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Wouldn't a combined service of buses calling at stations (or former sites) and in-between feeder stops with a unified ticketing system and easy interchange make the best use of existing or potential public transport assets?
The train service could reasonably then be extended to Darley and even Rowsley without major work, serving both residential areas and tourists. If the traffic warranted it, then the A6 bridge could be contemplated.
The elephant in the room is the physical geography. Most of the action is in the Derwent and Wye Valleys which are necessarily steep and narrow, so there's little sideways room for anything extra. Hence the railway.
I've been at Lady Manners School and 6th Form College at the end of a day. There's a very well organised and large fleet of coaches parked waiting to load for villages and farms across a widely spread catchment area. I can't think how any of the 1300+ pupils would be better served by a train. Maybe a handful of rail enthusiasts.
Use of the Hope Valley line has been cited and I can confirm that maybe as many as 5 or 6 pupils may come into Sheffield by train for the 6th form at King Ecgberts School at Dore - but only until they get a car. Car share for all of them from the day the first in the year passes.
Residents in country areas like the Peak District do their utmost to retain independence of unreliable public transport, as do the majority of visitors. Would that it wasn't like that. Living on the edge of the National Park and within 15 minutes walk of Dore Station (Peak District P&R for a few) I can see why an hourly service that isn't reliable isn't too attractive.
This morning the 8.48 stopper from Piccadilly didn't run so neither did the 10.14 return from Sheffield, both popular trains for walkers. On Monday morning 3 successive stopping services were cancelled from Sheffield after an EMR service failed between Edale and Chinley!
Updated Sunday morning. Only 2 in 3 Hope Valley stopping services running today, the first of the day missing. That will wreck a few planned days out. Before trying to add new lines it would be far more helpful to run the existing timetabled trains on the ones we've still got.
I’m not sure whether I would consider a bus which only runs hourly, with no evening service, and an average end to end journey time of around 2hrs 10mins either fast or frequent. Having said that, I can‘t see any possibility of the railway reopening or justify the expense.
Hourly is pretty frequent for a route of that length and with that demand. It's very slow at around twice as long as a fast drive yes, but the train would be fairly similar and the bus can serve a lot more places that a train could, so on a generalised journey time basis it's going to be very similar.
Exactly. Just what i tried to post on Thursday.
How many are killed on our A roads annually compared to passengers on our railways. Many A roads are increasingly being subject to 40 or 50mph limits to reduce fatalities. What is the speed limit on the A6 in the Peak District?
That is the idea. RYR restored regular passenger trains to Okehampton with trains only from Exeter. The service was increased to hourly within six months due to overcrowding of commuters from a small town to a city and visitors from a city to a small town. The 500,000th passenger has just been carried in under two years. Way ahead of five years forecast.
Reinstating this line connects two cities but has the potential of connecting more cities by through train without trailing via Sheffield.
Busses or coaches cannot convey heavy luggage, wheelchairs, bicycles or prams whereas trains can. Fare stage buses on the Derby-Buxton service do not have toilets for a journey of over two hours and when they do it is extremely small, unstable, unsuitable for disabled passengers and usually down two or three very steep steps. I could never travel on a bus for that length of journey.
It is better standing in a crowded train than a crowded bus.
Which possibly gives some insight into the likely market for a rail service.
I would love the line to re-open. It has the potential to give a quick journey from the East Midlands to Manchester and remove the current Sheffield reversals. But the numbers are not there to do so.
It would be interesting to know how many use Sheffield on the Norwich/Nottingham-Liverpool service and how many are through passengers.
Surely that would indicate how many are being taken via Sheffield unnecesseriilly and what is the market for a direct Derby-Manchester line.
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The Trans-Peak used to operate to Nottingham and to Manchester at the other end of the route. The current service is not the quality operation it used to be and, like so many bus services nowadays, it has become holy - with large gaps between buses late afternoon, just when you want a bus after your day trip / walk etc. Departures from Buxton at 1415, 1555 and 1715 (1700 Sats and Suns).
It would be interesting to know how many use Sheffield on the Norwich/Nottingham-Liverpool service and how many are through passengers.
Surely that would indicate how many are being taken via Sheffield unnecesseriilly and what is the market for a direct Derby-Manchester line.
From my observations, about half the passengers stay on board at Sheffield; half get off there.
But if there were enough demand for direct East Midlands - Manchester, then the easiest way to deliver that would be to run trains round the Dore South chord, running direct from Chesterfield to Stockport and missing out Sheffield. That would save about 20 minutes for direct passengers. Trains could be flighted ahead or behind the South Pennine TPE services to reduce the impact on the timetable.
