what’s been written above the station isn’t permanently staffed; there’s a roving staff member covering several locations.

Emerson Park also has circa. 250,000 people per year using it. Not many for London, granted, but a lot busier than some Merseyrail locations!

I think the staff member in question rides up and down the line on the train like a non door opening , non revenue raising guard