The fact the EMR don't offer that service, and don't seem to have any aspirations to do so, is probably evidence that a direct Derby - Stockport service via Matlock would not be worth it.
From my observations, about half the passengers stay on board at Sheffield; half get off there.
But if there were enough demand for direct East Midlands - Manchester, then the easiest way to deliver that would be to run trains round the Dore South chord, running direct from Chesterfield to Stockport and missing out Sheffield. That would save about 20 minutes for direct passengers. Trains could be flighted ahead or behind the South Pennine TPE services to reduce the impact on the timetable.
The fact the EMR don't offer that service, and don't seem to have any aspirations to do so, is probably evidence that a direct Derby - Stockport service via Matlock would not be worth it.
Even if the demand were there it is far from clear that there is reliable capacity via Dore South Curve, which has been lengthened at great expense to enable it to function as a regulating point for freight trains in either direction.
Neither is it clear that is a spare path to/from Manchester Piccadilly.
The route via the A6 takes around 43 miles, and anything from 1h 15m to 1h45m in typical conditions according to Google Maps. Isn't that fast for a local bus service on a rural route?
You're right that it could shave off 10 minutes without much spend through bus priority measures in Matlock, Belper and Derby. But it seems nobody's there to advocate for that.
The service is hourly which is good for a rural route of this distance. You're right it would be a lot more convenient if it were half-hourly during certain parts of the day, but again, there's apparently nobody advocating for more bus subsidy.
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This is an important question for anyone who wants the line to be rebuilt to answer. That'd be the response from the department if the business case didn't address why bus enhancements weren't considered instead, so you tell me why not.
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The Trans-Peak used to operate to Nottingham and to Manchester at the other end of the route. The current service is not the quality operation it used to be and, like so many bus services nowadays, it has become holy - with large gaps between buses late afternoon, just when you want a bus after your day trip / walk etc. Departures from Buxton at 1415, 1555 and 1715 (1700 Sats and Suns).
I completely agree that public funding really should be made available to extend some 199 Manchester Airport - Buxton services so that they run through to Bakewell and Matlock. Same goes for Nottingham, some journeys should be direct to Matlock and Bakewell - though it's a possibility these could take the form of another route rather than the TransPeak. For example the Rainbow One could have some journeys extended to Matlock or Bakewell.
I'd also like to see a handful of daily services between Macclesfield and Chesterfield, serving Buxton and Bakewell, with new bus stops installed at the three railway stations as they all currently have pretty confusing interchange.
I completely agree that public funding really should be made available to extend some 199 Manchester Airport - Buxton services so that they run through to Bakewell and Matlock. Same goes for Nottingham, some journeys should be direct to Matlock and Bakewell - though it's a possibility these could take the form of another route rather than the TransPeak. For example the Rainbow One could have some journeys extended to Matlock or Bakewell.
Interesting ideas. I’ve been wondering for some time how much of a market there would be for services from Nottinghamshire into the Peak District. Running via other routes from Nottingham such as the Rainbow One is an idea. In addition to Nottingham, even the towns of Ilkeston, Heanor, Ripley and Alfreton, actually in Derbyshire, have no or very poor services to Matlock and beyond. Stagecoach Chesterfield are taking over the running of the complicated mix of infrequent services from Alfreton and Ripley to Matlock. Perhaps this would have been better operated by Stagecoach Mansfield with a regular Mansfield-Alfreton-Matlock bus. The X17 seems to have been very successful with 2bph now running between Sheffield, Chesterfield and Matlock so perhaps a service from the Nottinghamshire direction could also work.
Bicycles, yes; but heavy luggage, wheelchairs and ‘prams’ (buggies, strollers, pushchairs) are all routinely carried on all types of buses and coaches. I took some heavy luggage on a bus yesterday, which already had wheelchairs and ‘prams’ on it when I boarded.
Bicycles, yes; but heavy luggage, wheelchairs and ‘prams’ (buggies, strollers, pushchairs) are all routinely carried on all types of buses and coaches. I took some heavy luggage on a bus yesterday, which already had wheelchairs and ‘prams’ on it when I boarded.
If there's actually a demand for a non-folding bicycle this is an easy adaptation to make on a bus with a single external door. You can even have two wheelchair spaces and a bike space if you have a longer bus, though then you may have very few low-floor seats.
Overall for those who can't go two hours without toilet access this country does really really badly. But that's a society-wide issue really and not just transport industry one.
Even if the demand were there it is far from clear that there is reliable capacity via Dore South Curve, which has been lengthened at great expense to enable it to function as a regulating point for freight trains in either direction.
Neither is it clear that is a spare path to/from Manchester Piccadilly.
The newly extended Dore chord is designed to 'shelter' freight traffic between the two mainlines - much to the irritation of residents alongside the line who're now having to endure Class 66s ticking over at the bottom of the garden (one case recorded for something like 88 minutes). That wouldn't fit with a regular passenger service.
The Hope Valley scheme was designed to provide a 3rd fast passenger path between Sheffield and Manchester, which it does along the Hope Valley. It has made no substantial difference to paths in through Stockport to Piccadilly. Cancelled additional work, particularly Platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly,leave no scope for running reliable extra services from anywhere - which is why we had to have the major recast after too much had been pushed through to the detriment of all.
But if there were enough demand for direct East Midlands - Manchester, then the easiest way to deliver that would be to run trains round the Dore South chord, running direct from Chesterfield to Stockport and missing out Sheffield. That would save about 20 minutes for direct passengers. Trains could be flighted ahead or behind the South Pennine TPE services to reduce the impact on the timetable.
The fact the EMR don't offer that service, and don't seem to have any aspirations to do so, is probably evidence that a direct Derby - Stockport service via Matlock would not be worth it.
Statistics for 2022-3 for Nottingham from RailwayData.co.uk show destination Manchester in 8th place with 88,906. No doubt more would use the train if there were a quicker service, but how many more? For Derby the total numbers to Manchester were far lower in 14th place with 21,740. (Piccadilly is the top destination from Sheffield with 441,562. Even Dore had 33,502.)
I completely agree that public funding really should be made available to extend some 199 Manchester Airport - Buxton services so that they run through to Bakewell and Matlock. Same goes for Nottingham, some journeys should be direct to Matlock and Bakewell - though it's a possibility these could take the form of another route rather than the TransPeak. For example the Rainbow One could have some journeys extended to Matlock or Bakewell.
I'd also like to see a handful of daily services between Macclesfield and Chesterfield, serving Buxton and Bakewell, with new bus stops installed at the three railway stations as they all currently have pretty confusing interchange.
Extending bus services too far to make very long routes creates unreliable services with poor time-keeping. Running buses from Buxton beyond Matlock to Derby is probably far enough.
Incidentally, the route number (58) of the former East Midlands Chesterfield-Buxton service is the same as that of the current High Peak Buxton-Macclesfield service. Is this mere coincidence, or was there ever a through service numbered 58 from Chesterfield to Macclesfield via Buxton?
Extending bus services too far to make very long routes creates unreliable services with poor time-keeping. Running buses from Buxton beyond Matlock to Derby is probably far enough.
Incidentally, the route number (58) of the former East Midlands Chesterfield-Buxton service is the same as that of the current High Peak Buxton-Macclesfield service. Is this mere coincidence, or was there ever a through service numbered 58 from Chesterfield to Macclesfield via Buxton?
East Midland operated the commercial Saturday only service 58, Chesterfield to Macclesfield, from Deregulation Day. Stagecoach East Midland 31 (SKY31Y), one of a pair of Leyland Tiger TRCTL11/3R coaches with ECW 51 seat bodywork that were new in January 1983, was photographed at Macclesfield bus station on 17 March 1990.
The bus does, of course, go rather nearer to the centres of Derby, Bakewell and Buxton in particular. It offers multiple stops (by request) in each town along its route. It also serves places like Harpur Hill, Chelmorton, Taddington and Ashford-in-the-Water in which material numbers of people actually live. Whereas the railway north of Matlock makes a poor fist of being close to places that it purported to serve, like Hassop and Great Longstone. Millers Dale is tiny.
They do substantially exactly the same job as one another in Ireland and Scotland so I don't understand why this is delusional. Have you ever been on a bus there?
So you're suggesting we spend hundreds of millions of pounds of public money so that a handful of students (Matlock Pop 10k, Buxton pop 90k, of which a tiny fraction will be at Uni at any one time and of that a tiny fraction will be going to the relevant unis) can take their washing home? If they're that pampered that their mum is still doing their washing for them, they'll be given a car to drive it anyway. This absolutely stinks of clutching at Straws.
I could see the framework of a case for taking over Peak Rail and extending to Bakewell. With a bit of fettling, some sensible timetabling and new trains with a bit more oomph, it's possible to run an hourly service with OTS in principle. You might even be able to set up a Spa Valley Railway type arrangement to let Peak Rail continue alongside the normal service independently. But now it's back to trying to be all things to all people as a through route that'll have loads of spare capacity but will also have a parade of heavy freight trains (from where to where don't ask, that detail's not important) and again the case falls apart as the costs mount up much faster than the benefits.
Yes, I was randomly asked to come up with a couple examples of where the railway might provide an opportunity for educational transport. That obviously means that those are the only passenger flows that will use the line.
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Bicycles, yes; but heavy luggage, wheelchairs and ‘prams’ (buggies, strollers, pushchairs) are all routinely carried on all types of buses and coaches. I took some heavy luggage on a bus yesterday, which already had wheelchairs and ‘prams’ on it when I boarded.
Bicycles, yes; but heavy luggage, wheelchairs and ‘prams’ (buggies, strollers, pushchairs) are all routinely carried on all types of buses and coaches. I took some heavy luggage on a bus yesterday, which already had wheelchairs and ‘prams’ on it when I boarded.
Well I share your frustration at the apparent inability to reopen simple lines. As I mentioned above, I can see a case for limited intervention for a stub line to bakewell on an hourly service.
Yes, I was randomly asked to come up with a couple examples of where the railway might provide an opportunity for educational transport. That obviously means that those are the only passenger flows that will use the line.
the problem is railways are about bulk, and so far whenever challenged nobody has yet demonstrated that a bulk flows, or an agglomeration of flows that might sum to bulk, exist for the through route.
Well I share your frustration at the apparent inability to reopen simple lines. As I mentioned above, I can see a case for limited intervention for a stub line to bakewell on an hourly service.
I also note Ireland closed a line as recently as this year.
the problem is railways are about bulk, and so far whenever challenged nobody has yet demonstrated that a bulk flows, or an agglomeration of flows that might sum to bulk, exist for the through route.
Well, I suppose Okehampton shows that the industry can do it when the correct incentives are in place.
Was that a permanent closure in Ireland ?
I don't think you could point to a single bulk flow on most of the regional railway, yet all of the individual journeys add up - even where (as with Okehampton and the Borders) the forecasters don't think so.
A factor that bus proponents nearly always fail to mention is the permanence issue. If a railway re-opens (at considerable expense, yes), people will then make life decisions based on its existence; they will in some cases make their work and house buying decisions on the assumption the railway will still be there in twenty years time. A train service can revitalise a town and its surrounding area.
No bus service will ever be trusted to keep the same route or minimum hourly frequency, or to even exist next year, let alone in a decade or two, no matter what promises or "guarantees" are made about its longevity.
Note this isn't to say this particular reopening is or isn't viable, or that this issue is highly relevant in this case, just to point out that in some respects, bus does not and cannot equal train.
No, I deal with reality, and the reality in this country is that medium to long distance travel is better served by train than bus.
This is why, where bus and train services run in parallel for such distances, trains still tend to be well loaded and the first choice for passengers - that's even with our less than perfect system of ropey rolling stock, industrial strife and overpriced fares.
Fortunately we don't have to, because we have economic appraisal to test what's good value for money. On low demand regional routes that's almost always buses, not trains.
Well I share your frustration at the apparent inability to reopen simple lines. As I mentioned above, I can see a case for limited intervention for a stub line to bakewell on an hourly service.
I also note Ireland closed a line as recently as this year.
the problem is railways are about bulk, and so far whenever challenged nobody has yet demonstrated that a bulk flows, or an agglomeration of flows that might sum to bulk, exist for the through route.
The last passenger line closed in Ireland was Waterford to Rosslare back in 2010 - but it is slated for reopening in the 'All Ireland Review', including the long lost direct curve towards Wexford (closed 1912!).
Limerick to Foynes is being reopened for freight traffic - this includes a complete dig-out, new drains and ballast, new high-quality CWR and the replacement / refurbishment of some quite substantial girder bridges over the various Shannon inlets. Cost 105m euros for 26 miles. Yet somehow Bere Alston to Tavistock (5.5 miles) would have cost £150/200m - yes I am still fuming.
I think the Foynes line wasn't formally closed was it? It was just derelict? So the capital spend was just for the rebuild, not for land, consultation and public consent?
Had BR mothballed, or been allowed to mothball, more lines, we'd have an easier time now, as was the case with Okehampton.
I think the Foynes line wasn't formally closed was it? It was just derelict? So the capital spend was just for the rebuild, not for land, consultation and public consent?
Had BR mothballed, or been allowed to mothball, more lines, we'd have an easier time now, as was the case with Okehampton.
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